? what do you perf. gm maf/ or 2g maf and afc 2

[nine5raptor]

The wideband tells you an a/f ratio. That is it. Many more factors come into play when tuning a car. You can destroy a motor at 11:1 or at 13:1. The wb will just tell what your a/f was when the motor went.

I am not saying a wb is not useful, I am just saying it is not perfection.

An optimal setup would be 4 widebands, 4 knock sensors, etc.

 

[HybridAWD]

exactly it will give you a more accurate reading that the narrowband and pocketlogger would. therefore.... end of all for a/f side that i see.

 

[HighPSI TSi Guy]

wideband and logger is the way to go...

 

[kpt4321]

It's about time the assclowns showed up. I've been waiting for you guys.

Originally posted by HighPSI TSi Guy
the following are the only advantages of the MAFT over the 2G MAF:

1 - bling bling
2 - flows more than an unhacked 2G MAF

the tuning ability is minimal, it is enough to "get by" but realistically an SAFC is needed with it.

if you don't plan on making over 600whp the 2G MAF is plenty

Realistically, a SAFC is not neded with it.

Have you tuned with a SAFC and a MAFT? No? Didn't think so. I was running both in the same car at the same time, so unlike you, I know how the two compare. I sold the SAFC.

These two things (SAFC + 2g MAF, MAFT + GM MAF) are about the same price; if you need a 2g MAF, that option will be more expensive. With price no longer being an issue, what is there to talk about? The only thing that remains are the points where the GM MAF is better. It's slightly less restrictive, it is more flexible, and it the end it can meter more air.

If two options cost the same amount of money, and have the same tuning capacity (I would actually say that the MAFT tunes better), then how can you recommend the one with lesser capabilities?

Next post, please.

 

[kpt4321]

Originally posted by HighPSI TSi Guy
MAFT works, the car will run, but not optimally at all.

Less optimally than a SAFC + 2g MAF? Why is that?

i don't care about a version that's not out yet, the man is asking about the version that IS out. so none of the "when this", "when that" bs. that's ricer talk.

STFU.

Some people here are already running the new version and can vouch for it. The fact of the matter is, it will be out very soon, and this is something to consider.

If you were buying a new car and a new, improved model was coming out, would you wait for it, or would you say "it's not out now so #### it."

The answer on that is clear, ask any who is or was on the waiting list for an Evo, before they were actually for sale.

hook your pile up to a wideband and have a look see and you'll know whats up.

Right, because the MAFT makes you A/F ratio different than a SAFC does? You can be anywhere from 6:1 to 15:1 with either of them. You have yet to make a point.

If you want 12:1, you can do it with either.

you guys swing from the nuts of that product and i have yet to figure out why. it's not a bad product but it's not really a damn godsend like you guys treat it.

Where did anyone say it was a godsend?

It's the best air metering system for a DSM, short of a standalone. It's also a cheaper replacement for the SAFC, with more utility.

You seem to "swing from the nuts" of the SAFC/VPC, why is that? I think they both suck.

while you may get your experience by answering the same n00b questions on internet forums all day, some of us actually get real world experience with cars.

Oh, you too? Good one!

 

[kpt4321]

Originally posted by anomalyinva
I have seen 11 or 12 people who tried to get the MAFT to work on their cars. 3 of them still run it. It was not for lack of trying. The technology, for whatever reason, from what i've seen dosen't work very well. If you want to vent, well then I don't know what to tell you. The VPC is proven, though more expensive, and is what is on my car.

Oh, good one.

Let's look at who DOES have a well running MAFT, shall we?

The fastest pump gas DSM even, for one.

Hal Landy said in one of the NABR-Public threads that he has a MAFT on every one of his cars.

Mine runs fine.

I have several friends who have run both the SAFC and the 2g MAF, and the MAFT. They're using the MAFT now.

Just because some punk-ass wannabe tuner can't get a part to work correctly, does not mean that it sucks.

If I had a dollar for every time someone had a problem with a VPC...

Our regional club list has a different person with a VPC issue on probably a monthly basis. Considering how long the VPC has been around, that's not very impressive. Every VPC car I have driven has had enough little "quirks" to piss me off pretty good.

Why is it that we allow the 900 dollar VPC to have bad qualities (shitty on cold starts, stumbles off idle, etc) but we don't let a newer part for one third the price with less issues get by?

