Turbo question as far as breaking in Engine

[nightspeed87]

Im going to break in my new 6bolt with the motoman techniques by the way
of breaking it in sort of hard ( not like redlineing it hard, but not babying it either)
to help seat the rings fully to keep full compression.
But besides that, was told by a wiseman that every engine he broke in basically
messed up the turbo on that engine. I imagen it was from all the loose metal "break in" shavings floating around in the engine and making their way up into the turbo itself.
I have a new 14b going on with the motor and certainly dont want to mess it up,
therefore I am concerned about breaking it in with that. Was told to find some junk turbo to break it in with and if it is that big a deal I def. will... ( and can a junk p.o.s. turbo harm anything? )
Just wanted to hear any different view point, or just a toll of different things and expierences with the turbo from breaking in an engine...
By the way I Also thought of breaking it in all motor with reg. non turbo headers/ or manifold, which seems easy, but was also told that boost actually helps seats the rings better/faster....

 

[MrBoxx]

Find a used T25 or 13g in the classifieds, a junkyard, or ebay and use that to break in your motor. A wiseman once told me that every time he broke in a new/rebuilt motor, the turbo died shortly after. Regardless of whether it happens to every engine break-in and every turbo, it's enough to worry me, especially if I had a new turbo to worry about.

 

[DanThMan1983]

Find a used T25 or 13g in the classifieds, a junkyard, or ebay and use that to break in your motor. A wiseman once told me that every time he broke in a new/rebuilt motor, the turbo died shortly after. Regardless of whether it happens to every engine break-in and every turbo, it's enough to worry me, especially if I had a new turbo to worry about.

died? how so? doesnt make much sense to me.

 

[MrBoxx]

died? how so? doesnt make much sense to me.

For the reasons nightspeed87 mentioned:

I imagine it was from all the loose metal "break in" shavings floating around in the engine and making their way up into the turbo itself.

Edit: Unfortunately, the site where the wiseman told me this has been restructured and doesn't contain the forum that it once did, so I can't search for his exact quotes on the subject. I'm not happy about that, either. There were some great pieces of info that I got from him there before I came here.

 

[nightspeed87]

what about this
http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=224282&highlight=breaking+motor

Maybe this is the same wiseman were talking about.
Well at any rate, supposing I cant use the extra junk turbo my mechanic has laying around for whatever reason, and supposeing I dont have money to buy a junk turbo, how about if I broke the motor in N/T style? I have some 4-2-1 4g63 non turbo headers laying around. Would this be smarter to just bolt those up and do it that way for xx number of miles? Or is boost itself really that important in seating the rings fully ( and if thats the case how do n/a's break in? )
And say I did break the engine in with n/t headers how should I plug the turbo oil return line so oil doesnt spray out?

 

[MrBoxx]

That would be the Wiseman to whom I was referring. If he says that a turbo usually dies after new engine break-in, I'll take his word for it and take extra precautions.

Using an NT header might work. You'll still get pressure from cylinder pressures as Kevin mentions in that thread, but it'll be a little less since you have lower compression pistons than NT cars (I believe). As for plugging the lines, I don't know. Some people just use 'dummy' CHRA's with no compressor wheels or turbine wheels.

 

[nightspeed87]

That would be the Wiseman to whom I was referring. If he says that a turbo usually dies after new engine break-in, I'll take his word for it and take extra precautions.

Using an NT header might work. You'll still get pressure from cylinder pressures as Kevin mentions in that thread, but it'll be a little less since you have lower compression pistons than NT cars (I believe). As for plugging the lines, I don't know. Some people just use 'dummy' CHRA's with no compressor wheels or turbine wheels.

im using 2g 8:5.1 pistons..
The n/t 4g63 uses 9.1 compression pistons... Not much difference id say,
a half a point or so shouldnt change too much in comparison right?

What would you recommend supposing I couldnt get a dummy turbo , just break it in n/t style. And if I did it n/t style would you assume Id have to get on it a little harder than usual to increase cylinder pressure to help seat rings?

