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Trannies for RWD

Posted by iamtall77, Aug 3, 2004

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  1. iamtall77

    iamtall77 Proven Member

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    Joined Oct 9, 2002
    Las Vegas, Nevada
    This conversion is becoming more common, but it is still difficult to find info on the subject. I know that:
    1) The Mighty Max/D50 bellhousing matches the turbo block, but doesn't support power well.
    2)The Starion/Conquest tranny supports the power and the internals are close enough to that of the MM/D50 that you can swap them in.
    3)Buschur mates a Powerglide using a special adapter plate to the block
    4)Some type of Toyota transmission can mate with the block using a welded hybrid bellhousing. the 4G63 bolt patern is cut from the tranny and welded to the Toyota gearbox.

    Here's the problem:
    1) What Toyota gearbox is it? I think it's the Celica/Supra, but who knows?
    2) The NT 4G63 block is supposed to be a "wide" block and can mate to the Starion tranny correctly. Is that true? Are there any other transmissions that mate like that? (Some one said a Mazda truck tranny)
    3) I heard a rumor that the Starion motor can bolt up to a GM tranny. Any fact behind that? It might mean that if #2 was correct then a GM tranny should mate to a NT "wide" block.

    Anyone wondering why i'm thinking this, just listen. I have an AWD car and love it. But wouldn't it be nice to have the power to weight of the 4G63 in a slightly more efficient design? What about a 4G63 in a Miata or RX-7? Think of how much more simple the RWD layout is. No weak links to hold back from creating huge RELIABLE power. The tranny on the DSM is a known weak link. Extreme used to go through 3 transmissions in a weakend of racing. Shep has to overbuild the transmission to hold the power he puts down. How many AWD drag cars are there in the 3 second range? How many DSMs can make an 8 sec pass and not rip out the gears? Hell how many Skylines are in the 8 sec. range? (i've seen a mid 10 sec run at 5,000 ft here in Colorado) The AWD setup is great for holding traction in less than ideal situations and getting the power to the ground. But physics dictate that weight transfer in acceleration is going to end up in the rear (that's if you're going straight) Besides, we've accomplished so much with the DSM, why not go another direction?

    My 2ยข :cool:
     
  2. Turbonium

    Turbonium Awaiting Email Verification

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    Ithaca, New York
    the toyota tranny ur talking about is the W58 used in the 80's supra, and some volvo's and some other crap but mostly the Celica supra,. i agree w/ the RWD idea (i drive an 84 supra as a beater) but i think that those like shep would have to make drastically more HP to make the same 1/4 mile times on a rwd setup as opposd to the AWD they run now. however an 88 RX-7 w/ a 4g63 has crossed my mind many a time when i read about these rwd conversions.
    just my .02
    -Ryan
     
  3. iamtall77

    iamtall77 Proven Member

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    Las Vegas, Nevada
    What do you mean that Shep and others would have to make more power to run a RWD setup? Look at Buschur's Starion. It runs as fast or faster. Granted it's a tube chassey, but other than Shep who runs 8's on AWD? Maybe someone will figure out an ideal AWD setup and drag race that. I'm not sure why Skylines don't run faster more often. I hear about 700+ HP Skylines and never hear about fast times. Like I said before, I've seen a mid 10sec Skline GTR34 at 5000ft elelvation. Should be good for at least 10 flat at sea level. The car was SWEET. Red with gold metal flake, stock looking interior with both seats and a roll cage. Clean runs and didn't even spin or chirp the tires. Anyways that's off subject.
    Thanks for the info on the Toyota tranny. If anyone can find more examples of 4G63 swaps, post em. I know there's a Suzuki Samuri with a 4G63 and a W58 tranny, a Porche (Eric Plebani?) a Triumph TR7 (or something) lots of Starions, and quite a few Mighty Maxs. My main focus is just info on what trannys work and how they are mated to the block. Thanks all.
     
