Vtrim turbo took a shit

[ThingyNess]

Just out of curiosity, what's your source on the fact that the 3065 will net you more power than a 3052 at the 20psi range?

If you happen to have a set of dyno plots from the same car, with doing nothing but swapping CHRAs, I'd love to see it.

I happen to have both a 3052 and 3065, and eventually I'm going to put the argument to rest and have them both dynoed on my car on the same day by doing *nothing* but swapping CHRAs, but as of yet I've never seen a proper, direct comparison.

Keep in mind also that there are *tons* of different 20gs out there. TD05H, TD05H clipped, TD06, TD06 clipped, TD06H, etc. Most bastard 20gs are designed to look 100% stock, and I have seen some even keep the same 6cm turbine housing.

The SBR bastard 20g, for example, uses the TD05H unclipped turbine wheel, which will have the most back pressure of any 20g option. The absolute basic Forced Performance 20g with the TD05H has a 10 degree clip.

20gs can be built a ton of different ways by a ton of different vendors, and lots of them are packing giant TD06h turbine wheels. Direct comparisons are very hard to come by. Usually the people who are running the bigger TD06/06h turbine wheels want nothing to do with the recontoured 14b or 16g housing, and opt for the bigger and higher A/R 20g housing for better efficiency and higher maximum flow.

I totally agree with the statements about turbine wheel & housing size, changing VE,etc but I'm curious about this compressor wheel statement & not seeing any gains by switching to a larger/more efficient comp wheel/housing combo. Take for example the FP30 series of turbo's. Both the FP3052 & the 3065 use the exact same turbine wheel & housing so no differences there. Difference's are in the comp wheel & housing. For example, on the same setup running 20-22 psi, which is well within each turbo's effiency range, the 3065 will net you greater power. If your statement is true why does the larger 3065 net more power?

Another example would be the bastard series of turbos where they cram a 20g comp wheel into the smaller 16g housing. This turbo shares the same turbine wheel/housing as a std 20g but I don't see them neting the same power as a straight up 20g?

 

[95blackGsTurbo]

All 16g turbo's use the same turbine wheel. They just change the compressor wheel.

Small 16g, 7CM, 5200 last 4 digits of Compressor Housing
Big 16g, 7CM thick wall housing, Larger Compressor Wheel, 1420 last 4 Digits
Evo 3 Big 16g, 7CM thin wall housing (rounded), Slightly Larger Compressor wheel than regular big 16g, last 4 digits 1470.

So when you compare a S16G to an E316G you can change a lot just by changing the compressor wheel. But with changing the wheel you get thinner and thinner housings.

 

[TurboAnything]

That makes no sense the thick and thin wall design is the turbine side. The turbine wheel is the same for all 3. (TDO5H)

 

[DirtyBirdRacing]

Ok, I will have to think about this while i'm at work, but I think I understand now. I was on the right path I guess just a little bit cloudy on the details. Thanks a lot for clearing that up.

Bill

 

[daren_p]

Just out of curiosity, what's your source on the fact that the 3065 will net you more power than a 3052 at the 20psi range?

If you happen to have a set of dyno plots from the same car, with doing nothing but swapping CHRAs, I'd love to see it.

I happen to have both a 3052 and 3065, and eventually I'm going to put the argument to rest and have them both dynoed on my car on the same day by doing *nothing* but swapping CHRAs, but as of yet I've never seen a proper, direct comparison.

Keep in mind also that there are *tons* of different 20gs out there. TD05H, TD05H clipped, TD06, TD06 clipped, TD06H, etc. Most bastard 20gs are designed to look 100% stock, and I have seen some even keep the same 6cm turbine housing.

The SBR bastard 20g, for example, uses the TD05H unclipped turbine wheel, which will have the most back pressure of any 20g option. The absolute basic Forced Performance 20g with the TD05H has a 10 degree clip.

20gs can be built a ton of different ways by a ton of different vendors, and lots of them are packing giant TD06h turbine wheels. Direct comparisons are very hard to come by. Usually the people who are running the bigger TD06/06h turbine wheels want nothing to do with the recontoured 14b or 16g housing, and opt for the bigger and higher A/R 20g housing for better efficiency and higher maximum flow.

