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Tap broken off in exhaust manifold head stud hole...

Posted by 4gfun, Sep 19, 2012

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  1. ramsack

    ramsack Proven Member

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    Cool stories.
     
  2. SBstar

    SBstar Proven Member

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    Just trying to help the guy out. Obviously you're a little self righteous about it, so tell me what is it going to hurt to try? Weld won't stick and he's out a couple minutes of trying. Or it works and he can clean out the hole and be on his way. Beats hours and hours of attempting to shatter it. I've personally seen it work on extractors, which are usually made out of the same metal as a tap generally hi-speed steel. So far you haven't helped out at all, so tell me how you'd get it out so maybe he has a solution.
     

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  3. ramsack

    ramsack Proven Member

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    So far I have helped out. I suggested a bit made of carbide or diamond to grind it out, or to freeze it and shatter it.
     
  4. 99gst_racer

    99gst_racer Moderator

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    WTF You suggested against the easiest and probably most effective method, only then to tell the OP to go find a diamond encrusted drill bit and liquid nitrogen. That was 'help'?
     

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  5. ramsack

    ramsack Proven Member

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    WTF You suggested he use an expensive tool he doesn't even have, with skills he doesn't even have, on a hole too deep that even a professional would likely say "use another method." Nice extrapolation. It's not hard to find a carbide or diamond-tipped bit, nor is it hard to find liquid CO2 or nitrogen.
     
  6. 99gst_racer

    99gst_racer Moderator

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    One does not have to buy the machine to receive it's service. There's a TIG welder and a TIG weldor within 10 minutes of everyone. 20 minutes ago, you though taps couldn't be welded on, and now you know exactly what a professional welder would say? LOL Give me a break.

    That tap is broke off nearly flush. That is definitely weldable. I know because I've done it.
     

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  7. ramsack

    ramsack Proven Member

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    So he's going to tow his car to a welder? I bet that's free. I bet the welder charges nothing, too. There are no specific welding services. Maybe people like you know people who weld, but you can't just look up a welder in the yellow pages. I still wouldn't bother or trust welding it. Give me a break.
     
  8. ENZ5573

    ENZ5573 Proven Member

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    i am a machinest by trade..it will break pretty esay on aluminum,because the

    metal is soft,so it will bind up,so when you back out it will bind up and lock up..

    and if you forces it,it will snap..frist of with soft metals,the less flutes the tap

    has, the better it will cut,because there is more relief.so a 2 fulte tap would be

    good.so the hearder the metal the more flutes,like a 3 or 4 flute tap.

    now dose not matter what you will be tapping, always go in 1/4 of a turn in,

    then 1/4 of a turn out,thats the way tapping works,when you turn in it cuts,so

    when you back it out it will break the metal chips,so you will not get any binding.

    always use some good lube..
     

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  9. 99gst_racer

    99gst_racer Moderator

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    You sure are stubborn.

    #1. You don't need to tow a cylinder head. Remember, it unbolts from the vehicle with an hours worth of work.

    #2. I just looked up Welding in the Yellow pages. You can continue to not trust welding, but I think I'd rather not trust your opinion.
     

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  10. ramsack

    ramsack Proven Member

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    Pulling the head would cost more than towing... Keep trying.
     
  11. SBstar

    SBstar Proven Member

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    At this point unless he is willing to risk his motor, he's going to have to pull the head anyways. Metal shavings in the engine is not a good thing, especially in the oil.
     

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  12. 99gst_racer

    99gst_racer Moderator

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    I definitely get that. If he were tapping a new hole and wasn't using a lubricant and wasn't breaking the chip, I could forsee an issue. But he was only chassing a tapped hole. I don't see how you could ever break a tap while chasing a tapped hole in aluminum. I suppose anything is possible though.

    Pulling the head costs a head gasket at most. Felpro composite HG's are $30.
    I agree with Shane too; I'd be doing this repair with the cylinder head removed to make it easier and to ensure that debris doesn't enter the oil/crankcase.
     

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  13. turbo23

    turbo23 Proven Member

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    I just fixed a head with a broken tap and lets say it involved drilling the enitre hole much bigger. Tapping it to a 1/2 bolt, running a 1/2 bolt into the head, cutting it flush, and then drilling a new hole in the new bolt and tapping it... All after about 2 hours of messing with the head getting the old tap out. BUT mine job was way worse than your looks like.
     

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  14. ENZ5573

    ENZ5573 Proven Member

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    yes, i will agree with you on that,but maybe he wen't in too deep or used the wrong pitch tap, etc..

    anyway,dose anyone know how manny flute tap he was using..its hard to tell from pics..
     

