Varying Clutch Engagement [Merged 1-9] bleeding air floor stuck grinding

[BoostInsideTSi]

Okay, folks, for some unknown reason, we're now getting three threads a week started about clutch malfunctions.
The usual cause is that the system hasn't been properly bled.

Have at it.

I put in a used, but in good condition master cylinder, to replace the one I had before with a broken rubber seal. I did not bleed any components, I simply took out the old one, and bolted the new one up. Then I proceeded to fill the reservoir with dot 3 brake fluid. Bubbles rose to the top of the reservoir, then I topped it off after the fluid ran down into the system. I looked at the clutch pedal and noticed it was still sitting on the floor. I tried pulling it up off the floor, but it only went up a few inches. Probably some adjusting that needs to be done with the rod is causing that. Anyway when I pull it up there is quite a bit of resistance, where when I let go the pedal just pulls right back to the floor. I've heard there is a vacuum going on, where with air in the system, it is just pulling that sucker right back. I tried pumping the crap out of the pedal with a friend opening the bleeder valve and I just shoot clutch fluid everywhere.. I Stop after about 50 pumps and put more fluid and keep going, but notice no improvement. Does anyone know what I need to do? Can anyone verify it is the air in the system causing my problem? Thank you,
Mike

 

[PieEyedPiper]

Try bleeding again. And if you did a FULL slave to master kit you will have to adjust the master cylinder. If it was the full line, it deletes that restrictor for lack of a better word... (mainly bc I can't remember what it's called, near the fuse box)

"Accumulator"

 

[Trav83]

The only thing that was replaced was the flex hose, not the high pressure lines. They did bleed it, but I'm not sure how well and I didn't watch them close it back up. I know they tightened the new SS flew hose very well on both ends.

It's really bad right now but even before this new hose was put in I always could push the clutch pedal down 2-3 inches before there was any resistance or pressure. What do you guys think, time for a new master and slave? I know some people say adjust the rod but all thats gonna do is change the height of the pedal, which isn't my problem.

 

[ian_maham]

Recently I have had a ruff first gear. Its a bit hard to get into when I first start my car up in the morning. But after a few shifts here and there it seems to loosen up. Do you think it could be a jacked up syncro or even a shift fork? What are the common defective signs of these two potential problems. What's the difficulty level of a fix, just incase. Any suggestions would be great but I'm really hoping to get some knowledgable and informative answers(no offense, I'm just really concerned right now).

Thanks,
Ian

 

[luv2rallye]

Will it shift if you go into 2nd first and then 1st? How easy does it shift with the engine off?
Have you replaced the tranny fluid (eg. Sycromesh or Red Line MT-90)?
Here's a syncro test you can do: http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/problem-diagnosis/313040-first-constant-grind.html#post151652292

 

[Richrx_tsi]

If its the syncros you can run the car through first and shift to second than 3rd, then downshift to 2nd then back to 1st. This helps to align the sycros I think

 

[Calan]

... he took pedal off floor with hand, and redid this process literally over 60 times. After about an hour or so, pedal came up on its own, but only when not bleeding. If we were bleeding pedal would always stay on the floor and never come up on its own.

I think you have something askew there kemosabe. As Oldman420 said, it's normal for that to happen for a while...but not for an hour and 60 times

My guess is you've got a leak somewhere and your letting air back into the system after you close the bleeder. While the line is pressurized (after pumping the pedal but before opening the bleeder), inspect the entire clutch line path and look for any leaks. Wait a few minutes and see if the pressure drops off quickly.

It sounds like your doing it correctly, but it might not hurt to double-check your bleeding procedure too.

BTW - You can save a little effort if you fill the reservoir, open the bleeder valve and let gravity fill the lines for a bit before actually bleeding the system. It may take a while...just watch the bleeder until you see fluid seeping out. And this may not work (or may not work very well) depending on how your lines are run.

 

[VergeTSi]

I have a 97 gsx and been having never ending problems with the clutch. Basically I'm getting pump up on the clutch is the problem. I have recently replaced the clutch kit, throw out bearing, pivot ball and fork, slave, master cylinder and clutch dampener and still having engagment problems.

