Trannies for RWD

[kbrock1]

does anyone know what transmission Brent Rau uses in his rwd eclispe. He races in the nopi series and 7's almost every pass. Checked his website but he doesn't list to much info.

 

[iamtall77]

i noticed that too. I assume he's running the powerglide setup, but i thought i saw something that made me think different. Something like "clutchless tranny" or something. I really have no idea what he's running, but damn is he fast! The car looks sweet too.

 

[kbrock1]

I know one of his sponsors is ACT so if he is running a powerglide that might be why he doesn't advertise what transmission he is using

 

[UCSLugRacerX]

Iamtall77, it seems like you've done heavy of research as is. IMO, go ahead and buy the transmission that seems most compatible, and then beef the hell out of it. Your project might consist of much trial and error, cutting and welding. In terms of chassis, this may seem obvious, but compare the lightest chassis, with the most compatible chassis, and then make compromises accordingly.
While you're at it, take pictures and post them up on this thread. I'd like to see the progress.

On another note...

You said: "Drag cars aren't meant to be AWD."
I thought you indicated you were not going to build a drag car.

You also said:
"AWD is meant for safety and ease of driving under less than ideal conditions. It's true that it does help put power to the ground and gives you great launch times, but honestly once you reach certain power levels, it only add drivetrain loss in power."

You are correct about the fast launch times and power loss through 4WD drivetrains. But there are MUCH greater benefits of having AWD than just good handling in poor traction conditions. Also having the "ease of driving" is a BIG statement. Having a predictable, controllable car is a HUGE plus.
Also, since from what I understand, your goal is not to build a drag car, but take turns too. The laws of physics indicate that the FASTEST way around a turn (in terms of steady state turning) is with all 4 wheels putting down equal amounts of force. What does this sound like? An AWD DSM, or a Lancer EVO 8.
There are other high performance cars, with somewhat rear bias power splits which are AWD, such as the Porsche Carrera 4, and the Lamborghini Mercialago, as well as the WRX STI.

Here is a direct quote from Race Car Engineering and Mechanics by Paul Van Valkenburgh.
“The fastest way around a skidpad or high speed oval 180 degree turn, would be for four equal tires to share equal load and equal driving force. Excess load or excess torque on any single tire will diminish its cornering capabilities.” (R.C.E.A.M, Valkenburgh, pg 156). Carroll Smith pretty much indicates the equivalent in Tune to Win also.

You probably already know this, but RWD cars tend to transition from steady state turning to power-on-oversteer. Oversteer is an unstable condition, and usually a slow method of getting out of turns. Understeer can actually be faster in some situations, plus more predictable and manageable. Racecar engineers as well as high performance car engineers design cars to increase the car’s capacity in steady state turning, as steering angle increases. There goal is not power-on-oversteer. (That’s left for the drifter crowd.)

I understand building a RWD 4G63t car for reasons of being different, but I do not understand your claim that building a RWD 4G63t car out-engineer AWD cars in terms of handling dynamics.

In any case, good luck with the project.
-Andrew

 

[GRNDSM]

I would be the guy with the TR7. You can look it up under project cars on my website.

I am using Mighty Max/D50 bell housing with ’88 Starion guts (put together by Eric P.). My project is not yet done, so I am still going to have to address the clutch issues. I am planning on converting to a DSM clutch and flywheel (bigger than truck’s clutch and much more choices).

I am not thrilled about the prospects of using an adapter plate, if I can avoid it. If I was starting over, I would pick up a “wide” 4G63 block and confirm that it does bolt–up to the Starion and a bunch of other Toyota/GM/Mazda trannys. If it does, I would just build-up that NT motor.

Leon
RR

 

[iamtall77]

UCSLugRacerX, great stuff. You are very correct on most of that. However, your quote about "all four tires sharing equal load" that won't do. If you put as much power to the inside tires as you do to the outside tires in a turn, you will lose that power with wheel spin. Eventually physics take over and the inside tires have less contact patch to the road and in turn, well turn more. I agree that AWD is great, I love mine. I just think that there are better solutions to getting power to the pavement than just adding more drivetrain. My project (if i ever get it going) will be a street car and see some occasional drag time. (it's fun to get stuck back in your seat With all intensive purposes the DSM is not a road car. It's heavy and doesn't handle all that well. Hell, my underpowered DSM oversteers when i dip into the throttle in a turn. That doesn't insire confidence in AWD. You are intitled to your opinion and I love to hear it. Let's all be open minded and see all possible angles when available. You can bash AWD, praise it, be indifferent, or whatever. Just don't be too timid to admit your standing on this. Keep it coming.

