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TD06 20g with a TD06H turbine, stuffed into a 14b turbine housing

Posted by COBFAB, Mar 23, 2016

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  1. COBFAB

    COBFAB Probationary Member

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    Hello all,

    I am in the process of rebuilding an old school FP 20g(52.6X68 compressor wheel) with a TD06H turbine in a machined 14b turbine housing. Does anyone have a clue on what flow rates would be seen? And has anyone dyno'd a similar setup? Why would I run the 14b housing? Because it's a direct bolt-on housing that has enough material to machine off for the TD06h turbine. OR, has anyone dyno'd an older FP 20g?

    How big of a difference is it to run a less flowing turbine housing when using the TD06H turbine?

    Original FP 20g:
    52.6 X 68 compressor
    58.8 X 67.2 turbine
    8CM^2 turbine housing
    - Not sure what the turbine A/R is

    My new setup:
    52.6 X 68 compressor
    58.8 X 67.2 turbine
    6cm^2 turbine housing
    - Un-ported turbine inlet(2") with machined turbine outlet(68mm or 2.67") yields an A/R of roughly .75(typically faster spool up, more low end torque)
    - Ported turbine inlet(2.5") with machined outlet(68mm or 2.67") yields an A/R of roughly .94(typically slower spool up, but more flow to maximize turbine output, more high end power)

    If it matters,

    Engine mods:
    6 bolt
    6 bolt rods, 2g pistons
    built head
    DKS 272 cams
    Stock intake and ported turbo manifold
    Every single hot part is port matched
    2.5" intercooler and intake piping
     
  2. secretagentstv

    secretagentstv Proven Member

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    That exhaust housing is very small it will probably surge pretty good. You won't max out the turbo on that housing. You might as well get a small 16g if your worried about spool. But it will probably hit like a freight train.
     
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  3. COBFAB

    COBFAB Probationary Member

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    Twin Cities, Minnesota
    I have already ran an e316g. But you think it'll surge huh? Due to the smaller volume the turbine housing will allow?

    The TD06H turbine paired to the 20g compressor wheel shouldn't cross over the compressor surge or choke line...... But yes, I am trying to achieve the most low end and midrange power with a decent top end, if that makes sense. Hence why I chose the 14b housing to induce pressure and get characteristics like that of an e316g, but higher tg and hp numbers. I can call it a day and buy a 68HTA, but I'd like to see what this combo can make. I've seen 450+ tq and hp on a TD06 20g with a TD05H turbine in 7cm^2 housing, so I am convinced that there is room to play with.

    It'll go on the dyno by summer anyway, just seeing who else might have ran a similar setup.
     
  4. 94awdcoupe

    94awdcoupe Proven Member

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    you going to get a lot of people telling you the 6cm housing will choke the turbo. I have built and used several 18g/20g turbos with 6h turbine wheel in a machined 6cm housing. it makes for a flat awesome turbo. it works fantastic. spools fast without surge. makes more power than 5h wheel in 7cm housing. I have also machined the older 7cm housings for 6h wheel. for a 2.0 I prefer the 6cm, on a stroker the 7cm works better.
     

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  5. COBFAB

    COBFAB Probationary Member

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    I just read up on the threads when you've suggested this combo in the past to the people on here, thanks a lot! It makes me more confident in achieving a really fun turbo! I have many MHI cores to build from, enough to build two right now.

    Did you really love it? Was it like a harder hitting e316g? Also, did you port the inlet and wastegate holes or left them restrictive? Any dyno time?

    It makes sense for surge to happen IF the turbine wheel is smaller than the compressor wheel. And to my understanding, a smaller turbine housing always yields early torque. The only flow loss I see in using the 6CM^2 housing would be the little restriction it creates, which also creates back pressure, and then creating torque. In a machined 6CM^2 housing that accepts the 06H turbine, it should be the best of both worlds using a small housing + big turbine.

    It's always fun to put these kind of combinations through test and trial. Can't wait. If it produces high numbers, we'll have a whole lifetime of disappointment ahead of us.
     