 

[kpt4321]

Originally posted by HybridAWD
how many people do you know that tune, and i mean really tune, without a wideband?

That's a long list.

However, think of it this way: Widebands were not avaliable like they are now until recent years. Are you going to tell me that the poineers of DSMing in the early, mid, and late 90's were "not really tuning" when the were using just TMO dataloggers?

Call Buschur and Shep, and your local fast guys, and tell them that. I'm sure they will love it.

The three fastest guys in New England (10.7, 11.2, 11.3) don't regularily tune with widebands.

So basically it is the all end for tuning.... what gets more better than wideband?

"gets more better." Nice.

You can tune "more betterer" with just a Logger than you can with just a wideband. That means that it's not the "end all" for tuning.

I will agree that a wideband is a GREAT tool, and I am going to buy one. However, to claim that it is better than a logger is absurd.

 

[kpt4321]

Additonally:

Your claims are always "whine whine this guys car ran like crap with a MAFT."

Tell me this: How many people's cars run badly with a SAFC?

I know that I personally help several people PER WEEK on this forum alone who are having problems because their cars are waaaaay out of tune. Now, instead of blaming thia on the SAFC, we all know that it is becuase of user error. Why don't you look at other tuning products with that same mentality.

From now on, when someone has their SAFC set at +40% and they want to know why their car "sorta smells rich," we should tell them that it's because the SAFC is a shitty product. I mean, that's what you would do for the MAFT, right?


I feel much better now.

 

[92TsiTalon]

here we go....i can offer a test car. right now im running the safc with 2g mas. it sucks. 90% of the time i run 0 knock, with massive amounts of timing advance. that's cool, but this setup is so quirky that every once in awhile it whigs out (of course, i've been working on tuning for a long time....and its taken about 4 months just to get it to run "right"). before you start in with the "why dont you use a wideband" bullcrap....i have. i had scott from FP ride along w/ me and watch the wideband and we tuned to 11.8 across the board. sounds good right? no. this setup is just too strange. i have to lean it out a bunch to not get knock, which gets me way too much timing advance.

i have the gm maft on the way, and im about to chuck this crappy safc away and use the safr for any "minor" adjustments. ill let you know how much better the maft works in a few days, being as i am quite a competent mechanic...especially on the electrical side of the house.

kpt, how do i know which version i am getting? do i have to buy another one for the new version if its not what im getting?

 

[kpt4321]

I don't work for them, so I'd rather not talk about that sort of thing in public. Send me a PM.

 

[Cirus_93TSI]

i have a 2g mas and safc in my car, and it sucks royaly.
my car runs good on most warn days, but the colder it gets the worse it runs. fuel trims are all within an acceptable range at any temp and i have yet to see any knock, but it runs like crap some days unless i adjust the settings.

but alot of this can be attributed to my lower honey combs being hacked out, had the hacked 2g mas when i bought the car. im really about to buy a 3" gm maf and translator and run it in a drawthrough set up if dyno tuning wit the wideband doesnt make it run any better.

 

[HighPSI TSi Guy]

you know, there's a reason SAFC moved on from knobs to digital... BECAUSE IT"S BETTER. 12 points vs 3 points.. hmmm.... you sold your SAFC because you needed the money, and because your car SEEMS to run ok with the MAFT..

did i hit a nerve when i pointed out that you wing from the balls of the MAFT?

i have tuned more cars with a MAFT and SAFC setup than you probably see in a week.. 3000GTs, Stealths, DSMs, etc. the MAFT is not bad but it's own tuning is lacking, you are blinded with the emporor's new clothes effect just like the ricers that thing hondas "look hot yo". you want to believe it so bad you do. so whatever you gotta tell yourself man, i run the 2G MAF and SAFC and it runs beautifully, friends of mine have dyno tested the setups back to back and recorded minimal hp gains (that includes wideband tuning for both) on a car already making 440+whp.

maybe the new version is better, maybe it's not, it's still a step back... going from accurate digital control to a damn knob.. think about it

best metering system short of a standalone is a VPC..

it's a matter of fine tuning Vs. ballpark tuning.. MAFT gets in the ballpark no problem.. but it doesn't have the fine tuning capabilities that even the first SAFC had.

you are not an idiot, but you are a fool. the e-racer thug attitude has got to go. you are not the elite 4g63 master you pretend to be on here.. now run along kiddie and go talk about MAFT tuning to your friends in the stock turbo e-thug club of america while i work on the fast cars.