Hopefully I can use my mechanics old blown turbo ( dont know how blown it is )
I know i justwant the piston rings to get full compression because I wont have money to be going back in there, or money to be replacing a turbo.... ( At least not annnyyy time soon... )

 

[andymoraitis]

My experience was entirely different from Kevin's. I broke mine in hard running full revs Motoman style on the turbo I was planning on running for a while. I changed the oil at 30, 300, 1000 and 1500 miles and the turbo was perfect when removed for resale. He's definitely right about not babying the thing though. I think it varies and depends on the quality of the machine work performed. Some people have problems trashing turbos on new motors and some don't. I personally didn't but the decision on what you want to do is up to you.

Just my .02,

Andy

 

[MrBoxx]

My experience was entirely different from Kevin's. I broke mine in hard running full revs Motoman style on the turbo I was planning on running for a while. I changed the oil at 30, 300, 1000 and 1500 miles and the turbo was perfect when removed for resale. He's definitely right about not babying the thing though. I think it varies and depends on the quality of the machine work performed. Some people have problems trashing turbos on new motors and some don't. I personally didn't but the decision on what you want to do is up to you.

Just my .02,

Andy

Good points, Andy. I think Kevin's turbos get put through a lot more than the average DSM'er, seeing as he's a regular at his local track. And he did once spit a 14b turbine wheel out of his exhaust after the shaft broke. I can't say I know of any other person who's done that.

Still, ever since my T25 died in a dramatic fashion I've been over-protective of my turbo, so any method of keeping a turbo alive makes good sense to me. Everyone's got their preferences on motor break-in procedures, and that's cool with me. If I ever have to break in a new motor, I'll probably end up using my current 14b to break it in, then upgrade to something else, either because my new engine warrants it (2.3 liter?) or because the turbo ended up dying. Either way, I'll be happy and my wife won't be after seeing the credit card bill.

 

[nightspeed87]

My experience was entirely different from Kevin's. I broke mine in hard running full revs Motoman style on the turbo I was planning on running for a while. I changed the oil at 30, 300, 1000 and 1500 miles and the turbo was perfect when removed for resale. He's definitely right about not babying the thing though. I think it varies and depends on the quality of the machine work performed. Some people have problems trashing turbos on new motors and some don't. I personally didn't but the decision on what you want to do is up to you.

Just my .02,

Andy

yea i recall you telling me before how you borke yours in Andy.
Well the engine has a completely new head ( lifters, valves, cams, etc. ) and new rods, bearings, pistons, rings, and a micro polished crank and everything cryotreated.
The block is being reused though, what exactly does all the metal shavings come from during break in, im guessing the bearings and crank?

I guess im just paranoid because I dont need anything else going wrong here you know,
the money spent for a new turbo couldve been my full suspension or half of my upgraded tranny you know, those are along the lines im thinking.
I guess if I cant borrow my mechanics used blown 16g to break it in then i will just break it in with a all motor 4g63 manifold. Im sure im going to have boost creep anyways since im going to be running 3in open dp for a week before we connect the rest so maybe its better i didnt break it in with a turbo since i may be creeping to 20 lbs or something ( which would def be bad since I have 1g timing on 2g pistons right now ) But thanks for the input from you all.

 

[scturbospyder]

I'd be scared to go rough on the breakin period, but these guys probably know more about it then me. However, going with a dummy turbo probably is a good idea. You can get a cheap 14b for like $50-60.

 

[andymoraitis]

I think breaking it in without a turbo is a mistake. It's fine to pick up something used so you don't worry about metal shavings, but boost pressure is part of what seats the rings and helps prevent blowby in those first thirty miles. I wouldn't be worried about the motor trying to hit 20 psi. Just rev to the point at which it makes 15-16 and then let it drop back into vacuum. After the first 30 miles, change the oil and let it creep if you have the fuel and timing maps to handle it.

 

[somdturbo]

Or perhaps by a inline oil filter for the turbo, thus the manufacturer will warranty the product. (cough cough fp, ) Thats what I did.

 

[Black Venom]

I think breaking it in without a turbo is a mistake. It's fine to pick up something used so you don't worry about metal shavings, but boost pressure is part of what seats the rings and helps prevent blowby in those first thirty miles. I wouldn't be worried about the motor trying to hit 20 psi. Just rev to the point at which it makes 15-16 and then let it drop back into vacuum. After the first 30 miles, change the oil and let it creep if you have the fuel and timing maps to handle it.

I agree. Break in procedures should be done on a good boosting 14b or 16g.

