Talon TSi AWD or Eclipse GSX or VW GTI VR6

[albguy]

Hello guys and girls,

I'm almost 17 years old, and I have a budget of $12000 CDN, which is about $9500 US, to spend on a car. I am having a very hard time deciding what to get. I have always been a VW diehard fan and my room is filled with GTI posters, but when I started looking at DSM's I fell in love with them too. When It comes to 0-60, and 1/4 mile times I know that the talons and eclipses will kill a GTI, but when it comes to luxury and propably handling (not sure) the Eclipses and almost any other Japanese car can't beat the Europeans. Also I am not sure how reliable DSM's are, will they have problems after ~90K miles, cause VW have almost NO engine problems up to ~150K miles. Also I am looking to get it almost 100% stock, so I could do all the mods myself. If i get the Talong i'll propably have about $1000 CDN available for performance upgrades only (NO BODY UPGRADES WHATSOEVER). But if I get the 2000 GTI 1.8t I can get 200HP with less than $500 using the CHIP, and ill have $500 to get an exhaust system, and maybe a CAI. So what do you guys think I should get 1995-1999 Talon/Eclipse Turbo or 1995-1999 GTI VR6, or 2000 GTI 1.8T ?

 

[albguy]

The thing is that my dad is Eastern European, and doesnt know jack shit about cars. If my car breaks in the first month hell think it was because of the aftermarket parts ill put on it. This will mean that he will buy me a European car with his money and not let me TOUCH anythig on the engine copartment .

 

[bullet82]

The way I see it, with the money you have you can buy a used car(either VW or DSM) and then possibly have a small amount of money to modify it. By the time you pay taxes, insurance etc you'll probably have nothing left but for arguments sake lets say you end up with $1000 left over. I'll tell you right now that the DSM will destroy the VW with $1000 in mods. Unless of course your Dad is planning on giving you $25k to mod a VW?

 

[halik008]

which eastern european country???

halik

 

[D_Eclipse9916]

Woah, you guys got a little over your head here. First you compare totally diff cars. First we have the Eclipe or Talon which at 2-15k depending on years, mileage and all that shit which can be put to 400 horsepower before rebuilding but then youve only spent about 5000bux depending on how stupid you are when you buy stuff. (We all regret a purchase in our lives) oh...so 400 isnt enough? you rebuild the engine and tranny and suddenly you can easily get 650hp ur claiming, that would require at most 7-10k. So in all youve spent AT MOST 25-30k and thats for a machine that rapes almost anything you throw at it..NOW we go to the R32, which first isnt even in your price range at 30k, which is also a limited production vehicle so probably got dealer premiums. anyway, there you go for 30k and have a car that is more expensive than a fully built eclipse. Yet to get the VW to that eclipse you would have to spend 15k just for a kit. so now ur at LEAST 45k into debt ....So...youve got the eclipse at 25-30k at 650hp with mroe room to move cuz you jsut built the shit out of it and then youve got the R32 at 45k stuck at the highest it could ever go without rebuilding. And then you dont get shit for respect cuz the car still looks like ur mother's car... I just ruined my point but seriously, the cars are totally different. Competition the gsx and tsi awd is the WRX. Anything in the same price range as the eclipse has fwd and once youve got 300-400 even much lower youve realized what a mistake it was as you burn your tires and have them skip and destroy your drivetrain. VW is for your parents, that should tell you your first thing. I want my gsx cuz its got an engine with a HUGE following, awd, power to boot and easily expandable, and a very goood looking car. Now take your 12000 dollars or whatever you have and go buy your mom's car cuz from what youve said ur being a little dreamy and im afraid u may go get yourself killed cuz all your looking at is sites for the business. Not to insult any businesses but they always want their product to look better, thats why their is a multi-billion dollar industry in commercial ads, bulletin boards, websites and all those marketing schemes.

 

[LaserDad91]

Body, go to www.eiptuning.com but I do not trust any car made in the US or Canada,which is the reason why I am worried. As I said, I will not buy a car after this for at least 4 years.