 

[HighPSI TSi Guy]

Originally posted by Cirus_93TSI
i have a 2g mas and safc in my car, and it sucks royaly.
my car runs good on most warn days, but the colder it gets the worse it runs. fuel trims are all within an acceptable range at any temp and i have yet to see any knock, but it runs like crap some days unless i adjust the settings.

but alot of this can be attributed to my lower honey combs being hacked out, had the hacked 2g mas when i bought the car. im really about to buy a 3" gm maf and translator and run it in a drawthrough set up if dyno tuning wit the wideband doesnt make it run any better.

a hacked MAF will never run as good as a full MAF.. i made 427whp on a hacked 1G MAF, car was GREAT WOT but off throttle it was a pain.. swapped to a stock 2G MAF and it's ran smoother than a damn stock car ever since

 

[kpt4321]

Originally posted by HighPSI TSi Guy
you know, there's a reason SAFC moved on from knobs to digital... BECAUSE IT"S BETTER. 12 points vs 3 points.. hmmm....

So, if more points are better, then the SAFC is better than your almighty VPC, right? Because, in case you forgot, the VPC and the MAFT have the same number of knobs.

Not to mention that systems like the E-Manage and the SAFR also have more breakpoints than the SAFC does.

And, the SAFCII has more breakpoints than the SAFCI, yet most people still stick with 1.

RPM breakpoints are not the end all and be all for tuning, and aren't usually even necessary. Not many people really have big changes every 1 thousand rpm.

you sold your SAFC because you needed the money, and because your car SEEMS to run ok with the MAFT..

While I do appreciate you telling me why I sold my SAFC....

I didn't need the money. I just wasn't using the SAFC.

It does run fine, it doesn't just "seem" to. But then again, just like why I sold the SAFC, I'm sure you know better than I what is going on with my own car.

Hell, since you're so smart, why don't you just tell me what fuel and timing maps I should run?

did i hit a nerve when i pointed out that you wing from the balls of the MAFT?

Nope, why would you think that?

you are blinded with the emporor's new clothes effect just like the ricers that thing hondas "look hot yo". you want to believe it so bad you do.

What the hell does this even mean? I think that the SAFC "looks hot yo" so I use it?

If after installing it, my car had run worse, I would have junked it. That's painfully obvious.

so whatever you gotta tell yourself man, i run the 2G MAF and SAFC and it runs beautifully, friends of mine have dyno tested the setups back to back and recorded minimal hp gains (that includes wideband tuning for both) on a car already making 440+whp.

We've gotten into this argument before, remember? The MAFT is not all about top end horsepower gains, and I urge you to find anywhere that I said it was. You can save yourself the time by realizing right now that I never made such a claim.

maybe the new version is better, maybe it's not, it's still a step back... going from accurate digital control to a damn knob.. think about it

Once again, VPC's have knobs. Should I find a picture to remind you?

best metering system short of a standalone is a VPC..

Yeah. I think my favorite part about the VPC is how it stops reporting airflow after about 1800-2000 Hz. That's a totally sweet way to "meter" air... just pretend it does not exist.

Also, the way they don't tend to work very well with 2g's shows how awesome they are.

And, last but not least, let's use your logic again: The VPC has knobs, so it must suck.

you are not an idiot, but you are a fool. the e-racer thug attitude has got to go. you are not the elite 4g63 master you pretend to be on here.. now run along kiddie and go talk about MAFT tuning to your friends in the stock turbo e-thug club of america while i work on the fast cars.

1. Why do you have a problem with people running stock turbos? I'm sorry that I cannot afford the latest 2,000 dollar GT series turbo, and I guess that must mean that I also don't have any knowledge.

2. What is with this e-thug crap? I have yet to make any more e-thug comments than you. It's two people in an argument, what makes me the e-thug? Last time I checked, I was the one using logical evidence, and you were the one with a bias for no obvious reason. You have yet to answer any of my questions about that.

3. I never claimed to be an "elite 4G63 master," did I? I really enjoy your attitude of how you are more intelligent than me. Maybe you should be careful before you act as such, because I have ye to see anything impressive come from your side of the fence. I've been contributing to this website long enough to feel confident that I know what I am talking about.

