Tough one here: Warped an O-ringed head, now what?

[sweet97]

GTM I think being called an info whore is a good thing. It may be along the lines of a cool car being called "sick". You are knowledgeable and that's sick, sorry I meant cool.
I'm sending the head to a machoine shop in Chicago on the advice of a friend. Will keep yopu all informed. I suggest you stay away from o-ringed heads. Mark

 

[groundPork]

I blew a coolant hose and warped my O-ringed head. It will require removing about .030" to clean it up removing the O-ring grooves. My cams have lifts of .425" intake and .416" exhaust. The pistons are Wiseco's notched more than stockers. With a standard .062" thick gasket is there a chance I will have proper piston to valve clearance? Anyone removed this much from a head and used it this way? I have heard of thicker head gaskets but have not seen anyone with them so far.
OK you experienced racers who must have had your heads surfaced more than once or twice, what can you typically get away with? Thanks, mark

Hey remember... if you warped the deck, you may have warped the whole head. bolt your cams in with light oil (WD 40 or 10w motor oil). try to free turn by hand, if it binds you may have warped the whole head. milling it flat and bolting down to the block can make the head flex the other way still causing bind in the cams. you should concider having a head repair guy heat the head (anneal it) then have it heat treated. Best suggestion should you find the head warped though... go to the junk yard, and pull another head for next to nothing!

 

[Turbo Shogun]

There may be a tech article on degreeing your cams, I didn't write it but have written a few post in years past.

http://www.enginelogics.com/camdegree.html

It seems a bit confusing at first but with a bit of thinking it became clear to me. I don't know how much I would gain if I degreed my 264's, though. And I'm afraid I've become paranoid about close piston/valve tolerances.

 

[sweet97]

Hey remember... if you warped the deck, you may have warped the whole head. bolt your cams in with light oil (WD 40 or 10w motor oil). try to free turn by hand, if it binds you may have warped the whole head. milling it flat and bolting down to the block can make the head flex the other way still causing bind in the cams. you should concider having a head repair guy heat the head (anneal it) then have it heat treated. Best suggestion should you find the head warped though... go to the junk yard, and pull another head for next to nothing!

The head is on it's way to Chicago and a man who knows his machine work so it will be in good hands. I would hate to scrap a $1600. head for one from a junk yard. It's a Buschur stage 3. Thanks, mark

 

[sweet97]

http://www.enginelogics.com/camdegree.html

It seems a bit confusing at first but with a bit of thinking it became clear to me. I don't know how much I would gain if I degreed my 264's, though. And I'm afraid I've become paranoid about close piston/valve tolerances.

Don't worry. My Crower stage 4's have .425"/.416" lift and 9:1 Wiseco's and no problems. mark
PS: 272's have .406"/.386".

 

[steel_3d]

Turbo Shogun, I've thought about that too, but degreeing in particular requires solid lifters (or at least one solid lifter). I think even if you pressurized the lifters like GTM suggested, they might be too springy to do accurate degreeing... At least Darren at ffwd told me you need solid lifters.

Personally I'd rather tune cams on the dyno to get the type of curve I want (I generally favor low end, and spool). I wouldn't be worried about interference. Even if the cams are ground slightly off, it wouldn't be the 10+ degrees necessary to cause piston to valve contact, so if that's your only reason I'd say forget about it.

GTM, thanks for the info, as always. I didn't find the paper on the cummins site, but I've found a bunch of other useful info. I'm still reading up. Not the best use of company time, but hey

As for being in a hurry, I'm not in enough of a hurry to shortcut or mess up the basics. Hell, that's why I didn't put my motor together with over .001" out of round and taper in my cylinders, and now I'm without a car for another month and a half or more till it's right. It just seems like I can skip the piston to valve clearance checking with my combo. But if anyone's run into trouble with a setup like this, I'll definitely do it.

