What are the limits without tuning?

[killer1GDSM]

Ok, well after almost a year of having my car and being a part of this great forum. I have decided to do a sort of, im sure not unknown, but rarely used idea.

I want to push the limits of the 1st gen fwd eclipse, WITHOUT TUNNING.
Yes you read it right. I see almost every post on this forum eventuly has the word or words "time for dsmlink", or " you need to get a way of tunning". Which is great and yes any car with more than stock anything should probably have some sort of aftermarket tunning, but really, Does the 1g need dsmlink to produce simi-big horsepower? Thats what i want to find out.

So with all that said I am asking for members of the sight who have done something of the same concept or in the same area of what i want to accomplish, or who at least have been around DSM's for more than a few weeks. so to start of with one question.

What are the limits of a 1g without tuning?

I am going to compile all the data I receive from anyone who post on this thread and put it all in a single thread somewhere eventually and go from there.

Thanks all in advance, Dustin.

p.s. I made this a long winded post to weed out anyone who doesnt want to read, which hopefully allow the people who do read it post accuratly as possable.

 

[clipto]

I hear what your saying, but the limit is 0, the first thing you should do after maintance is getting tuning software.You can add all the turbo's and injectors and stuff you want but without a way to tune it nothing is going to work right.Just doing exhaust intake and free mods is about all you can get away with.There are other alternitves to tuning besides ecmlink if you look around, such as chips, safc w/ logging software but you can't beat dsmlink.

 

[habitatguy187]

Basically 550s and a 2g mas. Used this combo with no tuning to trap 114mph in the 1/4

 

[killer1GDSM]

@clipto
Come on now, the limit is not zero there is some HP to be added with just the basic/free mods, therefor the linit is not 0. Loggers dont really count at a tuning device, since they have nothing to do with changing programs within the stock ecu, but they are usefull i plan to get one in close future (tuiton reembursment coming in soon ).

Basically 550s and a 2g mas. Used this combo with no tuning to trap 114mph in the 1/4

Thank you, this is usefull information. But I know there has to be more! I currently have a 2g mas installed but i have not gotten bigger injects quite yet, help in the future though.

 

[YanDsm]

Well, the limit is the max hp stock injectors can handle but like "clipto" said a tuning device is a must. I'm sure that dsmlink on an almost stock car can give you easy to get hp. Don't waste your time with safc or shit like that, buy the best and buy once. "DSMLINK" very cheap price for all that you can do with, you 'll never need another tuning device for your car.

 

[bryanwheat]

Without any tuning the 550's with the 2g maf is as far as you are going to go. You can get an eprom and a custom chip for bigger injectors, but they aren't always 100 percent correct. Why are you so against having to tune it? That is the best money spent on a car. You will get better performance from a bone stock car just by leaning it out a bit.

 

[Airsign89]

Couldn't you use the 3g mas with even bigger than 650cc injectors and have an overly rich top-end and a decently stoich idle? Oh and timing would be completely advanced in positions. I think even with that an afc/chip would be ideal, but since your looking for NO tuning, it doesn't matter. Mods/wisemen please correct this if its wrong.

 

[clipto]

@clipto
Come on now, the limit is not zero there is some HP to be added with just the basic/free mods, therefor the linit is not 0. Loggers dont really count at a tuning device, since they have nothing to do with changing programs within the stock ecu, but they are usefull i plan to get one in close future (tuiton reembursment coming in soon ).

I was refering logger with safc combo in my post, but yes there are a few things but my main goal in saying this is it safe to do?Is the motor to lean or rich?Is there knock?What is the point of having a car with all these go fast parts if its on a flat bed or not running right.So without tuning you can't utalise the full potential or just plain having it run right senario.The logger is a wonderful thing especialy on a 1g so you know what is going on in the motor, plus you can get one super cheap for like $50 if that.In my opionion you can go as far as you want with mods but no further when changing the volume of air and fuel withouth tuning wich is all you really need to do on these cars to make power.Yes you can lighten up the car and free up engine power by removing the a/c and run a bigger exhaust or bigger air filter but you can only go so far and the distance is not that far.My moto has always been maintance and tuning is horsepower, you can add all the stuff you want in the world on your car you can get a gt42r but if your motor blows becuase you forgot your timing belt or didnt apply the right fuel for the air consumption you are at a dead end.

 

[bryanwheat]

Couldn't you use the 3g mas with even bigger than 650cc injectors and have an overly rich top-end and a decently stoich idle? Oh and timing would be completely advanced in positions. I think even with that an afc/chip would be ideal, but since your looking for NO tuning, it doesn't matter. Mods/wisemen please correct this if its wrong.

Because the scaling is different you could end up with something that runs good at idle, but runs too rich or too lean up top or the other way around.

 

[dsmlover07]

Thats a nice set up 2g maf 550 ran that before the maft came, then link, my logger then helped a lot with the tune, and wideband.

 

[MichaelSuch]

Like everyone else said 2g maf, 550's, fuel pump and run as much boost as you can until you run out of fuel.