 

[HighPSI TSi Guy]

while you argue all the wrong points in your response, i respect the effort

my attitude is that which is thrown at me... you use the e-thug attitude arguing with me so that's what you get back. i have nothing against stock turbos, i ran one for a while... it was slow.. unfortunately i don't know anything because i don't whore up the tuning forums daily like you do.

my point about the AFC was not as much the break points (although 3 is NOT enough, 8 is enough, 12 is better, the 16x16 of the e-manage is even better.

if you wanted advice on fuel and timing maps i'd help you, but i know that you don't need help there so i'll leave that alone.

i know the VPC has knobs, and only as many as the MAFT. that's why i'd use a SAFC or E-manage with it if i ran a VPC.

I'm sure the VPC sucks. it's only ran 8 second passes (not sure if he was still running it on the 7 second pass or not). man that's slow.


like i said, i know you are smart, but you are a fool in your behavior. i come on here every once in a while to look for interesting threads and all i see is some douchebags striving for attention by pretending to know everything.. calm yourself down and have a civil conversation for once.

maybe one day i'll know as much as a teenager with a keyboard and calculator

 

[BAD-TSi]

Originally posted by HybridAWD
Im not even sure what to say about your comment on the wideband, how many people do you know that tune, and i mean really tune, without a wideband? Using a wideband in on road conditions will enable more accurate fuel tuning than narrowband. So using narrowband and the p-logger isnt gonna be as accurate. So basically it is the all end for tuning.... what gets more better than wideband?

Werd! What the hell is this guy talkin about??

Plus why the hell would you SELL your SAFC. I'll be running a MAFT with a 50trim on my car this summer, but I shure as shit wont be sellin my S-AFC and tune with that dumbass box. You gotta be nuts.

 

[LandoAWD]

Please cut the back and forth attacks, y'all. I hate to see two knowledgeable members bicker like this.

 

[kpt4321]

Originally posted by HighPSI TSi Guy
while you argue all the wrong points in your response, i respect the effort

I have a solid, logically based response to the vast majority of your ideas. You don't answer any of my questions, and you keep saying the same thing over and over again. I'm sure the people reading this thread can see that.

i have nothing against stock turbos, i ran one for a while... it was slow..

The 14b is NOT a slow turbo.

i know the VPC has knobs, and only as many as the MAFT. that's why i'd use a SAFC or E-manage with it if i ran a VPC.

So wait a second...

It's ok that you can't even use the VPC by itself. It's ok that it costs 900 bucks (give or take) and that is doesn't have the resolution to work by itself. You will still call it the ultimate air metering system for a DSM.

Yet, when we have something that's more accurate, has a larger range, and is more versitile, your main complaint is that you need a SAFC with it (which I disagree with, but that is not the point)?

Why is it ok for the VPC to require a SAFC/GCC, and you still think it is the best, but then you turn around and talk about how crappy the MAFT is because it has that same requirement?

I'm sure the VPC sucks. it's only ran 8 second passes (not sure if he was still running it on the 7 second pass or not). man that's slow.

What's your point?

The hacked 1g MAF has run 10's, and you yourself said in an earlier post that it sucked at part throttle and partial boost.

I could make a pretty big list of parts that people agreed "sucked" but still ran a fast time. How about the Mutt/ETE turbos? It's fairly well known that they do not work very well, and not many of the older guys will run them. They have run some pretty fast times though...

like i said, i know you are smart, but you are a fool in your behavior. i come on here every once in a while to look for interesting threads and all i see is some douchebags striving for attention by pretending to know everything.. calm yourself down and have a civil conversation for once.

maybe one day i'll know as much as a teenager with a keyboard and calculator

For those of you still reading this:

Notice that I have yet to throw around any silly personal insults, and every single post I'm getting shit about how I am a fool, a douchebag, and how I don't know anything because I'm a kid with a calculator.

It's pretty obvious that I've stuck to arguing about the facts, which is something that you apparently can't handle.

Can you do be a favor, and try to keep the personal crap out of this? We're here to talk about DSM's, we're not here for you to call me names. It certainly doesn't help your cause.

 

[kpt4321]

Originally posted by BAD-TSi
Werd! What the hell is this guy talkin about??