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  6. 94awdcoupe

    94awdcoupe Proven Member

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    on the exhaust housing and turbo I port the lip off. I do open to 7cm size. the exhaust housing needs nice porting at the collector. make it nice and round leading into the turbo. I use internal gates. hate 02 mounted gates. difficult to get good seal. good waste gate porting is needed. its more about rounding edges off than making whole bigger. I was able to achieve nice flat 19psi with internal gate. I also use evo 3 02 housing. as the outlet of 6h size mates well to the inlet of 02.
    IMG_2618_zps48qmspc8.jpg
    IMG_2621_zpsrkygaew6.jpg
     

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  7. brane_97talon

    brane_97talon Proven Member

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    This is just what I was asking about, a 20g turbo that maximizes compressor AND turbine effeciently... in a 6cm housing.

    Also, the number of compressor blades and size (staggered vs same) will impact spool times and power output. There are dual 5, 6 and 7 blade versions, as well as GTX style 10 and 11 blade..all in 52.5/68mm flavors....But sounds like you did your homework, Ill be following...
     

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  8. OGDSM1989

    OGDSM1989 Proven Member

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    I may have a spare 16g in a 6cm housing ...... I would like to do a GTX billet 11 blade 20g. What am I looking at to complete the process besides the machining of the cold side housing .. and about how much is machined from the cold side ...... I know that TEP makes a 19c or Super 20g in the 6cm Starion housing, but I am guessing that doing the build this way is cheaper then buying there turbo .....

    Billet 11 blade 20g and machine work on a cold side housing ?
     

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  9. GST with PSI

    GST with PSI DSM Wiseman

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    I'd like to see a single example of someone making 450+ tq/hp on a TD05H turbine in 7cm^2 housing coupled with ANY compressor.

    94awdcoupe has a lot of experience with these big turbines in tiny little housings, and we've had these debates before. I would just like to see hard data yielding good results from one of these combos that actually back up the claims. I have a hard time believing a TD06H turbine is enough to free up the restriction in a 6cm turbine housing. I have an even harder time seeing how a 6H turbine in a 6cm housing would net you any top end performance at all.
     

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  10. 94awdcoupe

    94awdcoupe Proven Member

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    does john sheppard count? 10.70 at 130mph. that has to be 450whp dynojet. 20g/clipped 5h/7cm
    nobody pushes 20g turbos. hell who even runs them??
     

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  11. GST with PSI

    GST with PSI DSM Wiseman

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    Lol...

    Ok Jerry, you got me! Save John Jesus Shepherd, who else is making that kind of power on a TD05H? Nobody with a street car, that's who.

    I'm not going to get into another pissing contest with you here. I'm just trying to give the OP a reality check based on real world information. A bastard 20G will net you great power and spool at a fraction of the cost and ass pain a 6H stuffed in a 6cm housing would cost you. I've got logs, time slips, and a build sheet that back that claim up, so that's about as real world as it gets.
     

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  12. AllanL

    AllanL Proven Member

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    these cracks are not issues or potential ones?
     
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  13. brane_97talon

    brane_97talon Proven Member

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    Yikes, wasnt tryna start an argument...
    But I too have a hard time believing that the 6cm will perform up top (6k RPM+)

    So what better way than to test this theory myself. Sure, it may not flow as well as a 7cm TD06H, but the powerband will be interesting and *theoretically* flow more than any 7cm TD05H with a nice spool. And I wont run a compressor larger than a 20g.

    I already have the TD06H turbine. I have 1 MHI 7cm Evo3 housing, and 1 eBay 7cm housing. Neither of which will fit my turbine. So Im on the search for 14B and Big16g turbine housings to experiment.
     

