Talon TSi AWD or Eclipse GSX or VW GTI VR6

[albguy]

Hello guys and girls,

I'm almost 17 years old, and I have a budget of $12000 CDN, which is about $9500 US, to spend on a car. I am having a very hard time deciding what to get. I have always been a VW diehard fan and my room is filled with GTI posters, but when I started looking at DSM's I fell in love with them too. When It comes to 0-60, and 1/4 mile times I know that the talons and eclipses will kill a GTI, but when it comes to luxury and propably handling (not sure) the Eclipses and almost any other Japanese car can't beat the Europeans. Also I am not sure how reliable DSM's are, will they have problems after ~90K miles, cause VW have almost NO engine problems up to ~150K miles. Also I am looking to get it almost 100% stock, so I could do all the mods myself. If i get the Talong i'll propably have about $1000 CDN available for performance upgrades only (NO BODY UPGRADES WHATSOEVER). But if I get the 2000 GTI 1.8t I can get 200HP with less than $500 using the CHIP, and ill have $500 to get an exhaust system, and maybe a CAI. So what do you guys think I should get 1995-1999 Talon/Eclipse Turbo or 1995-1999 GTI VR6, or 2000 GTI 1.8T ?

 

[calcifer]

Are you saying a 1g doesn't have a better exterior than a box (sorry, I mean gti)? I'm afraid I'll have to disagree with you there. I actually do like the looks of the gti but not nearly as much as a 1g or 2g dsm.

 

[SpeedFreak03]

Guys, trust me in the long run the GTI VR6 will outrun a mildly modded talon. EIP tuning and HPA motorsport have turbo kits that can take the VR6 to over 700hp, with 100% stock internals but i know that with 3000 you can easily get 350HP out of a DSM, thats true. Also, when ti comes to volkswagen reliability it is always small electrical problems (power winfos, doors, etc), I have never heard of a VW whose engine was teared appart because of a walking crank. But on the other side, it will cost mea lot to soop up a GTI.

Well after reading your posts, and especially this one, it seems that you are dead set on the GTI. I'll give it to you straight about DSMs - they go FAST for CHEAP. That's really the selling point for DSMs. For example, a $50 (or even $5 Home Depot) boost controller will give you a substantial gain in HP/TQ. Dump $50 in the GTI and that won't get you much, maybe an eBay intake (good for what, 5HP at the most?). Take that GTI with the turbo kit, and compare it to the mildly modded DSM, and lets, just for simplicity's sake, say they put down the same power. Compare how much the GTI owner spent (don't even include the price of the car) to how much the DSM owner spent.

Now about reliabilty. No, DSMs aren't the most reliable vehicles in the world - most DSM owners will agree with this , they do have their share of problems. But, you can't compare a turbo sports car to a honda in terms of reliabilty - power means sacrificing reliabilty (or spend money out the ass ). About the crankwalk thing, past 100K miles (not sure how many KMs that is) you don't have to worry about it 90% of the time. And so what if it does walk? Drop $1200 on a JDM 6-bolt 4G63T (1G turbo DSM motor) and swap that in, easier then most honda swaps. Certainly not the end of the world.

But wait, before you say DSMs are unreliable, slap that "700HP turbo kit" on the GTI (or even a custom turbo setup with a 14B), give it a few months, and I'll bet shit starts breaking, even though its a VW. But if you want power and reliabilty, you gotta spend money. I mean, take a Porsche, Lamborghini, Ferrari, etc. They are fast as hell, and certainly reliable for the most part (even tho the water pump in my uncle's 2000 boxster S died in 2001 ), but they are expensive. And that's just the way it works my friend.

It's really your decision though, of course you're gonna get biased opinions at a DSM forum. Now, I hope mine doesn't sound biased, because I just made the decision to start looking at DSMs over Hondas, I'm just trying to tell you what factors played in my decision, and I ended up "going with" (well, looking at) 1G turbo DSMs (AWD or FWD, whichever I can find pretty much). I was torn between a 4th gen Accord (90-93) sedan 5 speed, or a 1G turbo DSM - completely different cars. But I figured, hell, if I am gonna have to put money into the car, it should be the one I really want. And I think you know what car you REALLY want, and to me it sounds like the GTI.