 

[Turbonium]

the understeer is just built in by the factory so that 90% of drivers who are idiots won't lose control if they take a corner too fast, if your average driver went into a corner and his rearend kicked out he wouldn't know what to do w/ himself. you could get rid of this understeer in a variety of ways swaybars heavierweight springs in the rear, etc, etc. formula 1 experimented w/ awd for a few years but ended the idea because of weight or something along those lines, you'd have to ask someone more knowledgeable about the subject. but good luck w/ your RWD setup all my beaters are RWD and they're a blast,
Ryan

 

[STARION]

Just use a stock FWD trans.

 

[iamtall77]

Use a FWD tranny for what? A rear mounted engine? Not a chance. There is enough custom work needed for the RWD conversion in a DSM or any other platform. I did see some pics of a rear mounted motor from Buschur's DSM Shootout. There were a couple of nice conversions including an old truck with a 4G63. Buschur sent me an e-mail saying it belonged to his brother. Nice looking contraption, except he mounted a stock DSM steering wheel in the cab. My stock wheel is too ugly to recycle into a custom machine.
I'm trying to keep this post open to people with info or ideas related to the conversion. I do appreciate all the comments and input, but please try to limit it to facts (if possible) to the swap and maybe something cool you've seen done. I'm having trouble trying to find out info on the Dodge Charger conversion. I've only seen one (I believe it was also at the DSM Shootout) and it's pretty cool. The Charger i'm speaking of is the one made in the 80's to possibly the early 90's with the 2.2L Turbo. (i think) It might be a little rare to source parts from, but if anyone has info on this platform or what might be compatible that would be great. Also, if anyone knows about the car I'm speaking of and knows what kind of setup is used, that could be useful. Keep posting.

 

[STARION]

Just mentioned it because in the very first post you were talking about this kind of thing:

Anyone wondering why i'm thinking this, just listen. I have an AWD car and love it. But wouldn't it be nice to have the power to weight of the 4G63 in a slightly more efficient design? What about a 4G63 in a Miata or RX-7? Think of how much more simple the RWD layout is. No weak links to hold back from creating huge RELIABLE power. The tranny on the DSM is a known weak link. Extreme used to go through 3 transmissions in a weakend of racing. Shep has to overbuild the transmission to hold the power he puts down. How many AWD drag cars are there in the 3 second range? How many DSMs can make an 8 sec pass and not rip out the gears? Hell how many Skylines are in the 8 sec. range? (i've seen a mid 10 sec run at 5,000 ft here in Colorado) The AWD setup is great for holding traction in less than ideal situations and getting the power to the ground. But physics dictate that weight transfer in acceleration is going to end up in the rear (that's if you're going straight) Besides, we've accomplished so much with the DSM, why not go another direction?

And the most efficient design in terms of weight, drivetrain loss, weight transfer/traction and handling would be mid-mounted, there's nothing wrong with the DSM trans either if you put the right parts in it.....you'd also get the added bonus (if you wanted to) of designing the IRS on whatever car you are putting it in with proper upper and lower wishbones for optimal camber curve so the car would handle how you wanted it to. I agree it may seem that much more difficult to do, but I can tell you from firsthand experience that it's not that bad at all.

 

[GRNDSM]

One of our local guys has '87 Fiero GT (fastback body) with a FWD DSM tranny/engine in the back. If only he could finish it . But then again, I shouldn't be talking .

Leon
RR

 

[iamtall77]

Any pics on info on the Fiero? STARION, speaking from first hand experience, what have you done? Do you have any info that could help the rest of us out? Links, pics, etc. would all be great.

 

[STARION]

Yeah, just got pics of the project and posted them in another thread earlier:

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[GRNDSM]

STARION,

Is this your project? Do you have more info on it?