 

[killer1GDSM]

ok, so far i see only thing possable to do is 550's and 2g mas, please a wiseman/mod say something i know there is more to do without dsmlink! The DSM world has been around for over two decades now, there has to be more than just 550's 2g mas and exhaust. Dsm link wasnt truly avalible untell 2002, so what was done to the 1g's for 10 years? I know other standalones but none the less, other things were done, and you cannot say there wasnt anything done because any dsm owner WILL want more regardless how much they already have.

 

[clipto]

True but after many years and money wasted and simplicty implemented man made dsmlink to ease the pain of the dsm broken hearts from engine failure.There are always new things to test to see what you can do withouth tuning, just remember without it nothing is going to run 100% right.

 

[91stocker]

If you have an eprom, you could set up Jackal for fairly cheap. I see ostrich with sensors for sale all the time for $100.

Complete How-To

 

[bombDSM]

Before link I believe most people used an afc to tune fuel.

 

[clipto]

Before link I believe most people used an afc to tune fuel.

True that but still they refered to tuning software to modify there dsm.Sure can build a computer but withouth software to run it and tell it what to do such like safc or dsmlink you get no where.

 

[MichaelSuch]

Before link I believe most people used an afc to tune fuel.

Correct and the HKS VPC. Back then they had to use some type of piggyback. People didn't just go throwing on 1000cc injectors with no way to tune for the added fuel. Well I'm sure some people did but their car ran like crap.

Bolt ons can only take you so far. When it comes to fuel and airflow, some sort of piggyback system or ecu modification (custom chip) will be REQUIRED for the car to run properly and be somewhat reliable. You can't get around that.

 

[rommel rojasgsx]

Are u trying to break ## motor just to see how far a 1g goes without tune. Also if u want to find out what they were doing 15 years ago. Theres a very good tread about dsm 1/4 time list from back in the day.

 

[killer1GDSM]

Are u trying to break ## motor just to see how far a 1g goes without tune. Also if u want to find out what they were doing 15 years ago. Theres a very good tread about dsm 1/4 time list from back in the day.

No no no, my goal is to bring as much out of the stock computer system, dsm wouldnt have put it in there cars if it wasnt capable of great things. I just want to prove that it doesnt take dsmlink, aem, or any standalones to make a 1g or even 2g's for this matter, to make more than stock hp or torc and even greater drivabilty without stock parts and no tuning. I guess I will go ahead and tell you all now so you know my reasons behind this,
My great great great grandfather was supossedly a 'Computer technition' and assistant to director of research and development for DSM. I found this out last week when I looked into my family history for a college term paper. Dont even start with saying bs ither becasue I know you will go there. I have or will have as soon as they are released to me, documents of his employment.

 

[clipto]

Just remember the stock ecu is tuned for the stock injectors and air intake to the motor, so changing anything would result in tuning.Sure you can try to mix and max 2g maf with 550cc injectors but that's really it even doing that I would still get something to tune with.Sorry not trying to blow your exsperiment but it can only go so far.Keep looking you may find some magic tricks along the way.Only way can stay stock ecu to what you mostly want would be ecu flash on like 98-99 eclipse ecu's, still stock but have to adjust the changed you make to fuel and what not but you don't have to buy dsmlink if thats what your means is.

 

[jrohner]

The limit without tuning is FUEL CUT!

 

[bryanwheat]

No no no, my goal is to bring as much out of the stock computer system, dsm wouldnt have put it in there cars if it wasnt capable of great things. I just want to prove that it doesnt take dsmlink, aem, or any standalones to make a 1g or even 2g's for this matter, to make more than stock hp or torc and even greater drivabilty without stock parts and no tuning. I guess I will go ahead and tell you all now so you know my reasons behind this,
My great great great grandfather was supossedly a 'Computer technition' and assistant to director of research and development for DSM. I found this out last week when I looked into my family history for a college term paper. Dont even start with saying bs ither becasue I know you will go there. I have or will have as soon as they are released to me, documents of his employment.

The stock eprom ecu is capable of what ever you want to do if you have a chip burner or a moated ostrich, but without tuning the ecu, a piggyback or standalone the 550's are as big as you can go, that is how it is.

 

[dsmlover07]

Gonna have to tune, for your set up, get the proper mods for your goals.

 

[95talongirl]

The limit is turn the boost up until the engine starts making noise, then back off a few psi. ...

But in reality, cars without having some sort of tuning capability usually end up running like crap and thus slower than stock. This also depends on what's been done to the car. The stock ECU is setup for a smaller turbo with drivability in mind. Typically, you'll run into fuel cut issues or a car that runs stupid rich due to the injectors being too large with nothing to control them. Running rich like that does not make power, either.

Also keep in mind that these cars are distubutor-less, so you cannot even play with the timing that way. They are very dependent on a computer to run and make power.

All in all, if you're going to spend the time to try to build a car to make some power, then drop some money on something to tune it. This is a platform with a ton of aftermarket support, as well.... so why not take advantage of that?

I know for a fact that my car with a 16g, FMIC, larger injectors and pump, and a GM MAF ran like absolute garbage before tuning it. It was embarrassing.

 

[goodbuds]

the limit without tuning is the junk yard.

i know your probably short on cash.. so do your research and buy the few parts your going to need . mbc, premium gas, and a new oil change. you have to be more specific if you want a real answer.
or i could say 165whp limit with out tune.