 

[GTM]

GTM I think being called an info whore is a good thing. It may be along the lines of a cool car being called "sick". You are knowledgeable and that's sick, sorry I meant cool.
I'm sending the head to a machoine shop in Chicago on the advice of a friend. Will keep yopu all informed. I suggest you stay away from o-ringed heads. Mark

I understood it was a compliment though have shown my age with some slang along the very lines you mention. Even my kids will use it when with their peers but will turn and explain the context to me. I was accused a couple years back by a member of plagerism based on his opinion that nobody could know as much about cars as me. Criminies!! Want to see me out on a limb, just ask what I know about modding... zilch.
.............

Super that you have people helping with this ugly turn of events. I thought about suggesting you send it out here and I could run it around to different shops to get a better idea of how to solve the problems. Did you get a chance to examine the head once you had it off? My concern was that anything that was done without trying to straighten it to some degree was just asking for trouble from the cam bores.

The workaround for this is to rebore them and then use insert bearings from some small bore motorcycle because they are commonly available. You don't want to get hung out to dry with some obscure insane size that takes an act of congress to obtain.

You will have the head plenty hot (if you want it) when filling in the "O" rings which would offer opportunity to apply bending pressure. The work around for this is to fill it with running water (not wet rags) which will keep the heat local.

My concerns are you are into such specialized areas that not everyone has all the skills/knowledge needed to effect proper repairs. Just some of the content of this thread would have a lot of people scratching because they have never been there and done that. Considering that so few parts get rebuilt when they are iffy they would rather blow you out the door having you buy new.
...........

Hope I wasn't offensive when I made mention of a couple of "engineers" with egos who have wanted to take me to task on this site, you may have come across them as well. I would really appreciate your input/arguments on why to stay away from o-ringed heads.

Cheers,
GTM

 

[Turbo Shogun]

The head is on it's way to Chicago and a man who knows his machine work so it will be in good hands. I would hate to scrap a $1600. head for one from a junk yard. It's a Buschur stage 3. Thanks, mark

If you don't mind me asking ... Who is doing your headwork? I'm actually looking for a few good machine shops in the area. I was considering EngineTecs to mill my head and drill my 1G rods for 2G pistons.

 

[GTM]

Turbo Shogun, I've thought about that too, but degreeing in particular requires solid lifters (or at least one solid lifter). I think even if you pressurized the lifters like GTM suggested, they might be too springy to do accurate degreeing... At least Darren at ffwd told me you need solid lifters.

Personally I'd rather tune cams on the dyno to get the type of curve I want (I generally favor low end, and spool). I wouldn't be worried about interference. Even if the cams are ground slightly off, it wouldn't be the 10+ degrees necessary to cause piston to valve contact, so if that's your only reason I'd say forget about it.

GTM, thanks for the info, as always. I didn't find the paper on the cummins site, but I've found a bunch of other useful info. I'm still reading up. Not the best use of company time, but hey

As for being in a hurry, I'm not in enough of a hurry to shortcut or mess up the basics. Hell, that's why I didn't put my motor together with over .001" out of round and taper in my cylinders, and now I'm without a car for another month and a half or more till it's right. It just seems like I can skip the piston to valve clearance checking with my combo. But if anyone's run into trouble with a setup like this, I'll definitely do it.

Oh boy almost pushing a button here.

There is no doubt this is easier with solid lifters but I disagree and furthur would be hesitant to switch them just for dialing. Permit me yet another tangent for a moment.

Mfgs are not installing automatic hydraulic lash adjusters because they are cheaper to make. Nor is it to save the customer money because of less maintenance. It's because they do control valve clearances better than solid manual adjusters. This brings us to maintaining engine temps and the curse of engines getting overheated and metal parts expanding. Namely valve stems growing several thousandths and reducing clearances to 0. Burned valves are almost a thing of the past, forget a lot of the statements you may read, few are actually burned because they didn't adjust correctly. Keeping the oil clean and changed is the difference which plays a roll in their reliability. If memory serves they only run .002"-.003" self adjusing clearance which is pretty impressive in my book. Again it took the Japanese to perfect what Detroit had use for decades but were 3x the size and less reliable.