I hope you didn't really buy a New 14b.
Using a dummy turbo is the same as using the N/T headers. I would be afraid to use a known bad turbo, it could contaminate the oil even more.

 

[nightspeed87]

I agree. Break in procedures should be done on a good boosting 14b or 16g.

I hope you didn't really buy a New 14b.
Using a dummy turbo is the same as using the N/T headers. I would be afraid to use a known bad turbo, it could contaminate the oil even more.

Thats what gave me the idea just to use n/t headers, and the 14b I got came with the motor I didnt exactly buy it seperatly..

I think breaking it in without a turbo is a mistake. It's fine to pick up something used so you don't worry about metal shavings, but boost pressure is part of what seats the rings and helps prevent blowby in those first thirty miles. I wouldn't be worried about the motor trying to hit 20 psi. Just rev to the point at which it makes 15-16 and then let it drop back into vacuum. After the first 30 miles, change the oil and let it creep if you have the fuel and timing maps to handle it.

You may be right about breaking it in with a turbo is better, but i mean I should still be able to get full compression even without boost or otherwise how would n/ts do it? ( Most cars arent turbo )
But then again Id rather have a dummy turbo and break it in with boost. Problem being i have 2g pistons on 1g timing maps, and I wont have my keydiver chip for another 4 weeks, and this car is a DD so I cant wait that long. Therefore if I creep I could be getting serious knock. ( Heard anything over 12lbs will cause knock on 1g timing with that comp ratio. ) I thought about that also, just revving to the point to where the boost wouldnt be causing knocking then let off before it goes to high, but then again i figured i wouldnt get any real rpms on the board and the motor still might not break in correctly if I did it like that.
Some say i wont creep on 14b as long as its ported right, some say open dp will still induce creep?

 

[andymoraitis]

I wouldn't worry about creep on a 14B even with an open DP system. You can always back off if the boost seems to get too high. As far as the timing maps being an issue, it really shouldn't be for a short break in period under lower boost. If you're really worried about it, break the motor in with race gas and you won't have to concern yourself with knock. In addition, my motor is 8.8:1 and I broke it in at 16 psi on a 16G with 18 degrees of peak timing in the chip. It didn't knock a bit. I know 1G maps are slightly more aggressive, but it won't mean squat if you're running 14 psi.

As far as needing boost to break in, if the first thirty miles are the most critical and boost helps seat the rings then I'd say it's not something to overlook. Methinks you're really worried about more than you should be. Blast on the thing between 2-6K under acceleration and vacuum and call it a day.

 

[nightspeed87]

I wouldn't worry about creep on a 14B even with an open DP system. You can always back off if the boost seems to get too high. As far as the timing maps being an issue, it really shouldn't be for a short break in period under lower boost. If you're really worried about it, break the motor in with race gas and you won't have to concern yourself with knock. In addition, my motor is 8.8:1 and I broke it in at 16 psi on a 16G with 18 degrees of peak timing in the chip. It didn't knock a bit. I know 1G maps are slightly more aggressive, but it won't mean squat if you're running 14 psi.

As far as needing boost to break in, if the first thirty miles are the most critical and boost helps seat the rings then I'd say it's not something to overlook. Methinks you're really worried about more than you should be. Blast on the thing between 2-6K under acceleration and vacuum and call it a day.

Well I guess ...

And What do you mean by this?

I know 1G maps are slightly more aggressive, but it won't mean squat if you're running 14 psi.

A few 1g guys ive spoken with said at 12psi at like 6000rpm he had 30 counts of knock.
So if it boost creeps past that then who knows... Wouldnt be a good welcoming for a new engine id think. But whatever I just wont let it creep then even if it means keeping rpm lower.

But Yea didnt think of the race gas thing. Good idea at least, sorry to say i am paranoid because I dont have money to constantly fix things when Im trying to progress not run in circles. My car had sooo many problems in the past with stuff I cant help but be paranoid with it. When it rains it pours you know... But besides that, at any rate Ill just get one of those oil filters the other guy was talking about that has the warranty, and cross my fingers. Im going to change the oil in even closer intervals if I did that. After how many miles does all the break in shavings finally flush out?

 

[Black Venom]

Well I guess ...

And What do you mean by this?