  4. iamtall77

    iamtall77 Proven Member

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    Las Vegas, Nevada
    After some searching i have found this info:
    The W58 Transmission came on a number of US Toyota cars
    81-92 Celica/Supra cars (non-turbo Supra only)
    82-Up Cressenda
    Early SC300's
    I have also found that the load capacity of the transmission is light in comparison to the 4G63T capable outputs. The transmission has been rated between 300-350 flywheel horsepower. A mildly modified 4G63 could easily break this transmission. However, Toyota made the much stronger R154 that came on the Supra turbo and can handle a reported 400+hp. I've seen many swaps of this transmission in my search to Chevy small block V8's.
    The difference in the transmissions themselves i've seen little on. The R154 is about 1" longer overall and the shifer is 2" farther back with the bellhouseing 1" longer. I haven't seen a swap of the bellhousings, but should be possible. The W58 is a very popular upgrade for vintage Jaguars with a few companies actually making custom bellhousings to mate to the Jaguar engines. There are also companies making custom bellhousings for the R154 for SB Chevys and V12 Jaguar engines.
    Further searching, i cound that the Jeep AX15 found on 89-up 4.0L & 4.2L engines is very similar to the Toyota R154. Input shafts are different and the Jeep tranny is meant for a transfercase, meaning it shouldn't have provisions for RWD driveshafts without modification. However, the internals are very similar dispite gearing varioations between the two.
    I'm still looking for the right transmission and the right car. As of now, i'm looking at a 4G63T powered Miata with a R154 transmission. This would be a very custom setup requiring a new bellhouseing and problably floorpan work to fit the tranny in. I haven't looked to see if the Miata rear end will hold the power, but that's a little down the road. My other dream setup would be into a newer Dodge Stratus. I always thought that would make a nice RWD car.

    ;)
     
  5. UCSLugRacerX

    UCSLugRacerX Proven Member

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    Santa Cruz, California
    If you read the posts of people who have completed the RWD conversion, you probably have noticed the VAST amount of difficulty in the conversion. I too have pondered over the conversion. What I would like to know, is what are your goals with this car? Only drag racing in a straight line? Are you planning on driving it on the street? The 50/50 power split with the AWD is actually a very good design in terms of overall traction. If you're looking for a car with power-on-oversteer, then get a RWD car. I.e, RX7, miata, 240sx, etc...
    If you want something reasonable, get a Cusco center differential (which has a 35f/65r, --or maybe it's 30f/65r power split) and a shep tranny. This will most likely be cheaper, and much less difficult than fabricating a tranny and rear end for your DSM.
    Unless you plan on spending weeks, if not months or years building the monstrosity, and have access to a welder, lift, etc...etc... then the project will be quite difficult. (I really don't like to sound as though I'm discouraging you from doing this, but rather informing you of it's difficulties.)

    If you do insist on making your DSM RWD, make sure you post pics! Document it, and keep us updated! :thumb:

    Good luck!

    -Andrew
     
  6. iamtall77

    iamtall77 Proven Member

    177
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    Joined Oct 9, 2002
    Las Vegas, Nevada
    i'm not really planning on making a RWD DSM, but rather a 4G63 powered car. Too long have the Mitsu efforts to build such a great powerplant gone unnoticed to the certain crowd that hates FWD and knows nothing of AWD. im not looking to build a drag car (Buschur and others) but rather an example of what can be done. I've only heard of a few RWD swaps into Starions which has become fairly straitforward. I'm looking to make something a little more exotic. I do understand the efforts that will be required to do this, but this post was meant just to gather info on the transmission possibilities. Obviously I would like to keep it as strait forward as possible for simplicities sake. However, on a job like this, just about everything will be custom/one off made. If anyone has more info on the transmissions that available or any custom jobs you've heard of, please post them and we can show the world how the 4G63 gets down! :thumb:
     
  7. autronicDSM

    autronicDSM Proven Member

    578
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    Kalamazoo, Michigan
    Do you have a link to a vendor who carries those for our cars?
     