VW's used to be made in the U.S., and now I do believe they are made in MEXICO!! Better study up on that one, cause I am not totally sure, but intitially, they left US and went to Mexico!! I will take American made over Mexico, any day!!

I think this is the main reason, the interior stuff you mentioned breaks. I just got tired of window cranks breaking, door handles busting, window tracks breaking (when I roll the window down in the drive thru, and it falls to the bottom of the door, in sub 30 deg weather!!)

And frankly, as for the engines, I have seen plenty torn a part at my mechinics shop, and he specializes in VW!!

Since your have stated your not really into speed, go buy a nice turbo deisel!!

 

[DSMJim]

You think VW's are reliable? ahhahahhah. They are the biggest POS in the world. I just had to put a tranny in my wifes 1.8T beetle. We have FULL VW warranty and the tranny was making noise. Only she drives it, I have no interest in a yellow beetle. But they said she was abusing the car and warranty will not cover it. After fighting with VW for a full month and my wife crying at the dealership twice and me threatening to burning the place down to the ground they finally paid for 80% of it. Whoptie do, assholes.

I will NEVER EVER EVER buy a 99.5+ VW ever again, they are the biggest POS ever. We have also been though 4 stock BOV, 3 MAF, 6 windows switches, the sunroof track broke, the window track broke, the fuel door hinge broke, the trunk latch got stuck. They simply lost all quality with the MK4 line up.

I had a MK3 VR6 and speak from direct experience that you can not make a VW as fast as a Talon for the money. I have a 2G "crankwalker" which has not walked or had anyproblems. See my sig for how fast it goes. I have spent way less money on my talon than I ever did with my GTI and it's way faster.

If you EVER do any serious mods to your GTI you MUST MUST MUST put a Quaife or Peolquin in the trans. That alone is like $3000 (been there done that, look back at old Performance Auto & Sound magazines for my install featured on my purple GTI VR6) and that is the only thing that saves the trans. VW uses stupid ass rivits to hold the ring gear on the diff for god sakes.

Dude honestly, I have been there done that with VW and with DSM cars. I will NEVER go back to a VW ever. My 95 GTI VR6 was great car but not fast enough. I had a 90 Cab which wasn't CIS and it was a big POS, I had a 86 GTI with 90 Corrado G60 swap converted to turbo in it which was cool, but had problems too. I have had a 90 TSI AWD was never a problem ran great, and now 98 TSI AWD and also great. Both my talons have been more reliable than all the VW's I have ever owned.

MY budy works for VW and the service rate on the MK4 cars is very high. Look at their quality rating by AJAC recently? They are rated lower than ALL american cars. A cavalier is rated more reliable than a GTI is dude, so get your facts straight. VW was only rated better than Range Rover and they SUCKKKKKK. OUt of 44 manufactureres VW is 43 and Audi in the High 30's. CHevrolet was like 18 so there ya go.

MY BLOOD IS BOILING RIGHT NOW.. PLEASE DON'T GET ME STARTED

 

[EvolvingGST]

You know what dude? You should get a VR6.... I think you should because you are wasting our times... You talk about these rediculous ammounts of HP and all this crap.... At the end of the day we still run lower ETs... HELL we have a website with our times... dsmtimes.org, go get your little VW and we will still be spanking you every day of the week, and then you will be happy and then you can say we were right... Numbers do not lie, we apparently have the lower ETs so have fun arguing that... HP ratings are crap. Stage one at 320 crank hp is crap. I can build a 11 second 1G for 2000 dollars of mods... I dare you to say that with any car that you can build. and most DSMs last till 500 hp on a stock block, some have even dared to venture into the 600s. So your arguements were poorly researched and even more poorly argued.

Are DSMs the gods of cars, no. Every car has their advantages and disadvantages of it. On a meaner note you my friend sound like the ultimate ricer, all you look at is these imaginary numbers... how many cars do you think in their life times run those types of numbers... Its like the legendary supras that run 1000 whp... do they exist yes they do, how many people own them? maybe a handful.