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  14. TSi-Rocket

    TSi-Rocket Proven Member

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    I don't think the 06h wheel in a 6cm housing would have great higher rpm numbers but I would figure it to be better than a 14b. The midrange power should be excellent, would get a rise in hp/tq and then it would kinda drop off. Prob be a good daily driven setup and you wouldn't have to add cams or rev to the moon to have a quick car. Adding 272//272 cams to the 06h in a 6cm housing I would think would be counter productive. IMHO I feel you need at least a 7cm to really be productive with 272/272 as they cause lag and then the 6cm will choke flow when the cams start to shine. Really depends on what you want outta your setup. If you have the time/$$ try it and see if you like it.

    When I actually start playing with my hta68 I would like to try it with a machined 6cm & 7cm(have a big 16housing) to test it for myself. I could end up going back to stock cams who knows. Its my car and I will build it into what suits me.

    GST
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-dtIDNDjKKI
     

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  15. YUPOK

    YUPOK Proven Member

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    I have spoken with some guys up in Canada who swear by a hogged out 14B over a 16G housing. They say even after the porting the 14 has more meat left than the 16. One trick is to fill the housing with a light oil like even olive oil, then dump it out and measure until you get the desired volume.

    If interested I do have a good EVO3 housing for sale. Also I would be more than happy to open up your compressor cover to fit the wheel of choice. I have actually found the Chinese compressor housing is smoother inside than MHI. It's a lighter, cheaper pot aluminum that's very gummy but is visually a lot smoother in the snail tunnel.
     
    YUPOK

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  16. brane_97talon

    brane_97talon Proven Member

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    I figure this. 6cm2, 7cm2 and 8cm2 all measure AREA and not volume or it would be cm^3 and the eBay housing would be HUGE.

    I think its measuring the actual area exposed to the turbine wheel. When you cut a 6cm2 housing for a turbine wheel that is 10-12mm larger, then arent you cutting 5-6mm up into this area, effectively enlarging it? This should remove restrictions in the system, so backpressure should go down. And EGTs, as well should be lowered.

    Im going to run it. All Im asking is for it to flow 40+lbs of air from 3000 to 7500rpm at 20psi. This is what I believe that OP is asking too...

    And before someone says, oh an EvoIII16G could do that, not on pump gas it wouldnt. High IATS, High EGTs=KNOCK.
     

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  17. redrkt

    redrkt Proven Member

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    Just some info from my friends car with similar mods as the O.P., although his is a lightweight FWD and on E85.
    He is running the TurboLab cast 20g with the 3"inlet downfiring cover with a TD05H turbine in a ported 14b 6cm housing at ~25 psi. Internal wastegate. It runs mid 11's pretty easily on 2.0 60fts at 125-129mph. Running the numbers it is making right around 400hp to the ground.

    I would think a 6H turbine would help to make even more power at the expense of some spoolup compared to the 5H. I highly doubt it would surge seeing as surge isn't an issue with the 5H and it spools quicker. I believe the 6cm-6H-20g should be able to give you the performance you are looking for.
     

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  18. brane_97talon

    brane_97talon Proven Member

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    TD05H VS *clipped* TD06H....Flow capacity=No contest. Look at that Inducer tho...:sneaky:
     

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  19. COBFAB

    COBFAB Probationary Member

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    Here's an example of 20G + TDO5H turbine, posted on here in a different thread, and he is local. Dyno graph in that thread.

    "mrTachyon, Oct 20, 2012 #88
    Hey guys, new to this site.

    Just put down 448/489 HP and TQ with a TD05h 20G this afternoon at MAP in the Twin Cities.

    1g TSi AWD - Self built 2.4, E70 with 26 PSI falling to 20 by 6500.

    Good little turbos... hits like a ton of bricks picking up around 300 WTQ in 600 RPM!"

    @ GST with PSI,

    You suggest a bastard 20g, why? At fraction of the cost? Or power it has made? Pain?

    I'm a machinist, and a certified TIG welder if it matters. I don't spend a penny on machining or welding obviously. It cost me $250 to build this turbo. It's not every hard to build a turbo.