My only source would be guys that have owned both FP30 turbo's & said they made more power when switching to the 65, even on lower bost. But no, I don't have back to back dyno pulls to prove either way. If you have both turbos, I would very much like to see the results of this kind of test.

As for the 20g, I know they can be had 100 different ways. Obviously I was refering to same turbine housing/wheel setups or that would defeat the whole purpose of my statement.

That makes no sense the thick and thin wall design is the turbine side. The turbine wheel is the same for all 3. (TDO5H)

I believe the fact that he was refering to was that all 16g turbos use the same compressor cover, just the housing/inlet has be machined slightly larger with each larger compressor wheel (or thinner housing as he put it). This is true look at the inlet of a small16g vs an EvoIII16g & you will see the difference he's talking about.

This brings up another comparision, the 16g varients. They too use the same turbine housing/wheel combo but the evoIII always seems to make more power at a boost level that is useful with all the turbo's in the series. Again don't have back to back tests but you don't usually hear guys saying I moved from a small 16g to an evoIII & am making the exact same power. Dyno pulls with different guys always seem to work out this same way, with the evoIII making more power. And no were not talking at high boost levels as obviously thats not a fair comparison, sorta like compairing the T25 & the 50 trim @ 25 psi, which is completely pointless.

 

[dsm-onster]

FWIW, I've gone from at the ceiling of the small16G to the midrange potential of an 18G w/ zero gain at 23 psi. W/ a cam upgrade, the small 16G COMPRESSOR is all but spent at this point . . . The TD05H wheel and 7cm^2 housing is just right for a small 16G. I begins to get in the way at the e3 16G horsepower range. . . I say that alot of guys w/ evo3 turbos could stand to gain quite a bit by swapping out 7 cm^2 housings for 8 cm^2 housings. . . Or spending the money on installing td06h turbine wheels and cutting the 7 cm^2 housings to fit. The later is more expensive than the first but both would be cheaper than upgrading the whole turbo. . . Nevertheless, there's a HUGE difference between a td05H 20G and a td06H 20G at the end of the dyno run. I ditched the 7cm^2 housing on the 18g and ran a BEP housing and noted A HUGE positive change. . .I sold all of it before heading to the track (this WAS my DD). . .

 

[Maglin]

Wow so much right and wrong info I don't know where to start. Well first off. People that kill their v-trim turbo's are usually those that bought a turbo first and supporting mods later. Ran to low a boost level and the compressor was surging a lot probably with a lot of stall was well. Big turbo's and low boost will easily stall as they are not spinning close to what they should be. Surge and stall kills turbo's. People always point to oiling but it's really almost never the cause. If you run more oil pressure ie.. off the filter housing it gives you more of an oil cushion for the shaft to butt up against during surge and stall but wont' stop if from eventually killing it's self. Personally I won't run turbo's from the filter housing any longer. Their is no need and usually it ends up pushing to much pressure and oil out the hot side.

dsm-onster is pretty much correct in his statements. But not entirely. You have a few factors to consider and they are seen on a compressor map. The left side is pressure/atmospheric pressure. It's the easiest way to explain it. That is why 20 psi @ 4,000 ft outputs less air then @ sea leval. And it's easy to see on the compressor map. You can see how much extra flow you get at a given pressure with it being constant. Usually the increase in power is from not over heating the charge with a smaller compressor. Larger compressors are not compressing as much to kept your desired boost level. It's the only way I can think to explain it. I believe you can get like 1 hp/-1* drop in temp. It might not be totally right but it's close. So you drop you IAT's by 20* you pick up 20 HP and thus the extra power. Volume remains the same but air mass increases.

I think that is as far as I'm going to go atm. dsm-onster has most of his facts straight. Seen it in other posts. Their is a lot of stuff that is left up to opinion and can go either way. Also FYI the mitsu TH's are just not big enough to allow a lot of flow in the upper RPM range. They really choke. The 8cm housings are decent, but a T3 housing is a lot better. Fast spool was the design goal and it's has decent mid range flow to support power.