A few 1g guys ive spoken with said at 12psi at like 6000rpm he had 30 counts of knock.
So if it boost creeps past that then who knows... Wouldnt be a good welcoming for a new engine id think. But whatever I just wont let it creep then even if it means keeping rpm lower.

But Yea didnt think of the race gas thing. Good idea at least, sorry to say i am paranoid because I dont have money to constantly fix things when Im trying to progress not run in circles. My car had sooo many problems in the past with stuff I cant help but be paranoid with it. When it rains it pours you know... But besides that, at any rate Ill just get one of those oil filters the other guy was talking about that has the warranty, and cross my fingers. Im going to change the oil in even closer intervals if I did that. After how many miles does all the break in shavings finally flush out?

The guy was saying you could buy a New Fp turbo and they would warranty it as long as you had an inline filter.
It's a bad idea to break in a turbo motor: N/A
Your chosen method of break in means high Rpm.
I say use the 14b for the break in procedure, and plan on upgrading shortly.
Dummy turbo provides no boost=N/A break In
If your worried about creep sooo bad, then borrow someones stock o2 housing and downpipe.

 

[andymoraitis]

A few 1g guys ive spoken with said at 12psi at like 6000rpm he had 30 counts of knock.

He obviously has other issues. 12 psi on stock 1G maps isn't going to create knock unless there's a fuel supply issue or something's up with the knock sensor.

 

[Bmxr152]

i broke in my engine with the Evo 3 MHI turbo, with no problems at all. My car has aprox. 3,000 miles on it and is very healty. As well as the turbo. I dont see how metal shavings can get into the turbo when the outlet line is on the head which has somewat filterd oil??

 

[Black Venom]

i broke in my engine with the Evo 3 MHI turbo, with no problems at all. My car has aprox. 3,000 miles on it and is very healty. As well as the turbo. I dont see how metal shavings can get into the turbo when the outlet line is on the head which has somewat filterd oil??

A cars oiling system is a loop, lets say the oil filter is start and finish. The oil flows through the short block first then to the head(after picking up any shavings the shorblock may have) After leaving the head it goes to the filter.
It's much more complicated then this, but the head gets the dirty oil.

 

[i1nk83]

Well in theory you should ever have "metal shavings" in your oil, break in or otherwise. The crank/cams/rods/etc are supposed to ride on a cusion of oil. The bearings should never actually touch the item that is spinning inside of them. Now in reality you will have some shavings in the block, if it was machined, and some from the bearings/oilpump/etc upon initial startup. If you do like most people do and start the motor, get it up to temp and then immediatly change the oil you should be alright. Obviously you guys are taking about the hard break in method, but where is this motoman article you speak of?

 

[andymoraitis]

Here you go:

http://www.mototuneusa.com/break_in_secrets.htm

 

[nightspeed87]

Well in theory you should ever have "metal shavings" in your oil, break in or otherwise. The crank/cams/rods/etc are supposed to ride on a cusion of oil. The bearings should never actually touch the item that is spinning inside of them. Now in reality you will have some shavings in the block, if it was machined, and some from the bearings/oilpump/etc upon initial startup. If you do like most people do and start the motor, get it up to temp and then immediatly change the oil you should be alright. Obviously you guys are taking about the hard break in method, but where is this motoman article you speak of?

So you say start it, warm it, turn it off, and then change oil then do motoman technique I mentioned?
So when I performance this motoman technique on the first 30 miles, does that generally mean I have to drive it
non stop in this technique for 30 miles without turning it off, or no? Will shutting down the car, and then say picking up the process later whenever I turn it back on, will that cancel anything out or cause ill effects?
Not sure if when you break it in it has to be in one interval, or you can shut it off and pick up later.
Because if I can im just going to turn it on drive it for like 5 or 10 miles ( under motoman tech ) then change oil
then do it again for 30 miles then go from there.... Make any sense?

He obviously has other issues. 12 psi on stock 1G maps isn't going to create knock unless there's a fuel supply issue or something's up with the knock sensor.

Sorry I ment a 1g guy running 2g pistons had 30 counts of knock at 6000rpm on 12lbs... ( Thats why that didnt make sense)

 

[i1nk83]

Every motor my buddies and I have ever rebuilt has had the oil changed almost immediatley, no driving. We ususally start the motor, check for leaks let it run for about 5 min then shut it down. Change the oil, then go and give it hell.