In all honesty you sounded like you joined this board to argue with us. I believe that actions speak louder than words... Go get your VW and we will beat you every day of the week. Enough said... I am sure there are many reps at this board that will take your VW on. Happy driving.

 

[CanadianTalon]

a 400-horsepower Stage I, a 550-horsepower Stage II, and a full commando 600-horsepower Stage III. We recently tested the Stage II and were delightfully shocked

Are you god damn handicapped? They tested the "550 HP" version of the R32 which put out 450 AWHP, but unless you just take some made up generic correction factor you have no way of knowing how much actual flywheel horsepower that motor is making. They didn't even test the stage 3, and so far they havn't produced a stage 3.

To just top that all off, there is no mention that the R32 will make 650 horsepower on the stock motor, nor is there any mention that you will still have a warranty with your made up 650 HP stock block volkswagen that is going to be uber reliable, since you know so much about cars. Like I said, quit living in your imaginary 16 year old pipe dream. The day anyone has a 650 HP factory warrantied R32 will be the day I go get a sex change and change my name to daisy. Go back to www.vwsport.com, they'll love you there.

 

[leakyfaucet]

We all want both, if you find a car that has reliability and performance, let us all know.

You can have both, you just have to pay a lot for it.

 

[albguy]

which eastern european country???

Albania.

Guys, guys, guys. I am not here to argue, I LOVE the dsm's, but I love the VW's too, so the reason I came here was to get some opinions. I did not join this forum to start arguments. Also I do not think I am a ricer, because if I was the first thing I would put on my car would be a Boeing 747 wing, and a $50 fartcan. The only exterior mod that I will put on my car (Either Talon or GTI) will be nice looking 15" rims (my friend says the higher the diameter the worst drag times are. Dont know if it is true). Also, I am having trouble finding 1g engines with less than 60k miles on them in the net. Do you guys know any online store which have 1g engines directly from Japan.

 

[halik008]

Albania.

eeeeeh that's southern bulkans not eastern europe...


Yes you can order the engine directly from Japan, someody will post a linky or do a search...

halik

 

[KC_GST]

They have a complete swap @ totaljdm.com it includes eveything and has 38,000-55,000 miles on them. I believe they carry a warranty also.

 

[boostaddictgsx]

Ok i know this is a long time ago, but whoever said that they wouldn't buy a camaro because american cars are unreliable is wrong, the LS1 is a great platform, i know because i have one sitting next to my eclipse in the garage. If you have 10k to spend, and you want good performance and reliability, just get a friggin LS1 Z28 with under 70k miles and be done with it. I'm sorry, turbochargers are nice, but throttle response ain't bad either

 

[SpeedFreak03]

Ok guys, say I got a 1996 Talon Tsi with about 60000 miels on it. What is the first sign I should look for to see if it has crankwalking. Aso do you think its better if I get a 2g with lots of miles and ten just swap in a 1g engine on it, or will it cost mea lot. I am so scared of the crankwalk thing, its not even funny. Also the reason why the gti is pretty high in my list is that both my parent drive VW's, my dad a 1997 passat VR6 and my mom a 1993 Passat VR6, and my mom's car has 245000 km which is about 160k miles, and it runs good.

I think tha I'm gonna go wit the DSM's , but I hope I won't be disapointed. As long as the crankwalk thig doesn't happen within a month its fine, cause if it does my dad will immediately get me a European car (Either GTI or A4 or 328is).

Ok I havent fully read this whole second page (I read up until the quoted post), so forgive me if this has been said. Why are you "so scared of the crankwalk thing"? I mean damn, spend $5K or w/e out of your $9K budget for the car, then if it walks, at the MOST, with labor (most likely) it could be $2K, maybe $2500. But if you have $4K or more after the purchase of the car, what's it to you?