 

[dsm-onster]

Wow so much right and wrong info I don't know where to start. Well first off. People that kill their v-trim turbo's are usually those that bought a turbo first and supporting mods later. Ran to low a boost level and the compressor was surging a lot probably with a lot of stall was well. Surge and stall kills turbo's. People always point to oiling but it's really almost never the cause. If you run more oil pressure ie.. off the filter housing it gives you more of an oil cushion for the shaft to but up against during surge and stall but wont' stop if from eventually killing it's self. Personally I won't run turbo's from the filter housing any longer. Their is no need and usually it ends up pushing to much pressure and oil out the hot side.

I couldn't agree more. . .

Usually the increase in power is from not over heating the charge with a smaller compressor. Larger compressors are not compressing as much to kept your desired boost level.

Maglin, this is what I'm debating. going from 75% efficiency to 65% efficiency when running a FMIC does not lower the temps in the intake mani that much. ABSOLUTELY it would have an effect if only the turbo were modifying the temp in the system. BUT, the IC is there. I was showing that any time you run a sufficient intercooler, the turbo can be spinning practically to choke and will not affect the intake mani temps drastically. BUT, ofcourse otherswise, if the turbo is the only contributing factor then certainly the difference in heat introduced would be significant.

I think that is as far as I'm going to go atm. dsm-onster has most of his facts straight. Seen it in other posts. Their is a lot of stuff that is left up to opinion and can go either way. Also FYI the mitsu TH's are just not big enough to allow a lot of flow in the upper RPM range. They really choke. The 8cm housings are decent, but a T3 housing is a lot better. Fast spool was the design goal and it's has decent mid range flow to support power.

So much correct in my opinion. MHI knew it's market when designing their housings for the td05H wheel. How many of us DSMers are so concerned about "how will this turbo spool?"

But I come from GNs and turbofords .

 

[mattspyder]

ahh ha that would explain why my turbo is shot, I ran stock boost because my mbc wasnt working right, (But it still doesnt make sense becasue I only ran it for 500 miles maybe if that) strange, Oh well all is good and im going with the evo III big16g for now. I will be more than happy with this turbo for my daily driver.

 

[Maglin]

Those bearings are not able to take much abuse. On my Holset I couldn't really run under 18 PSI without surge. It spooled 32 psi @ 3800 RPMs which make cruising a PITA at times. But they have hugh thrust bearings and I usually tried to stay out of low boost while cruising. Plus a 1G BOV just sounds wicked when your pushing 32 PSI. Everyone I know was in awww at my blow off.

Anyways... Good luck man... I really think their should be a sticky about getting a bigger turbo and running low boos on it. It won't hurt the motor but can hurt the turbo.

 

[ThingyNess]

Maglin: You're definitely onto something about the low boost on the big turbos.

Particularly the V-trim -- if you look at its compressor map it leans so far to the right that it seems like it'd surge if you just looked at it funny. Damned 60's era Garrett wheel designs.

At least your Holset was designed for a wide operating envelope, with modern CFD software, and the anti-surge compressor housing.

 

[pneumo]

Maglin, this is what I'm debating. going from 75% efficiency to 65% efficiency when running a FMIC does not lower the temps in the intake mani that much. ABSOLUTELY it would have an effect if only the turbo were modifying the temp in the system. BUT, the IC is there. I was showing that any time you run a sufficient intercooler, the turbo can be spinning practically to choke and will not affect the intake mani temps drastically. BUT, ofcourse otherswise, if the turbo is the only contributing factor then certainly the difference in heat introduced would be significant.

You're right about the effects of compressor and IC efficiency on intake temps. There's something else happening which is affected by compressor efficiency. How much energy does it take to compress (for example) 500cfm to 20psi? The compressor gets it's energy from the turbine wheel, and it takes backpressure to spin the turbie wheel. A compressor that takes more energy to compress a given volume flow of air to a given pressure will require higher backpressure at the exhaust than a more efficient compressor. Power can be made by reducing the compressors energy requirement, which can be done by raising it's efficiency.

But I come from GNs and turbofords .

I forgive you.

 

[dsm-onster]

Maglin: You're definitely onto something about the low boost on the big turbos.

Particularly the V-trim -- if you look at its compressor map it leans so far to the right that it seems like it'd surge if you just looked at it funny. Damned 60's era Garrett wheel designs.

At least your Holset was designed for a wide operating envelope, with modern CFD software, and the anti-surge compressor housing.