The advantages of solid adjusters is the ability to change performance qualities where you need more torque by contacting the opening ramp sooner for short track vs a road race track with long straights where you need RPM. Adjustable cam gears can't do that by themselves for they only control when to open and the overlap but not the duration.

I quickly read through some of the above mentioned site and have to lift an eyebrow when he states using a degree wheel. You can do much better with a $1 protractor and cardboard. There are some posts around here where I've explained to some extent how to go about degreeing cams without coat hanger wires and $20 degree wheels when all was needed was taping the homemade degree wheel to the crank pulley.
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You are welcome, it's always a pleasure to have a thread with intelegent discussions and exchange of ideas.
...................

...
Best suggestion should you find the head warped though... go to the junk yard, and pull another head for next to nothing!

Read previous posts, this has already been discussed. Would that he could go to a scrap yard for a head, just one minor point it's a $7,000 head you are suggesting he scrap. The whole point of this was how to not end up with a piece of junk.

Suggesting WD-40 is somehow equal to a 10wt motor oil when it's mostly solvents is like fingernails on a blackboard to me. Please don't repeate this for it's not supported or endorsed by WD-40 and you run a good risk of galled aluminum parts.

Cheers,
GTM

 

[groundPork]

Oh boy almost pushing a button here.

There is no doubt this is easier with solid lifters but I disagree and furthur would be hesitant to switch them just for dialing. Permit me yet another tangent for a moment.

Mfgs are not installing automatic hydraulic lash adjusters because they are cheaper to make. Nor is it to save the customer money because of less maintenance. It's because they do control valve clearances better than solid manual adjusters. This brings us to maintaining engine temps and the curse of engines getting overheated and metal parts expanding. Namely valve stems growing several thousandths and reducing clearances to 0. Burned valves are almost a thing of the past, forget a lot of the statements you may read, few are actually burned because they didn't adjust correctly. Keeping the oil clean and changed is the difference which plays a roll in their reliability. If memory serves they only run .002"-.003" self adjusing clearance which is pretty impressive in my book. Again it took the Japanese to perfect what Detroit had use for decades but were 3x the size and less reliable.

The advantages of solid adjusters is the ability to change performance qualities where you need more torque by contacting the opening ramp sooner for short track vs a road race track with long straights where you need RPM. Adjustable cam gears can't do that by themselves for they only control when to open and the overlap but not the duration.

I quickly read through some of the above mentioned site and have to lift an eyebrow when he states using a degree wheel. You can do much better with a $1 protractor and cardboard. There are some posts around here where I've explained to some extent how to go about degreeing cams without coat hanger wires and $20 degree wheels when all was needed was taping the homemade degree wheel to the crank pulley.
..........................

You are welcome, it's always a pleasure to have a thread with intelegent discussions and exchange of ideas.
...................



Read previous posts, this has already been discussed. Would that he could go to a scrap yard for a head, just one minor point it's a $7,000 head you are suggesting he scrap. The whole point of this was how to not end up with a piece of junk.

Suggesting WD-40 is somehow equal to a 10wt motor oil when it's mostly solvents is like fingernails on a blackboard to me. Please don't repeate this for it's not supported or endorsed by WD-40 and you run a good risk of galled aluminum parts.

Cheers,
GTM

Hey buddy. Let me just let you know first off... you aren't a moderator. It's not the best thing for you to be trying to regulate the inflow of information to this guy, who has a legitimate problem. None of us are trying to dog pile him with bogus info (I've been watching all of the posts). And if your re-read my post you'll see it says trying to free spin BY HAND w/ wd-40 as a lubricant. This will allow him to see possible binding areas in the cam bores (not possible with the high shear resistance of high viscocity or synthetics). And unless he's able to turn the cam at 1000 RPM by hand binding will not be a problem... I didn't tell him to chuck the head flat out. But, I have seen it with my own eyes all too often. Guys trying to polish a turd and use to hold a leak in a high dollar boat that ends up sinking because of it... more so when trying to save an expensive part. I am all for not wasting money... hell I'm cheap! But as I alsaawys say, one needs to step back once in a while and evaluate a situation... maybe cut their losses to avoid further repercusions.