Anyway, it seems like (no offense of course, this is just my opinion), you are the type that would rather slap on a $5K turbo kit (or staged upgrade, etc) then custom build up the car yourself. I'd say about 85-90% of the people on this forum fit into the second catagory (custom selecting all the parts), unlike most Honda (and VW too) who would rather slap on a preconfigured staged upgrade. So that's why most people here think it's funny to spend all that money, when we can reach a lot of power for much cheaper.

One more thing, be honest now, but when VW was designing their engines, did they say "Well we could spend $1000 per engine (pulling these numbers out of my ass), and have it be a little over adequate for stock power, or we could spend $2000 and have something made to support 500HP". What would you do if you owned a car company? Shit, I'd choose the first engine and if they want to make major power, then it's their problem to build it up. I'm just saying there is no way that engine, in stock form, will RELIABLY run 650HP or w/e that turbo kit claims, especially for daily driving. It's just not gonna happen on the stock block. But, if you want to make that kind of power, you should have the money to bulletproof the block anyway.

Just my $0.02 again, but don't grow any gray hairs over the crankwalk thing, it honestly is over-rated. And remember, if it does walk, the most it will probably cost you is $2K with labor (about $1000-1200 if you do it yourself), so not the end of the world.

 

[DSMeclipse4G63]

The thing is that I want Reliability and Performance, not just performance, if I wanted to buy a fast car I could easily geta Camaro Formula1 or Camaro Z28 which will do 0-60 in 5 flat and 1/4 in 13.5 sec, but the thig is that I HATE AMERICAN CARS, because they have THE WORST RELIABILITY IN THE WORLD.

then dont buy a dsm, as they are american made. I didnt read the first page before I got sick of your shitty attitude. DSM's are reliable if you maintain them I have 110k miles and it mods VERY well and drives well too. quite your whining and buy your eurpean peice and get smoked on the dragstrip and autocross by a dsm....
Andrew

 

[paranoidTSi]

Albania.

Guys, guys, guys. I am not here to argue, I LOVE the dsm's, but I love the VW's too, so the reason I came here was to get some opinions. I did not join this forum to start arguments. Also I do not think I am a ricer, because if I was the first thing I would put on my car would be a Boeing 747 wing, and a $50 fartcan. The only exterior mod that I will put on my car (Either Talon or GTI) will be nice looking 15" rims (my friend says the higher the diameter the worst drag times are. Dont know if it is true). Also, I am having trouble finding 1g engines with less than 60k miles on them in the net. Do you guys know any online store which have 1g engines directly from Japan.

Please also realize you are on a DSM forum, obviously bias will be towards DSMs in general, if you want a true opinion go to a general car forum.

 

[saw wave analog]

lets see here... a 2gb eclipse looks much better than a box of a vw, this is a fact imo because the amount of girls that will oogle your car will be much higher is a sports car as opposed to a middle aged persons sedan a dsm is as reliable as any other car if you MAINTAIN IT PROPERLY and start with a car that is in good condition.. these cars are all about cheap speed, imo if you fill your car with home depot rigged crap and rtv gaskets, do 5k launches off every other light you are not allowed to complain that you broke it and finally, the most important part, regardless of whatever vw propaganda you have been fed, dollar for dollar a dsm will rip the holy shit out of a vw in virtually any performance catergory and that is just the end of the story. stop bringing up these mystical turbo kits for cars you arent even able to halfway afford WITHOUT the kit and start looking within the realm of possibility. the dsm is going to be a lot more fun to drive than the vw. end of story

 

[anduril]

Man, you sure opened a can of worms with this thread, didn't you? You can't really post this type of thread at a forum dedicated to a specific genre of cars and get quite the answer you're looking for. It's going to be biased towards a certain car (or cars) which isn't always a bad thing. Hell, I'd probably lean towards the Talon TSi/Eclipse GSX if I had the choice right now. Why? Well I'll get to that in a minute.

First off, you really need to learn alot more about the cars you're talking about. The F-bodies are not unreliable cars like you mistakenly state. Their engines are incredibly robust and can handle a massive amount of horsepower and torque in their stock states. GM just adds alot of crappy parts onto them that'll give you some problems off and on. Actually, like every car maker except maybe Honda and Toyota. That said, moving on.