First I adjust the master cylinder rod to the sweet spot like they do it in this video for 2g eclipses

Transmission Videos

I then test out the clutch and it doesn't engage, like it doesn't have enough pressure. So the only way I can drive is to adjust the rod all the way to the last thread and drive for about 20 minutes and get pump up like crazy and after driving, go under the front bumper and release the pressure from the slave. I do that like 2 times a day. I have literally replaced the entire clutch and hydraulic system and still can't figure out why it doesn't just engage in the sweet spot. I have talked to RRE and mike says it sounds like the master cylinder is defective or the adjustment is off. Which sounds like it but the MC is 3 months old and straight from the dealer and I have adjust the top switch and rod and still no engagment.

Does anyone have a solution to this problem? The only thing I can think of is making a long slave rod with a 1/4 in extension. What do you guys think?

 

[evileagleawd]

I am a little confused about your problem you said the clutch does not engage. Is the trans grinding when you go to put it in gear. Or are you saying it slips when you go to accelerate. With your foot off the clutch pedal it is engaged. When your foot is on the clutch pedal it is the clutch is disengaged.


3 things come to mind that might fix your problem. Inspect rubber hose for the slave cylinder. Have a friend pushes down on the clutch pedal make sure it is not swelling up. i know a few people that have had to use the extended slave cylinder rod. You can buy it on ebay or i recommend MAP. Also you could put a washer underneath the pivot ball. Some times a pain in the butt to get the right washer a little trial and error. And bleed, bleed, and bleed some more. Make sure you have all the air out of the system.

 

[nuclearr]

sounds like you need to do more bleading to or the pivor ball needs to be shimed if the fork is not just to the drivers side of center in the window it is incorect and needs to be shimed. A extension rod may help but will not fix the problem.

 

[VergeTSi]

I have bled the system countless times. It doesn't go into gear if I adjust the MC rod correctly. It feels like it doesn't get enough pressure to push the fork all the way to push the throw out bearing. The clutch engages fine but only if i adjsut the MC rod all the way back so I get clutch pump up, but eventually I get so much pump up that the clutch slips and I got to pull over and lay under the front bumper and release the pressure from the slave.

My old fork and pivot ball had alot of wear on it and the fork was pointing towards the passengers side, but I replaced the fork and pivot ball with OEM ones and its dead center now. So I replaced everything that has to do with the clutch and hydraulic system and still doesn't disengage properly.

The only thing I can think of is getting an extended slave rod.

I would shim the pivot ball and add a washer or two but shit I got to take out everything just to put in a washer again? haha

 

[Colt4G63 also]

If you are saying that you keep getting air in your clutch, and you have to bleed it frequently, I know what your problem is.

I'm not totally familiar with the 2Gs, but I've seen this before on other cars.

1) If you have a hose from your reservoir, to your clutch master, make sure it's clamped tightly at both ends, especially at the bottom.

2) There's a line on the reservoir that says MAX, don't fill it above that line!

When you push down the clutch, it pulls fluid from the reservoir and creates a vacuum. There has to be airspace in the reservoir that will expand when you push the clutch. The typical problem is that the reservoir is overfull so it sucks in air bubles at the bottom of the reservoir. Those air bubbles go directly into the master, and you get a spongy clutch, but don't loose any fluid.

Does this sound familiar?

 

[VergeTSi]

i am familiar with it but I meant I have bled the system alot of times because I thought there was air in the system. There is no air in the system. You mentioned that the mc reservior gets air from the bottom of the mc if the reservior is topped off, Where does the air come from the bottom of the mc? I'm a bit confused on that. thanks

 

[Dedlyvirus]

hey guys, i have a 95 gst with a 92 gst 6 bolt motor swapped in. The problem is is that now the clutch pedal feels like it is starting to stick. it will go in fine, but when i release the pedal, the pedal comes up a little bit, then kinda sticks, then pops up. it doesn't have any affect on the clutch as it drives fine, and no problem shifting gears.
im thinking it could be the master or slave cylinder, probably the slave cylinder. my question is is that if it is the slave cylinder, would i have to get a cylinder for a 95, or a 92 because the motor is a 92?