Two things:

1. First, go read my response to this comment.

2. Go call Buschur Racing, and tell him that when he was the first car into the 13's, 12's, 11's, 10's, and 9's "back in the day," when he was tuning without a wideband, that he wasn't really tuning. I'm sure he will set you straight.

Plus why the hell would you SELL your SAFC. I'll be running a MAFT with a 50trim on my car this summer, but I shure as shit wont be sellin my S-AFC and tune with that dumbass box. You gotta be nuts. [/B]

If it's a "dumbass box" then why the hell would you use it?

Since you don't even have one on the car yet and you haven't tried tuning it, I'm pretty sure your opinion as to whether or not you need the SAFC is useless.

 

[LandoAWD]

Originally posted by kpt4321

Can you do be a favor, and try to keep the personal crap out of this? We're here to talk about DSM's, we're not here for you to call me names.

This would be a favor to all of us. Lets keep it as adult as we can.

Thanks, and carry on.

 

[kpt4321]

Originally posted by LandoAWD
Please cut the back and forth attacks, y'all. I hate to see two knowledgeable members bicker like this.

Sorry Lando. I know this is getting out of hand.

I am sick and tired of people putting down a good product. I know from firsthand use, running one and tuning a bunch of these, that they work well.

I have not said ONCE that the 2g maf / SAFC combo is bad. Not once. Every single time I get into this argument, I'm just trying to help people to realize that the MAFT is *also* a good option, and they you can't disregard it just because of what one person says.

 

[LandoAWD]

Originally posted by kpt4321
Sorry Lando. I know this is getting out of hand.

I am sick and tired of people putting down a good product. I know from firsthand use, running one and tuning a bunch of these, that they work well.

I have not said ONCE that the 2g maf / SAFC combo is bad. Not once. Every single time I get into this argument, I'm just trying to help people to realize that the MAFT is *also* a good option, and they you can't disregard it just because of what one person says.

It's not problem, just keep it civil.

I'm willing to try anything to give me more day-to-day drivability, so this thread intrests me. I just can't ever find a "sweet spot" on the Blaha...except at WOT

 

[BAD-TSi]

Originally posted by kpt4321
If it's a "dumbass box" then why the hell would you use it?

Since you don't even have one on the car yet and you haven't tried tuning it, I'm pretty sure your opinion as to whether or not you need the SAFC is useless.

OK genius, understand me here. I'm running the MAFT setup to replace my 1G MAS, not to tune my car. Tuning with it is a poochscrew from what I hear EVERYWHERE. So I will still be relying on my S-AFC. And I would never even THINK to take it out of my car, thats just stupid. Why would you want LESS tunability in your car?? Honestly.

And about the wideband...Yeah shure the guys back-in-the-day weren't using widebands and the cars were makin power, but not as mutch as they could have been with a wideband. But what I'm really curious to know is, what IS better than a wideband in your opinion?? A autometer A/F gauge??

And for your sake I'll ask DB is he thinks that a MAFT is a superior replacement for the VPC as well.

 

[HighPSI TSi Guy]

Originally posted by kpt4321
wah wah wah

i never said the MAFT was crap, i am not "trying to put down a good product" i just said it was not as good of a tuning device as you seem to think it is. the SAFC has more points and is more precise. the MAFT is NOT precise enough.. yes, it is good enough to get a decent tune but to get a GOOD tune you need more. the knobs are 3 or 5% each click if i remember correctly, which is just not close enough.. 5% is huge.

enough to run the car but not enough to tune WELL. that is my opinion.

as for the VPC arguement... you can't outflow a VPC and i'll leave it at that. if you can find a way to outflow an empty pipe i'd like to see it. cost is not the issue and i never considered it to be a part of the arguement. in the respect of cost yes the MAFT is a pretty good deal i guess. there is a good reason everyone usually switches to MAP based setups when they go standalone.

and if you go back and read you'll find your buddy mr. raptor was the one that started the personal attacks

and a 14b is a slow turbo.

 

[d_tsiawd]

hey hipsi gotta question for you i have a 2g mas with all honeycombs out i know its bad but i bought it with 2 missing anyways so i took them all out and i am going to have 780cc with an rs60 from agp turbo i was wondering if the turbo would max out the mas. i have the odler gen safc and my fuel settings are off the chart i think i have a leak somewhere but i was just curious if it wa spossible of maxing out the mas let mek now thanks