He needs to try one step at a time, and that is how he'll make the right decisions.

 

[groundPork]

I have 9:1 pistons. Cams? Yeah I have monster cams. Crower stage 4's.
Intake: 218* duration @ .050" and .425" lift
Exhaust: 216* duration @ .050" and .416" lift. For comparison the popular HKS 272's have these specs:
Intake: 213* duration @ .050" and .406" lift.
Exhaust: 213* duruation @ .050" and .386" lift.
This is not looking good. I am going to do some searching but also ask here. Headgaskets. I know Cometic can make thicker gaskets upon request. I feel that the MLSS is a better gaskit due to the fact that it is OEM and for the most part OEM parts are the best choice. I could get a .092" cometic but that would seem to make a larger area for the gasket to fail since that is where the failure occurs so why make that area wider? So far that is the only thicker gasket I have found. Then there is the question of to copper spray or not. My current head does not seem that smooth to me yet my MLSS held up well as overheating caused the failure due to a hose failure. Maybe composite with a O-ringed head?
I guess since I started this thread I can alter course a bit and ask about gasket prefference and sprays or not. What's the most opopular way to go at 30psi? I have 112 leaded available and if I run pump I back off the boost. Thanks, mark

Relax bud... Yah you've got huge cams and your out of the hole. normally DSM's have mile of v to p . at this point you've got to wonder, why your piston is out of the hole?? deck clearance on a stock 63 is about .015" or so. it surely don't take that much to clean an unwarped deck... I want you to think of it this way... at a minimum, you should have .030" total piston to head clearance. Now, run your numbers, and if you need a thick HG fine. But its not the best idea to run a .100" thick HG. yes you are giving the sealing area more gap to try to seal as you said. It may work, than again... it may just be abandaid. And by the way... copper spray will not stop a HG from blowing if it really wanted to.

 

[sweet97]

The pistons are not out of the hole. I didn't think I said they were, sorry if I did or implied that.
Most of this is now moot as the head has been sent to a competant machine shop at the request of a wiseman. Should have some results later next week.
The most likely scenario if there is warpage is the receiver grooves will be welded closed and the head surfaced and O-rings not installed. I believe Fel-pro makes a very nice gasket or it should be for a price around $175.
Also I could never spin the cam at 1000rpm's with my fingers if I read that correctly. I included the cam caps should an align hone be required also. The head gasket was also included so the machinist, a man named Mitch, should have all he needs to make an educated decision on what needs to be done to save the head. Thanks guys, mark

 

[GTM]

Hey buddy. Let me just let you know first off... you aren't a moderator. It's not the best thing for you to be trying to regulate the inflow of information to this guy, who has a legitimate problem. None of us are trying to dog pile him with bogus info (I've been watching all of the posts).
...

"First off" I'm not your buddy and that tone doesn't sit well here. Most if not all of us including the original poster have more college credits than years.

Second what does a moderator have to do with this thread content. I don't make the rules and neither do moderators, they are not Wisemen, they don't have to be experts in DSMs or autos in general (my license). Hopefully, like all other staff, they know their limitations. If you feel I have misrepresented any fact then send a misinformation report so others will know I'm a fraud. The only thing I would like to "regulate" is egos and incompetency as contributing qualifications. Geepers if I were your age again I'd be soaking this up like a dry sponge and loving every minute rather than assult some mental retard suggesting not to use WD-40 at any speed. I use WD40 as a cutting oil when I use a file but I'm just a numbnuts when compared to Moderators. Loose the familiar, cite with authority, build respect.