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  15. 4gfun

    4gfun Supporting VIP

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    Tap used was 1.25 x 8m (maybe I have that backwards) so it should have been right. Went to Harbor freight and got their diamond tipped bits (I know...but cheap enough to monkey around with) and then went to lowes and got some carbide bits....both for the dremel.

    Also got some dewalt cobalt bits for my drill that the guy at Lowes swore would do the job just as well as carbide bits.

    I am drilling with the cobalt bit and it is doing waaaaaaaaay better than the dremel stuff did.

    Really hate to see you guys arguing. Appreciate the help.
     

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  16. ENZ5573

    ENZ5573 Proven Member

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    yes 8m x 1.25, no arguing here..all good.

    how many flutes was the tap,did you try a tap exstrator?
     

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  17. serviceguy

    serviceguy Proven Member

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    I had good result removing a broken stud just using a reverse flute drill bit. I know this is a broken tap but nevertheless...
     

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  18. 4gfun

    4gfun Supporting VIP

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    Good deal...tap is 4 flute. Couldn't find an extractor locally. I take back what I said about the dewalt drill bit....can't really see it doing anything.

    Between the HF diamond dremel bits and the carbide dremel bit, I am probably only able to drill about 1/32 an inch an hour!

    Not really making much progress.
     

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  19. 99gst_racer

    99gst_racer Moderator

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    HF has diamond (PCD) bits? I don't see them on their website.

    I wonder how well a high quality HSS bit would drill into that broken tap? I've never tried drilling HSS with HSS...
     

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  20. 4gfun

    4gfun Supporting VIP

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    They do....will take some pics (camera resolution stinks off my blackberry as you can see)....waiting for a better cam to come in.

    There is an old school tool shop close to my house....going to check to see if they carry a tap extractor.

    they don't carry it...rrrr

    While I am at it....where do I source a bigger stud...yes I can still dream about getting that far! :)
     

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  21. 99gst_racer

    99gst_racer Moderator

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    What's the 5-digit lot number off the package?
     

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  22. 4gfun

    4gfun Supporting VIP

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    Will get it from the garbage in a minute....I am kind of an animal as you can see. LOL

    40547...

    20 Piece 1/8" Shank Diamond Point Set

    So I pulled the valve cover and can see the tap in there. I can see from what is left of the tap that there is actually an inch of tap sitting there.

    There is not much that I figure I can do from the back side of the tap.

    If I were to pull the front bumper etc, wouldn't I be hoping to shatter right through the tap at best? Don't want to pull the head but I think I am running out of options.

    Progress!

    I hit the tap with a cold chisel on the head side. I can now use my dollar general needlenose pliers to rock the tap back and forth...so some progress.

    I am worried that I drilled around it too much to ever get even a larger stud in there but I gotta start somewhere.

    These dollar store needlenose are amazing. I was even able to use them as snap ring pliers on my turbo....hoping for the best all.

    Was able to get it out...the tap came out in 3 pieces! I didn't lose the stud itself...was able to grab it before it went down the hole

    On to trying to find the right stud size...thoughts?

    I am going to drop the oil pan in this case and clean up....used brake clean down the passage. Will also do a few 500 mile oil changes.

    I am afraid that I drilled too much around the tap the get the needle nose around it and wrecked the head. If I did, so be it I guess....will get another head.

    Where do I go from here guys?
     
    Last edited: Sep 20, 2012

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  23. SBstar

    SBstar Proven Member

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    Now you drill out the hole and tap it for a larger stud. You'll have to drill the hole out on the manifold too. I'd pull the head drilling and tapping a larger hole is going to create alot of shavings.

    Also wasn't trying to argue, just supply a solutikon that apparently I had to defend for some odd reason.
     

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  24. 4gfun

    4gfun Supporting VIP

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    Thanks for your thoughts bud..

    I can see that the previous owner had a similar issue at some point and put an M10 stud in there. I'd bet I will need an even bigger bolt due to all of the drilling but will start around that size. The manifold and gasket will still accept an M10 stud but I think that is around the end of it.

    As far as pulling the head....won't the shavings go right in to the oil pan which I could drop to save a bit of time? Sorry, don't know the motors design.
     

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  25. dsmornothing

    dsmornothing Probationary Member

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    I have welded to a tap many times. So that is the first thing I would try. Once you weld to it get the area around the tap hot then try to turn it out. Really isnt that hard to do. Still confused as to how you broke it off in there.... I tapped all of mine with a tap on my drill, maybe I should re consider that next time.....
     

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