 

[95 'clipse RS]

how's the clutch fluid level? and have you tried bleeding it? is anything leaking? you can check both the master and slave to see if they are leaking. for the master look underneath your dash at the piston that is operated by the clutch pedal. if fluid is leaking from around it then this could pose as a problem, not only will the fluid level diminish, but air can then be introduced into the lines. the slave however is easier as you'll be able to see fluid leaking from the seals.

is just the engine from a 92, or is both the engine and tranny from a 92? if the tranny is a 92, get a slave for a 1G, if its a 95, get a slave for a 4G63 2G.

the location of the lines on the slave cylinders between 1G FWD, 1G AWD, and the 4G63 2G's are different. all 4G63 slaves can bolt up to the tranny though.

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/newbie-forum/264014-slave-cylinder-2g-1g.html?highlight=which+slave+cylinder

also heres a link for an OEM slave cylinder, you have to specify 1G FWD, 1G AWD, or 4G63 2G.

OEM Mitsubishi Clutch Slave Cylinder Eclipse/Talon 4G63

 

[PaRaNORML]

ok i replaced my clutch slave cylinder today,tried to bleed it as much as i could,, the clutch would hold pressure after pumping 4-5times then after a minute all the pressure dies down and clutch sinks......the fork is ok.......i cant even shift into gear when car is off ..then when car is on it stays in neutral.....the car was riding fine before i lost gears yesterday....the old slave was missing the spring with a bolt instead of the rod....i also noticed the shift link cable is bent but still connected......


why cant i get pressure to the slave?
why wont it go in gear when car is off?


please tell me the slave has everything to do with it becuase it rode fine until the bolt fell out please help somebody

 

[PaRaNORML]

i just dont belive it can be anything other than the slave,,, the new one started leaking so ripped it off....the shift cable apears to have some damge but its not broken the braided steel is kind of frayed...but still connected.....but the whole way home i was having to shift without the clutch...so thats makin me wonder to.....but the car ran fine until the temporary slave cylinder setup we came up with fell apart

 

[95redturboawd]

If the pressure is dying down that probably means you have a leak somewhere. Is the fluid in the reservoir staying at the same level?

 

[PaRaNORML]

not at all the after a goood 10-15 pumps ..the resevoir is empty i went through 2 12 fl oz bottles of brake fluid....

 

[Nvisabl]

Sounds to me like you are trying to bleed the clutch like they are brakes? If so don't do it that way, attached a hose to the bleeder put the end of the hose in a bottle submerged in brake fluid. Open bleeder have some pump clutch pedal slowly up and down until no bubbles and clear fluid flow (keep adding fluid to resivoir ) .
Also make sure clutch is adjusted properly.

Hope this helps

 

[PaRaNORML]

so the thats why its not allowing it to shift at all? and you dont think the fork is damaged? or the link cable?

 

[simplicity]

I have a 91 GST

Just replaced the stock setup with a Fidanza 2.1 Clutch Kit and Flywheel.

Got everything back together, and there was way to much free play in the pedal, and it wouldn't release at all.

Replaced the fork and pivot ball with others from another transmission, replaced the slave cylinder and still the same problem.

Replaced the master cylinder, bled it quite a few times. Goes into gear and runs great now, however every once in a while in will grind going into 1st. It doesn't do it everytime, could there still be air in the system or is 1st gear going out of the transmission?

I will do the test menitoned by DMS1G90 in the morning.

 

[luv2rallye]

Before doing anything watch the proper clutch adjustment and pivot ball shimming videos here: Transmission Videos

 

[simplicity]

Before doing anything watch the proper clutch adjustment and pivot ball shimming videos here: Transmission Videos

I watched the clutch adjustment video, very informative. However, is the shimming of the pivot ball required?

 

[luv2rallye]

Only if the fork is past the halfway point (passenger side) of the bell housing window (see very end of RRE's Clutch And Flywheel Tech Info) so that it does not have enough travel to release clutch. If this is the case, nothing else (like extended rod, new slave, etc) will help since there is not enough travel there. You can also search on here for Fidanza clutch to see how others handled problems with it. I assumed you got the proper one for your engine and it's step is correct.

 

[91fwdtsi08]

I have a 92 Talon TSi AWD, after changing out my clutch disk pressure plate and throwout bearing I put it all back together then bled the lines and the clutch wouldn't disengage. changed out the master cylinder because it was leaking still wouldn't disengage so we thought the clutch disk may have been in backwards so tore it back apart and it was in correctly so put it all back together and changed the slave still nothing we've properly bled the whole system. the clutch is just a stock replacement so I didn't think I'd have to shim the pivot ball or anything.

anyone have any ideas?