You think the V-trim is leaning over. Look at the H-trim! Youve really got to give MHI credit w/ their compressor wheels. MUCH more versatile. They just don't have enough turbine wheel choices. . . A better mitsu/garrett hybrid would be a choice of mitsu compressors w/ a choice of garrett or t-netics turbines. Since the "discovery" of the 25G compressor wheel, there would be plenty of variety.

A compressor that takes more energy to compress a given volume flow of air to a given pressure will require higher backpressure at the exhaust than a more efficient compressor. Power can be made by reducing the compressors energy requirement, which can be done by raising it's efficiency.

You are true that a more efficient wheel will not need as much RPM and PROBABLY energy to spin it to the same compressor rpm.

The rest of the energy is wastegated. That's why having a properly sized wastegate will let the rest of the gasses get the he!! out of the exhaust mani w/ out building excessive pressures for no good reason. In effect, it is POSSIBLE to gain hp from a bigger wastegate if you've got a HUGE compressor wheel w/ huge blades that only need a low rpm to sustain desired boost. Letting the rest of the gasses out of the system would increase overall VE. BUT, hardly anyone has such an improperly sized turbine to their comressor.

A rule of thumb , your overall compressor diameter should not exceed you overall turbine diameter by more than 15%. Personally I'm beyond that 15% by 1% w/ my 60-1 and t3 stage3. But I have a large BEP housing and flapper. . .

 

[Maglin]

Yes. A large WG will help raise VE in certain situations due to back pressure drops. My new turbo is an HX52. Got a deal on it I couldn't pass up. Unfortunitly this is a very large turbo. I'm not looking for full spool around 7-7.5K. Full spool being around 45 psi. That should definitely put me in the 750 HP range at the wheels and around 900 HP at the crank. I'm using the large Holset hotside which is a divided T-4. My HX35 with Bullseye mitsu housing was to small for the upper range I'm wanting to run in. It would really start to stop making power around 6K which is just way to early. You need to turn some RPM to get the traps I want. I'm not looking for a 10.5K rev limit which will give me around 130 mph in 3rd gear. On the 1/8 mile it will definitely be faster. Not to sure how its going to perform in the 1/4. Being that I can't find anyone running one on anything as they are just a few years old I'm pretty much going to be trying this out. I figure if it won't spool at or before 8K then I'll just sell it and make some good money just selling it and get a GT42R.

 

[dsm-onster]

Yes. A large WG will help raise VE in certain situations due to back pressure drops. My new turbo is an HX52. Got a deal on it I couldn't pass up. Unfortunitly this is a very large turbo. I'm not looking for full spool around 7-7.5K. Full spool being around 45 psi. That should definitely put me in the 750 HP range at the wheels and around 900 HP at the crank.

just . . . HOLY SH!T

Glad to see someone is finally pushing a good holset on this forum. Everyone complains, "There's no proof. So I ain't gonna try 'em."

My "other" bretherin, the turbo ford guys have take these turbos so far that you think the cummins guys selling them would catch on and charge more than $250 for them. I mean, getting a fox bod chassis into the very low 10s is quite a feat for a $200 turbo, cheap fuel control, no nitrous, and a tractor head. These street machines are too simple to stomach. Holsets love to BOOOOOSSST.

 

[TimG]

just . . . HOLY SH!T

Glad to see someone is finally pushing a good holset on this forum. Everyone complains, "There's no proof. So I ain't gonna try 'em."

My "other" bretherin, the turbo ford guys have take these turbos so far that you think the cummins guys selling them would catch on and charge more than $250 for them. I mean, getting a fox bod chassis into the very low 10s is quite a feat for a $200 turbo, cheap fuel control, no nitrous, and a tractor head. These street machines are too simple to stomach. Holsets love to BOOOOOSSST.

Let's just say I am running a full T-3 HX-35 this year on a built motor and 1000cc/min injectors. I'm gonna push that Holset straight as far as those injectors will allow. I'm not going to be like 90% of the DSM holset owners who toss on a bullseye housing and are still using 550 injectors. What's the point? No wonder no ones making any real power.

 

[dsm-onster]

The Holsets WILL deliver and WILL suprise. The best thing is that they are so absolutely tough. I dare a dsmer get on here and complain about durability and declare I should have stuck w/ MHI. They just push so much air at so much boost.