Leon
RR

 

[UCSLugRacerX]

Holy $hit that is cool. Although shouldn't the engine be turned flipped around, so that the exhaust manifold is pointing towards the rear, and the intake manifold pointing to the front, so that air can be rammed towards the air filter?
Although, with a FWD drivetrain, the direction of the wheels spinning might be difficult to reverse
Anycase, THAT is a freakin cool RWD 4g63t car.

 

[99gst_racer]

i noticed that too. I assume he's running the powerglide setup, but i thought i saw something that made me think different. Something like "clutchless tranny" or something. I really have no idea what he's running, but damn is he fast! The car looks sweet too.

Yeah, he probably is running the powerglide set-up. I have a customer that is building a tubbed-out RWD 2G 4G63 with a powerglide and a 9" Ford rearend. He seems to be pretty optimistic about the project......

 

[iamtall77]

Sweet project STARION. Will this be a rigid axle in the rear? Or have you just not gotten to the suspension yet? Looks like alot of fun! That thing probaly won't weigh more than 1000lbs. With no exhaust and just a little tuning you should get at least 250-275hp to the wheels. Now a 4:1 weight to power sounds ubsurd! Think, the stock DSM weighs (roughly) 3000lbs and only puts out about 180hp to the wheels. It can manage a 12 second quater mile with the listed minimum 250-275 hp. Reduce the weight by more than half and what do you get? A great ride! Let everyone know how it turns out and keep us posted. Fill in any technical areas that would help some of us other project builders to reach our goals.

99_gst: Let us know if your freind reaches his goal. The Powerglide/9 inch combo is a great setup that a lot of muscle car guys use. Those things will handle more power than you can put to them. Huge torque capacities and simple setup. If you can get us any pics, post them for all to see.

I see the discussion and projects have swayed into the custom-custom setups, which is cool. But does anyone have swaps into everyday cars? If you haven't been following the post, check back and see some of the links and names posted. Eric Plabani (i'm sure i butcher his name every time) Mighty Mouse, TurboMirage.com and others. Keep it coming.

 

[STARION]

STARION,

Is this your project? Do you have more info on it?

Leon
RR

Yeah, it's gonna be my daily driver when it gets done...registration and titling is actually fairly simple in VA for completely homebuilt vehicles.

Here's some basic info on it, have webspace, but no time to build any site yet. let me know if you wanna know anything else:

-All 4 of the cars hubs and brakes are off the front of a 1G DSM (so I only need to order 1 kind of brake pad ....needs a proportioning valve of course ), needed to fab strut adaptors for the hubs, and the suspension isn't all done yet, but it will be double wishbones all around with bellcranked inboard coilovers.

-E-brake will be a hydraulic type using a small clutch master Cyl. connected to the handle, rather than cables.

Wiring harness needs a LOT of monkeying with....I'm using the entire body and engine harness for the lights, cruise control, gauges, AC, heat, etc.

Shifter cables are ok, but need to be extended, same goes for the speedo and throttle cables.

Bodywork will be a center section with sidepods, and front and rear clamshells.

Completed tube chassis weighed in at 255 pounds even.

 

[GRNDSM]

Any pics on info on the Fiero?

Sorry it took me a while to get the photos:

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You can find more at: http://www.phobia.net/~dsm4sale/fiero/engineinstall/

 

[iamtall77]

Nice setup! How is the suspension? I'd imagine there is another hybrid setup, since i doubt the two share many measurement. By that i mean, will the rear shocks from the Fiero mate with the mounting point on the DSM wheel hubs? The only problem I see with the setup is the firewall that you pointed out already. Break out the heat wrap! Keep us updated on that guys progress. What types of issues are there in the wiring harness? I really haven't brought that issue up. Doesn't the stock DSM ECU control or monitor just about everything on the car? Are the lighting and climate controls separate? TMO makes an EPROM chip to disable the AC on high throttle, that would mean that the ECU at least has some input from devices. I know you can just clip that wire or not hook it up, but what types of things have the Starion guys used in their swaps? Any input here?

 

[GRNDSM]

It uses a Fiero engine cradle, so suspension is already there. The tricky part was to join the axles together. They are DSM on one inside and Fiero on the outside .