    Again, turbo specs are:
    FP 20g compressor wheel
    FP compressor housing
    MHI center housing
    Turbo lab rebuild kit
    MAP 11 blade TD06H turbine, clipped
    Ported and machined 14B turbine housing
    Balanced assembly locally at Midwest Turbo Connection

    Now, I only mentioned that my focus was to make more punch from low to mid range, not top end.

    I am going through test and trial, you all will see.

    Any doubters of the 6cm^2 housing, I understand that by volume, it isn't an efficient choice to use for pushing more air flow to make lots of power up top. I am focusing on "pressure", inducing torque, hence the turbine housing A/R. I love the punch.

    Those who haven't tried such a combo shouldn't give out a false stories. It turns into a useless thread. I will prove what it can or can not do.
     
  20. COBFAB

    COBFAB Probationary Member

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    But in all seriousness, it's cool to get all the feedback from you guys so thanks.

    The 14B housing is in fact restrictive, the housing diameter is small, and the tunnel is small. There's no way around it really, even if fully ported.

    There's no bolt-on housings that'll hold the TD06H turbine except the small 16g and 14b housings and as we know, hard to find not cracked.

    I have many cores and DSM MHI turbo parts to play with, so I've decided this route. Will keep you guys posted.
     
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  21. GST with PSI

    GST with PSI DSM Wiseman

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    The sarcasm I intended to convey with my statement was clearly lost in translation. There are obviously a hand full of people making 400+ HP on a TD05H turbine. @gofer is another one who comes to mind, as he's on the old TD05H version of the 68HTA if I remember correctly.

    In reference to your post, my point was, that if someone already knows they're shooting for 400+ WHP, I'd consider a variety of other turbines that operate more efficiently at that power level rather than the TD05H. Most builds aren't going to squeeze that kind of power out of the TD05H, that's all I was trying to say.




    Noted. My statement still holds true for the other 99% of people who aren't machinists and proficient TIG welders, though. I completely agree, building a turbo isn't terribly hard. But, machine work and welding that are free for you would typically make building a turbo like this for the other 99% of us abundantly more difficult and expensive than building, say, a bastard 20G.




    Agreed, but that works both ways. Until someone actually tests this out and provides some hard data, it's hard to say what this can or can't do. The 6H is a capable turbine, but how it performs in a 6cm housing has yet to be seen. I think @donniekak has done some crazy stuff with his FP red that relates. Maybe he can chime in.

    I'm looking forward to seeing how this turns out. Be sure to keep us updated on your progress. If you can document the actual build of the turbo itself, that'd be cool to see too.
     

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  22. brane_97talon

    brane_97talon Proven Member

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    I am interested in results as well.

    We all know the 6cm is more restrictive than a 7cm and a that a TD05H is more restrictive than a TD06H...lets find out what we dont know!

    Worse case scenario, the 6cm drops airflow before 6k rpm like stock, and you have to use an old school Big16G 7cm housing....:idontknow:
     

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  23. fuzzystsi

    fuzzystsi Probationary Member

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    Following :)
     
  24. Tyler20G

    Tyler20G Probationary Member

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    I know its not a DSM but i recently did a td05H 20G in a 8cm T3 housing and made 538hp and 446tq on a dyno jet with my evo 9. Its a 7 blade KTS 20g compressor, TD05H 9 blade turbine, 8cm T3 turbine housing, and td06 3 inch anti surge compressor cover. as you can see on the dyno plot, it holds 500hp clear to 8500 rpm, not bad for building it myself!

    My setup:
    Curt Brown 2.0
    Curt Brown head
    S2 Cams
    Ported intake manifold
    65mm TB
    ID2000's
    Walbro 450
    Sheepey Built Forward facing hot part kit.
    e85
    29.2 PSI
    Pretty fun little turbo. I planned on going to the 06sl2 wheel but this is too much fun on the street. :)
    Not sure what the 05h record is but i hope I'm close!

    14612523_10211318866954489_2854356359089292702_o.jpg
     
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  25. 8716valver

    8716valver Supporting Member

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    Thats insane man. Why stick with the 05h if dropping all that coin on a built motor?
     

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