  8. iamtall77

    iamtall77 Proven Member

    177
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    Joined Oct 9, 2002
    Las Vegas, Nevada
    I did more searching and according to Driveline.com here are some similarities i've found.
    Starion Transmissions:
    83-87 Turbo KM132-M
    85-87 w/intercooler KM132-M
    88-89 w/intercooler KM132-N
    Similar Mitsu Pickup Ttannies:
    83-85 2.3L Turbo Diesel 2WD KM132-E
    83-86 2.6L 2WD KM132-9
    83-89 2.0L 2WD KM132-8/R5M21
    Dodge D50
    87-89 2.0L KM132-K&8
    83-85 2.3L Turbo Diesel KM132-6
    87-89 2.6L KM312-1
    87-89 2.6L 4x4 KM132-8
    90-93 2.4L KM132-1
    with these similarities i'm guessing that some of the following may be true
    87-89 PU 2.6L R5M21 may fit a KM132 application
    looking at applications for the F5M33 (our AWD tranny) it seems to fit a fair amount of 2.4L blocks:
    92-96 Eagle AWD
    92-96 Expo AWD
    93 Expo LRV
    91-97 Stealth (i think that's a typo)
    Given this info, we might be able to make certain assumptions:
    the 2.4L block may be similar enough to use a KM-132 transmission, or the bellhousing from one of the 2.4L trucks. Given the info i've seen, the Starion transmission may not be all that dissimilar than first thought and may not actually handle more power dispite seeing differences in the gear size. Additionally there may be quite a few possible transmissions that will blot up to our block. i will research more on the engines that are in these vehicles and see what similarities there are and the possiblities of direct bolt up applications. If anyone else cares to help with this research project it would help. There's only so much time I can spend surfing the web at work. ;)
     
  9. theboogieman

    theboogieman Proven Member

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    No input here from me but if anyone has a link to the Triumph with a 4g63 I would appreciate it. Always been a fan of those cars for some weird reason.
    Leo
     
  10. iamtall77

    iamtall77 Proven Member

    177
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    Joined Oct 9, 2002
    Las Vegas, Nevada
    Here are some useful links i've found in my search:
    www.beatingyou.com
    www.turbomirage.com
    www.geocites.com/piercedjd/4G63Conquest.html
    www.mightymouseracer.com
    www.dentsport.com

    All of these deal with mounting a 4G63 as a RWD setup. Mightymouse is the only DSM i've seen with a RWD setup. Dentsport has a good teardown of a KM132 tranny swap with the Mightmax casing and Starion guts. The geocites web page has one of only 2 W58 swaps i've seen. it has good info, but is a little hard to navigate the site. I can't remember the other site. A guy put a 4G64 witha W58 tranny, all kinds of transfercases and such into a Suzuki Samurai. Anyways i hope this will help some others to build their own custom machines. :thumb:
     
  11. iamtall77

    iamtall77 Proven Member

    177
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    Joined Oct 9, 2002
    Las Vegas, Nevada
    Found another interesting tidbit. Ford was using Mitsubishi transmissions in the BroncoII and Ranger. It is listed that the KM132 is fit on the 85-Up Ranger. i doubt the bellhousing is the same as the 4G63, but if the internals are the same (relatively) then i assume it would bolt up. The Ranger and Bronco are comon vehicles and can be found in many scrap yards. I also assume that the transmission in these vehicles will handle more torque than the flimsy D50 version of the KM132. All of this is speculation and i will research more and post.
     
  12. iamtall77

    iamtall77 Proven Member

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    Las Vegas, Nevada
    This is some info i stole from the Drivetrain.com website. These transmissions are listed as "light duty" and i've heard rumors of the power handling only being good for 200hp. Anyways, if these are any indication that Ford was making similar bellhousings on these units to the 4G63, it opens the possibility that there are even more transmissions that may bolt up. i may be taking a trip to the scrap yard shortly to measure and verify some of these speculations. :rolleyes:
    D50 is a common industry name describing a series of Mitsubishi manufactured 4 and 5 speed transmis-sions, which are found in Dodge and Mitsubishi small trucks. The models include the KM131 4 speed transmission used in Dodge D50 trucks from 1983-85, the KM132 5speed, 2wd, transmission used in Dodge D50 trucks from 1983 and up, and the KM145 5 speed, 4wd transmission used in Dodge D50 trucks from 1983 to present. These same transmissions are found in Mitsubishi trucks also. These units are similar in design to the FM146 except that the bell housing integral to the main case. There are many design levels of this unit and it is extremely important to get tooth counts and input bearing numbers be-fore ordering parts. There should be a model number and alphanumeric code stamped on the bell hous-ing which helps to identify the units
    FM146
    5-speed transmission synchronized in all gears (including reverse). Built in 4wd version only. When used in 2 WD vehicles there is an open dummy transfer case used. Aluminum bell housing, case and extension housing with removable bell housing. The extension housing measures 13" in length and there is a 12 bolt-steel bottom pan on unit. This unit is manufactured by Mitsubishi and is used on Ford Ranger and Bronco II vehicles from 1988-92. A red id tag located on left side of case shows Ford part number and unit serial number.
    M5R1
    1988 to present Mazda built, fully synchronized 5-speed transmission, found in Ford Ranger and Explorer trucks. Aluminum case with integral bell housing, aluminum extension housing, and aluminum shift cover. Available in 2 and 4WD models. ID decal on left side of case. The shift cover was modified in 1995 to have a taller shift cover and neutral position switch in cover was eliminated. In 1998 the stub stick in shift cover was changed to accept shift lever with groove on right side. Used with 2.3L,2.9L,3.0L, and 4.0L engines. Ratios will vary with engine size and so will starter locations on bell housing.
     