Captain USSV Margin
Call Sign KUS 4106

 

[sweet97]

Gee all I got was a "bud". Hey Captian how did you know I had twice the credits as my age? Well I did learn that when there was someone more educated than myself on a particular subject to yield to their knowledge with the confidence that I would get the correct answer as I am sure this head will be saved.Back to sleep! Thanks, Mark

 

[GTM]

Gee all I got was a "bud". Hey Captian how did you know I had twice the credits as my age? Well I did learn that when there was someone more educated than myself on a particular subject to yield to their knowledge with the confidence that I would get the correct answer as I am sure this head will be saved.Back to sleep! Thanks, Mark

Whaaaat.

I just remember something about suffering fools.

Captain is the correct form of address for any vessel owner recognized by Congress. The "buddy" and some reference to "boat"s as if they were going to snow you with their vast knowledge set me off.

Credits you say at my age I can brag I've dropped out of more colleges than most have been on campus. It's a good thing I don't know squat and you need the sagacity of a high school drop out telling you what to do.

Cheers,
GTM

 

[Turbo Shogun]

... so the machinist, a man named Mitch, should have all he needs to make an educated decision on what needs to be done to save the head.

And there's my answer. Thanks. So I'm guessing he does very good work then?

I won a bid on a loaded (minus cams/gears) '94 head for ~$60 shipped on eBay, but the seller won't respond to my e-mails asking to send the cam bearing caps.

 

[steel_3d]

GTM, are you saying you can accurately degree cams with hydraulic lifters? Just asking since others say otherwise. (No I was not arguing for solid lifters on a daily driver, I just meant you need one for the valve you're measuring )

 

[groundPork]

Whaaaat.

I just remember something about suffering fools.

Captain is the correct form of address for any vessel owner recognized by Congress. The "buddy" and some reference to "boat"s as if they were going to snow you with their vast knowledge set me off.

Credits you say at my age I can brag I've dropped out of more colleges than most have been on campus. It's a good thing I don't know squat and you need the sagacity of a high school drop out telling you what to do.

Cheers,
GTM

WooOOW! early AM roid rage... they teach you that in the military?! hehehe! So thats how GTM became a proven member, and have a good rep. Bulley everyone else with something useful to contribute away from people with problems so he can surround them with conjecture, and assumptions... ok. that's fine, I gotta try that some time, nxt time someone disagrees with me I'll just get all irate, and say "I am a Naval Captain, and have forgot more than most of you have learned" blah blah I'm a SPCA tech infector OOOoo AAaahhh.

Oh... on another note, I do apologize if I misunderstood you telling or implying for me not suggest that wd-40 were a suitable substitute for 10 w motor oil and the way I reacted to your post. I did not suggest they were the same, I suggested one or the other for the specific purpose of checking cam free rotation. You might have concisdered asking me to elaborate on the suuggestion instead of trying to swat me out so you could drown the poor guy with you parroted menousha.... But I'll leave you all alone... didn't mean to itrude.

 

[sweet97]

C'mon Pork chill a little. You guys offered ideas which were interesting and info is good. The SPCA spec infector did confuse me a bit though I know it was a typo, still funny, thanks as I don't smile lately with all of the car trouble I have been having. Peace all and I will report the diagnosis on the head as soon as I get it. mark

 

[GTM]

C'mon Pork chill a little. You guys offered ideas which were interesting and info is good. The SPCA spec infector did confuse me a bit though I know it was a typo, still funny, thanks as I don't smile lately with all of the car trouble I have been having. Peace all and I will report the diagnosis on the head as soon as I get it. mark

It wasn't a typo just a kid trying to demonstrate his manhood when found out on a limb cutting the wrong side. When logic fails try blowing smoke up our backside with more bad manners and personal attacks.
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If you need some "V" blocks I've got a nifty solution for making your own from roller blade bearings that will handle cranks, cams, and can even be used for balancing motorcycle wheels.

Cheers,
GTM

 

[groundPork]

It wasn't a typo just a kid trying to demonstrate his manhood when found out on a limb cutting the wrong side. When logic fails try blowing smoke up our backside with more bad manners and personal attacks.
............................

If you need some "V" blocks I've got a nifty solution for making your own from roller blade bearings that will handle cranks, cams, and can even be used for balancing motorcycle wheels.