HPA does make a Stage 3 kit that generates 600hp+ to the wheels but it doesn't run on stock engine parts. They do a massive amount of upgrading to the R32 engine and various sytems to make it take that load. The engine in the R32 is phenominal as is the car in general. I'd take it over an STi or Evo any day of the week. It makes a great rally car or drag racer, especially if you want to spend $60,000 on total cost with the kits. C&D (I think) did a test of alot of cars in their upcoming issue and the HPA R32 beat everything in the lineup outside of a super Corvette. If people want, I'll post a link to the thread results as well. The HPA R32 would NOT be covered under any VW warranty though. There was very little of it left stock except maybe the interior.

So lets get down to the point of this thread, VW GTI VR6 vs. Talon Tsi (or like). So which would I choose for you? Neither. You're 17, either of those cars are way more than enough horsepower and torque to get you into trouble. Thats ignoring the fact of how expensive insurance would be for a 17 yr old with a turbocharged car. How much of your money are you planning to set aside for insurance, btw?

I drive a 1995 Passat VR6 as my daily driver and I cannot ignore the fact that it owns me. I've had the car for four months and I've already had to replace the water pump, coil pack, spark plugs, light bulbs (of course) and various fuses. Except to replace those parts on any VW, it seems to be unwritten law. The VR6 engine is reliable as hell, you will not hear of many problems relating to it in terms of reliability. Its the rest of the parts that VW ####ed up on. There's always tons of little germlins in VW's, most of them aren't expensive but if you cannot replace the parts yourself they will be. Dealerships will absolutely rape you with charges on any VW. Thats the price of the game. I have a car that really is a luxury sedan, for $5000 with 95,000 miles. The engine produces 170hp and even more torque, stock, and with a simple chip (less than a $150, where were you getting $500 from?) it can hit almost 200hp. There isn't much else I can do to the car for cheap outside of an exhaust. An intake gives almost no benefit. Yup, thats right, the stock airbox (once you take out the resonator and snow filter) provide more than enough air for the VR6. See, the nice thing about the VR6 is its massive torque production for a small engine. You do too much to the car and it ruins that. If you want to read more about VW's in general check out VWVortex. Its the forum for VW's, none other even comes close.

So what are the good things about the Golf's? They're great little cars. Very good handling, expecially in the MK1 or MK2 chasis. Those were arguably the best Golf GTI's ever made. Great handling, great weight balance, torquey engine, and quite reliable. The only car I'd rank better in their age range for handling and fun is the Corrado G60's. They outrank Porsche, Ferraris and Lambo's in alot of people's books in terms of some of the best cars ever made. The newer Golf's, well, they have nice interiors. Even the GM of VW said they gave us a shit product in the MKIV's. The MKV's might finally change that but...we'll see. we won't get those till 2005-2006. If you DO get a Golf GTI get the 1.8T. Still a reliable engine, not quite as much power but alot of potential and much more mods out there. First thing you should do is rip up the air box, get the chip (but realize that a stock GTI 1.8 should run premium and a chip requires atleast 91 octane, 93 is better) and replace the exhaust. That'll get you 200hp. Even the fastest MKIV that I know of isn't pushing more than 350hp at the wheels and has a horrible time getting grip. Even with traction control, the chasis just can't keep the wheels on. That said, the Golf's are a blast to drive.

Now, to the DSM's. Great little cars. I bought a 94 Talon ESi for my girlfriend about three months back (car accidents rock when it's not your fault for the insurance payoff). Her car had alot of problems as well we had to take car of from the beginning. The timing belt had to be changed which was cake, I won't even try it on my Passat. Fancy taking the transmission out? Oh, btw, we don't have belts. We have chains, and the guides themselves are what normally break. Have fun with that. Anyways, we also had to replace some valvue rings, various belts, and a few other things. It hasn't been a cheap car but...I love driving it. Great weight balance, enough power for her to get in trouble, and good handling.