I'm sure you both will keep the DSM community informed. . .

 

[The Shodan]

doesnt your turbo have a warranty, im pretty sure it should have a decent no hassle type warranty. generally turbos that fail like this are because of some other problem(install, oiling, foreign objects etc etc). something that's very common is ppl slap turbos on cars without priming them with oil. which im a firm believer in i dont care what anyone else says.

I have to agree with this here. I've run a couple of V-trims on several applications with plenty of success, but I have to admit, many DSMers use the head to feed the oil line like they would with the 16g and other Mitsubishi turbos. Once you get to the hybrid turbos, its best to relocate the feed line through the oil filter housing or other point in the back of the block to have proper lubrication.

 

[wvturbo2]

If I want to run low boost on my 5031e for awhile until I get the tune straightened out what would I run so that I'm not surging and tearing up the turbo/ ?

 

[dsm-onster]

If I'm just trying to get my fuel trims right, often I just disconnect the wastegate actuator arm entirely. It's mush driving at best but there's no chance of the turbo building enough boost to get it "boomerang-ed" back to do any damage. . .

If I'm trying to tune WOT, then I set a target boost. I determine my target by whether or not I hear surge, or getting creap, or spiking (all from my personal cases). Keep it there and see what I can get out of it. If I can get really lean or really high timing, then, of course I start over again w/ a bit more boost. . . Seams to work for me

 

[wvturbo2]

What psi would be good for my low boost ? Doesn't surge happen when you let off of the gas or are you all talking about a different surge

 

[dsm-onster]

You'll have to find out. A turbo doesn't blow from running into surge once or twice. . . You know what it sounds lke now

 

[wvturbo2]

Yea i know what surge is cause I'd get it on the 17c, I think I'll be able to run 14-15 pounds without surging.

 

[DirtyBirdRacing]

If I want to run low boost on my 5031e for awhile until I get the tune straightened out what would I run so that I'm not surging and tearing up the turbo/ ?

Hi,

You could look at a compressor map for your particular application and get a ballpark figure. You could also run no boost as was described before, and not have to worry about it.

Bill

 

[Raph]

Wow so much right and wrong info I don't know where to start. Well first off. People that kill their v-trim turbo's are usually those that bought a turbo first and supporting mods later. Ran to low a boost level and the compressor was surging a lot probably with a lot of stall was well. Big turbo's and low boost will easily stall as they are not spinning close to what they should be. Surge and stall kills turbo's. People always point to oiling but it's really almost never the cause. If you run more oil pressure ie.. off the filter housing it gives you more of an oil cushion for the shaft to butt up against during surge and stall but wont' stop if from eventually killing it's self. Personally I won't run turbo's from the filter housing any longer. Their is no need and usually it ends up pushing to much pressure and oil out the hot side.

dsm-onster is pretty much correct in his statements. But not entirely. You have a few factors to consider and they are seen on a compressor map. The left side is pressure/atmospheric pressure. It's the easiest way to explain it. That is why 20 psi @ 4,000 ft outputs less air then @ sea leval. And it's easy to see on the compressor map. You can see how much extra flow you get at a given pressure with it being constant. Usually the increase in power is from not over heating the charge with a smaller compressor. Larger compressors are not compressing as much to kept your desired boost level. It's the only way I can think to explain it. I believe you can get like 1 hp/-1* drop in temp. It might not be totally right but it's close. So you drop you IAT's by 20* you pick up 20 HP and thus the extra power. Volume remains the same but air mass increases.

I think that is as far as I'm going to go atm. dsm-onster has most of his facts straight. Seen it in other posts. Their is a lot of stuff that is left up to opinion and can go either way. Also FYI the mitsu TH's are just not big enough to allow a lot of flow in the upper RPM range. They really choke. The 8cm housings are decent, but a T3 housing is a lot better. Fast spool was the design goal and it's has decent mid range flow to support power.

so whats low boost on a v trim?? i run like 12-15 psi on it(and i looove it).. i just got a new clutch and im gonna run 10 psi for the break in (12-15 is alot for me(i.e no traction )..i got 9.5:1 compression n my 4g63 )