Cheers,
GTM

No it wasn't a typo... And yeah I am a kid. NO hard feelins here, like I said I'll leave you guys alone. Take it easy.

 

[sweet97]

Please be cool Ground pork as I have no hard feelings towards anyone either. I found out my block is cracked so i am parting out my $25K. car, should bring about $5K. If I am lucky! Good luck and by the way what is the piston and rod in your sig from? Mark

 

[GTM]

Please be cool Ground pork as I have no hard feelings towards anyone either. I found out my block is cracked so i am parting out my $25K. car, should bring about $5K. If I am lucky! Good luck and by the way what is the piston and rod in your sig from? Mark

I'm not so thick skinned that crap like that doen't bother me. It makes me wonder if they show so little respect in this environment what kind of an employee are they. As a rep for DSMtuners I have a responsibility to this site to maintain some sense of decorum. It sure makes life difficult when you become the target of someone's problem with authority that in the real world would get them fired.
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I'm glad that the head checked out fine which must be of some relief that you had done your work crrectly.

This brings us to possible options with the significant crack in the cylinder. I see 4 possible options which include abandoning the project and selling the parts. The others include sleeving the cyliinder, welding the crack, or using sodium silicate.

Because we live in a disposable lifestyle many of the fixes of yesteryear have been forgotten. I spent a while working for O.A. (Bunny) Philips of Bugatti fame, needless to say you don't buy factory parts so you repair what you have. The type 35's mostly had a nasty habit of cracking the cylinder block from the spark plugs out to the valve seats. A cylinder block is a single sand casting of cylinders and what we call call the head and a seperate crankcase. Since there was no way to get welding equipment inside a 6" long cylinder up to the combustion chamber we used Sodium Silicate to seal the cracks. This was done over the course of 3 days and 2 applications of a sealed cooling system using a slightly diluted solution.

The other 2 options may be more reliable in this case because the crack appears to be fairly wide. I am familiar but never have had a cylinder welded nor a sleeve installed, of these 2 my gut feelings are the sleeve would be more reliable. The little reading I seem to remember is they can be as thinwalled as .040" and the process is boring out the cylr, chilling the sleeve sub zero and pressing into place. The actual sleeve was made from a Porsche liner because of it's properties but can't remember what engines were involved and engine displacement or type.

By far the sodium silicate requires the least skill and the argument can be made that if it's good enough for a multi million dollar car it could be a solution. If I had access to a good CNC mill I would have no qualms about doing the sleeve assuming there is enough wall thickness to support the boring or honing process.
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All of this is easy for me to say for I've not been involved in the project and suffered the trials and tribulations that go along with it. I'm just subborn enough to not let some piece get the best of me with the exception of cameras and watches. As with any project of this type there exists the possibility you will never recover your investment whether running or not. By far the better choice is a running engine whether on a stand or in the car will be more valuable. I suspect the sleeve cost will be enough to make your heart skip a beat and the machine work will be secondary to this cost.

That's my take on it, I can help with some homework if you are willing to entertain this as a viable option.

Cheers,
GTM

 

[steel_3d]

You're right, we live in a disposable economy Why bother when you can get a block almost for free? With machine work and parts (just bearings that I can think of) it should be easily doable for under a grand, maybe closer to 500. I see you have a Buschur Stage 3 block, which doesn't seem to be anything special. I would get a junk block, clean it and magnaflux it, to make sure you don't end up with another crack. Then you just need to bore/hone to your piston diameter, resurface the deck if you want, align hone the mains if you want, throw it together with new bearings (oversize if the crank's been cut) and enjoy. It's gonna take time for sure, but I don't know if it's enough to give up 20 grand over.

I understand how things can look hopeless at times, but I'm not one to give up. Just found out this weekend that over a grand worth of parts were stolen out of my garage. Evo 8 wheels/tires and two transmissions. Who the hell steals transmissions??? Now I need to find a 2g awd trans, not the easiest task. But #### if I'm gonna give up now