 

[UCSLugRacerX]

Go ahead and laugh, but ultimatly I want to get a Vintage 1968 Austin Mini Cooper shell, and take my 1G AWD DSM, and then stuff the 4G63t in the Mini's tiny engine bay, then buy a Shepard racing tranny, with a Cusco 35/65 center differential, and a Quaife front LSD.
Next, cut and mount a 2G DSM 4 bolt rear end, with a custom driveshaft, with a Kazz LSD in the rear, on the Mini.
Next, cut and weld, and cut and weld, so I could stuff 275/50/15 sized Bridgestone Potenza SO-3 tires under all 4 fenders.

Imagine the quarkiness of a Mini Cooper styling, coupled with go-cart handling characteristics, with a potent 4G63t powerplant, with AWD (LSD's F&R), 275 wide tires, and a 1,400 lbs stock CURB WEIGHT. The car would out-handle many Porshes, and with a heavy weight turbo slapped on the 4G63, the car could kill a Z06 vette, or even a Viper.

The 4G63 is a beautiful motor, but our DSM's are just so damn heavy. If one were to build a 4G63t AWD Mini Cooper, than would F*cking amazing.

 

[GRNDSM]

>Go ahead and laugh, but ultimatly I want to get a Vintage 1968 Austin Mini Cooper shell,

That might not be a bad idea if… you put it in the rear, as-in Mid engine RWD mode. Similar to what my friend is going to the Fiero. Ford made a SHO/Fiestiva with a similar arrangement in the 80’s.

>take my 1G AWD DSM, and then stuff the 4G63t in the Mini's tiny engine bay

See, now you are talking things that just might not be possible… I highly doubt that you will have enough room. Did you ever see the distance between the Mini front wheels and the radiator grill? Bare in mind that our axles are BEHIND the motor, so you will have to fit the engine and the exhaust manifold in around 12”… Even if you do things like scoops, bulges and relocating things, I still do not think that it would work… At that point, why ruin a perfectly nice Mini? I bet there will be almost NOTING left of the original car.

>then buy a Shepard racing tranny, with a Cusco 35/65 center differential,
> and a Quaife front LSD. Next, cut and mount a 2G DSM 4 bolt rear end,
>with a custom driveshaft, with a Kazz LSD in the rear, on the Mini.
>Next, cut and weld, and cut and weld, so I could stuff 275/50/15 sized
>Bridgestone Potenza SO-3 tires under all 4 fenders.

I see you addressing lots of inconsequential details and none of the important once… This makes it look like just a fantasy…

>wide tires, and a 1,400 lbs stock CURB WEIGHT.

It will be no-where near Mini’s original Curb Weight!!!

Starion has the right idea of how to make such project: build a tube car and then throw some kit car body on it

 

[UCSLugRacerX]

OF COURSE it's a fantasy. Although, at the same time, if the engine was relocated to the middle, and the car was AWD, and weight 1,400 lbs (all hypothetical that is) could there be a MORE perfect car? I think not.

 

[iamtall77]

Found a great link. http://hotrodders.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=10418&highlight=r154

This might help. It appears the R154 Toyota transmission has the same basic setup as the W58 series. It is a more heavy duty transmission and should be fairly available at a bone yard. If the R154 is not available, the other R series transmissions should be plentiful. Most are 4WD but should be able to convert to 2WD. They are found on a number of Toyota trucks from about 87-up. The only drawback to the R154 is a weak thrust washer on 1st gear. There are some Chromoly pieces being made, but haven't located a distributor or manufacturer. The stock thrust washer should hold up to 400hp if you go easy on it. It could be a teporary setup until you get the RWD conversion in and tested.

The information frorm the above link gives hope to those searching for transmissions and possible projects. It would allow the 4G63 to be adapted to many GM, Chrysler, or Toyota transmissions. With the adaptor plate i mentioned earlier in the thread, just about any of the transmissions from these manufacturers could be used.

Of course all of this is speculation. I'm sourcing parts for a summer build. I'm planning on running a 4G63 with an R154 transmission. All set in a Datsun 510 using the Subaru rear end. I plan to tub or flare (maybe both) the rear for fatter tires. Other than that, just a nice suspension, clean body and mostly bolt-on power for the 4G63. Should turn out to be about a $5,000 project. Of course it always turns out to be more, but that's what I'm shooting for. Anyone can chime in and give me ideas or if you're woking on a project of your own, send em in. I'd love to see what other people are doing. (Is that Fiero done yet?)