  13. leakyfaucet

    leakyfaucet Proven Member

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    cincinnati, Vermont
    Okay, so there aren't any 3 second AWD cars. Fine. But your point is kind of nill considering there are no 3 second RWD cars either. :p
     
  14. iamtall77

    iamtall77 Proven Member

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    Las Vegas, Nevada
    Okay so 4.5 sec runs. :p That's a regular occurance for Top Fuel cars at over 300mph. Drag cars aren't meant to be AWD. AWD is meant for safety and ease of driving under less than ideal conditions. It's true that it does help put power to the ground and gives you great launch times, but honestly once you reach certain power levels, it only add drivetrain loss in power. Don't give me the "but those guys are running egines 3 times as big as our engines." Look at what race cars are running AWD-Rally-that's it. Yeah i know that the Skyline runs races too, but what else?I'm defintately not knocking AWD, i'd be a crappy driver without it. I'm just saying that for MOST conditions and once you approach greater power levels, AWD loses its advantage. It's not quite as fun either. ;)
     
  15. IntactTSI

    IntactTSI Proven Member

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    Sanford, Maine
    I once read about this porsche in Turbo magazine. 4G63 Powered, running 11's. Looks like it took tons of modifications, but I think It came out good.. Here are some pictures I found on the net of it, no good engine shots, but from what I can tell it was Dec 2003 Turbo that had the article. They called it the Porschubishi.
    attachment.gif
     

    Attached Files:

  16. iamtall77

    iamtall77 Proven Member

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    Las Vegas, Nevada
    The Porche in question belongs to Eric Plebani (is that how you spell it) he is supposed to be the originator of the 4G63 swaps. He invented Mighty Mouse, a RWD Talon (front end of a 1Gb with a 1Ga rear bady work) he's also done countless Starion swaps. He isn't very out going with his info on doing the swaps. He would rather try to make money than let others experience the thrill. I have some more info i've found that i'll post later on the RWD setups.
     
  17. iamtall77

    iamtall77 Proven Member

    177
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    Las Vegas, Nevada
    The best link i've found!
    www.japaneseauto.com/pages4
    The guy makes an adapter plate to mate a W55 to a Mitsu bellhousing. Simple, no welding and you can keep your flywheel, clutch and all the other goodies. It lacks some detail, but you get the idea. The bellhousing and gearbox look small enough that you should be able to fit this into just about any vehicle. I have already contacted him trying to get more info on the plates he made. If i don't get a response, i'm just going to make my own. (unless someone beats me to it.
    Added info:
    It appears that Mazda used a Mitsu 2.4L block on the B2600 trucks. The transmission used on it is the same fitted to the Turbo RX-7 from 86-92 (before the FD) The same transmision can be found in the 929, B2600 and the MPV. I believe the bellhousing is the only fitment issue requiring the one that mates to the 2.4L block. It won't fit our 2.0L block, but opens the issue of fitting it to Starion motors, and 2.4L hybrids. It should also be the same as the G63b "wide block" found in the Mighty Max SOHC 2.0L
    Hope everyone finds this useful. I will keep searching in my free time, but i'm going to have to start my project soon. (after i buy a house with a decent garage<soon i hope>) If you have more info, keep adding to this list. links and photos are a great help.