I've driven the TSi's and I'd love to buy one. Massive amount of power for such a light car (this was a 93 I drove) and the AWD is nice even in the worst of weather. It wouldn't make as nice a rally car (it's what Im into, not drag) compared to the MKII VW's but it's def. got it's purpose. I can see it being a maintaince nightmare in its own right but the engines are much easier (and funner (is that a word ?)) to work on and parts are def. much cheaper to come by. Unless the MKV's are a wondercar, I can easily see my next car being a 97 or 98 TSi or GSX.

Frankly, don't get either car. Both are too much for you at this point. You'll need to do alot hands on to either car and I can see both stretching out of your wallet. They're all performance cars and must be treated that way. If you want a reliable, decent perform look at a Honda Civic Si, Prelude, or an Integra. They'll get you from Point A to Point B for years to come and while they won't race with a TSi or a GTI, they'll do it with much better gas mileage and leave your pocket book much heavier. Just because you're 17 and think your unkillable doesn't mean you are. Live a little, learn about your cars, and then buy something fast. You'll thank yourself later.

I hope this post doesn't come off as elitist, or arrogant. I just want to save you from doing something you'll regret at some point. I looked at things the same way you did, had the big dreams you probably have. Then life hits you - hard.

 

[EvolvingGST]

You have left me speechless.... *claps* :laugh: :laugh:

So there we have it from a VW owner and he said it the way it was... Good fight, Good night.

 

[anduril]

You have left me speechless.... *claps* :laugh: :laugh:

So there we have it from a VW owner and he said it the way it was... Good fight, Good night.

Thanks for the props EvolvingGST. I figured I might as well just say it straight. There's no reason to give crap advice, especially if he does go with the VW. We're very elitist hehe

Btw, I thought of one other thing to add. If you get the GTI VR6 it requires premium fuel as well. The manual says you can just use 87 but you'll get shitty performance and worse gas mileage. The engine will actually ping with that octane and the coilpack will retard its settings. 89 is the minimum with 91 giving alot better performance/mileage.

 

[DSMeclipse4G63]

damn I wish I would have waited for a fast car...my first was a modded stang gt. Took me a grand total of 28 days to almost kill my self. Get a reliable car then worry about getting a fast car after you have some experience and ALOT more maturity under your belt trust m,e on this.
Andrew

 

[Generation1JeY]

Lol my 92 GSX is my very first car and i'm modding it like crazy for it being my frist car. Lol i had plans for this car a year before i even found one i wanted. Did everything myself in terms of research and setting everything up. I havent had any problems driving it to its lmits compared to my parents cars that i drive a lot also, which are a e-350 4x4 15 passanger van, and a 2003 ford explorer.

Its kinda weird u always hear stories about people who have problems with turbo vehicles. I have heard atleast 10 about people who get turbo cars and just crash the shit out of them, or just have had bad experience and almost crashed the shit out of them, and are too afraid to drive them heavily after it happened.

 

[butters]

Readin some of these post seems like you stird up a hornets nest!!!


I have a 92 3000 gt VR4 puttin down around 500 awhp.

I just bought my 96 Talon TSI AWD with 52k on it and a warrenty till 70k for $7,000
I love it and will very soon be selling my GT for cash to mod this car.

I put about $250 worth of mods in it and it SCREAMS!!!


DSM'S RULE!!!!


SEALAB 2021 SUX!!!

 

[n0va91TSI]

OK first off stop talking about R32s. Because your not getting one! And if we want to talk about NEW cars compair the R32 to the EVO MR . If you want to compair a 2nd gen dsm to a same year VR6 its no comparison. DSMs are faster and cheaper and better looking. If you worry about crank walk get a 1st gen. Very cheap, very fast, and cheap to mod or fix.

But I can see you really want that FWD GTi, so I'll let you know how it looks from my rear view mirror.


PS the 1.8t gti is faster than the VR6. Look it up! Speed is not all about HP. I have driven a new vr6 and it didnt feel ALMOST as fast as my 91 TSI.