    :dsm: :talon: :laser: :thumb:
     
  18. iamtall77

    iamtall77 Proven Member

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    Las Vegas, Nevada
    UPDATE!
    I have been in contact with the gentleman at the japanese link above. he is sending me more detailed info on the adapter plate he made. this seems to be the simplest solution i have found. Many people have used the Toyota tranny with the 4G63 making it a reasonable solution. I'm still unclear on the power handling capabilities of the W58. It is untrue that the Mitsu tranny from the Ford engines will work well. It may be similar, but it was meant for low powered 4 cyl Fords, not a good item. The Mazda unit is still a viable option for those with wide blocks and/or 2.6L engines. It should be similar in belhousing design as the Starion units. It should be capable of similar power levels, and it DOES have a removable bellhousing. That means it should be capable of the same type of adapter plate mod that the Toyota tranny has been used with. I am not positive, but will look into the bellhousing sizes for non turbo Mitsu engines that we can "steal" bellhousings from. (1.8L, Eagle cars, Hyundai cars etc) if the bellhousings are the same, then we don't have to use our turbo tranny bellhousings and just sell the unit for some quick cash. I'll get back to this post with more info as it becomes available to me. :thumb:
     
  19. SurgeGT

    SurgeGT Proven Member

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    ,
    well, just to throw this out there. i have a 4g63 in my porsche 911, i thought i was being original. i ran into eric plebani with his (completed!) conversion about mid way though. he spilled info like an open book! my project was well under way, i didnt need anything from him, but he offered all he could. very cool guy. (there are three 4g63 powered porsche's that i know of, and one that was started, i dont know if the guy finished)

    anyway, i'd be happy to share any info anyone might have. the 4g63 is a solid motor. stick it in RWD and its nothing but fun :thumb:
     
  20. kbrock1

    kbrock1 Proven Member

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    Does anyone know how much the buschur adaptor plate cost. I have alway dreamed of a dsm S-10. I love the way an S-10 looks but I love my dsm. Also when you get a price on the toyota adaptor plate please post.
     
  21. iamtall77

    iamtall77 Proven Member

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    Las Vegas, Nevada
    As far as the adaptor plate for the Toyota tranny use the above link. wait don't use it, it's wrong. try www.japaneseauto.com it's on page 4. (not sure why the link won't work) He still has the template and I'm sure he'd be glad to make a piece for you. Should be pretty cheap. I have to hold off on my own project so i can buy a house. As far as Buschur goes, you can always contact him and ask. can't imagine that it would cost that much, but Buschur thinks highly of his products. (most for good reason) The S-10 idea is cool, but you can always move the firewall and drop in a 454 or the like. Seen it done once or twice. If anyone actually makes it to their project, post it and let us know. I'll get to mine as soon as humanly possible. It might also be pretty cheap if a club decided to create a Club car using available parts sitting in their collective garages. That might help to spread out the cost. Just a thought.

    ;)
     
  22. yhype

    yhype Proven Member

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    Thurmont, Maryland
    I guess the 2.6l starion transmission doesn't bolt up to the 2.0l.? :dsm:
     

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  23. 91AWDDSM

    91AWDDSM Proven Member

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    The vast majority of 88+ 2wd Rangers have this tranny. But the engines attached to it are totally gutless.
     
  24. Turbonium

    Turbonium Awaiting Email Verification

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    g oto wwww.celicasupra.com for info on the w58 toyota tranny, it is rated at 300-350 i believe, while thise isn't great for a drag car how many of you are running 400hp? and if you break one of these trannys its not like there isn't 30 in every junk yard (except when i'm looking for a diff. for my supra,) there is also info on what supra trannys, you can use on the mark2 . i believe there is a bellhousing made to put the 86.5-92 turbo supra tranny in place of a w58 markiii supras make 230 stock but idk the limit of that tranny. i thought the sc300's were all auto?? i'm not arguing this i'm just curious i liek like the look of the sc300. thanks
    Ryan
     
  25. iamtall77

    iamtall77 Proven Member

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    Las Vegas, Nevada
    No the Starion tranny doesn't mate up. Read the above posts for info. Basically the bellhousing on the Starion is too large. Yes the W58 is a great option, but honestly you can be over 350hp with less than $3000 in your car. (considering it was running well before the mods) I'm not sure about the interchangability of the Celica/Supra tranny (W58) and the Supra Turbo tranny (R154). I assume just about any transmission would work if the input shaft was right or if the flywheel was machined to accept the input shaft. The method of my adaption will be that of the gentleman who uses the adapter plate. It's simple and should accept the power I plan on. I will look into the Supra Turbo and Non-turbo interchangability. It seems like a more stout tranny, but if the 4G63 puts the smack down, no tranny is safe. (except the Powerglide and other 1000+hp handling trannys) :cool:
     

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