Well, good luck with your decision, I'm sure you'd be happy with either car though.

 

[CanadianTalon]

The thing is that I want Reliability and Performance, not just performance, if I wanted to buy a fast car I could easily geta Camaro Formula1 or Camaro Z28 which will do 0-60 in 5 flat and 1/4 in 13.5 sec, but the thig is that I HATE AMERICAN CARS, because they have THE WORST RELIABILITY IN THE WORLD.

If you think that american cars have the worst reliability, you're in for a big shock when you own a DSM or a GTI for a while. :thumbdown

On top of that, you really don't deserve anything fast if you sincerely believe that a VR6 can take 700 HP on the stock internals reliably for any length of time. One pass on straight C16 on a dynojet where there is not much load on the motor, and it might survive without kicking a rod out. Put it on the street, and laugh it up as you put a giant oil slick on the road. A DSM cannot be touched mod for mod by a VR6 GTI, period. Even if you do bolt a turbo kit onto it and make 250 horsepower you're still hampered by sucky FWD and a weight disadvantage to the DSM.

But then again, judging from what you're saying on here you're 100% set on a VW ("Guys, trust me in the long run the GTI VR6 will outrun a mildly modded talon.") so why are you even here? You sure do know so much about how bad DSM's get crankwalk, and how a VR6 will outrun a DSM for a 16 year old who's never owned a fast car before, so why do you need our junky opinions.

 

[o0_pyro_0o]

did anyone happen to notice he was looking a the 1.8t motor for the GTi? It's already turbo charched and it's the same motor found in the Audi A4 and TT. The thing is the turbo on the 1.8 is painfully small and with a chip you'll only get around 200hp. My boss has an A4 and it is pretty quik but only after he got a $4000 turbo kit and a new exuaght system. Even with all that he is still slower than my 2g gsx with a catback and intake pipe. IMO they are a capable motor but only if you have plenty of cash. Also my experience with helping on his I've noticed that German cars really SUCK to work on.

 

[nutshot]

The argument for or against DSM's cannot be summed up in reliability or looks. Both are subjective, neither is definitive.

The argument comparing DSM's to GTI's cannot be based on reliability for the same reason.

So, the real argument lies here:

Which is better, FWD or AWD?

 

[river]

We all want both, if you find a car that has reliability and performance, let us all know. You don't get both, you get one or the other.

Reliability and performance are indirectly proportional, the more of one you get, the less of the other. Sounds like you need to pick which you want more.

-Steve

i owned a 1994 Toyota Supra for about a year and put some dollars into it and before i knew it i had a 500 HP car that was as reliable as any...and daily driven! so there is your reliability and performance, if you want both, buy a supra and invest some time and money in it and you will have a bulletproof engine, drivetrain, and a body and frame that are built like tanks. of course that is all out of my personal experience and only my opinions. although all supra owners are very pleased with them. so was i till i wrapped it around a tree doing some drifting out of my personal ability. :thumbdown

 

[albguy]

On top of that, you really don't deserve anything fast if you sincerely believe that a VR6 can take 700 HP on the stock internals reliably for any length of time. One pass on straight C16 on a dynojet where there is not much load on the motor, and it might survive without kicking a rod out. Put it on the street, and laugh it up as you put a giant oil slick on the road. A DSM cannot be touched mod for mod by a VR6 GTI, period. Even if you do bolt a turbo kit onto it and make 250 horsepower you're still hampered by sucky FWD and a weight disadvantage to the DSM.

Body, go to www.eiptuning.com , and read what it says, you can get over 650HP our of an R32's 100% stock engine. Also THIS TURBO KIT WILL NOT VOID YOUR WARRANTY, VW HAS TESTED THAT IT DOES NOT WEAR THE ENGINE. Now if you dont call that a strong engine I dont kow what you can call a strong engine. I say it again I love DSM's too, and I think that they are beautiful and powerful, but I do not trust any car made in the US or Canada,which is the reason why I am worried. As I said, I will not buy a car after this for at least 4 years.

 

[albguy]

Also HPA motorsport www.hpamotorsports.com/ has turbo kit that can take the VR6 to 600HP with 100% stock internals (pistons, rods, cams), and they too will make sure your warranty is not voided. Their Stage 2 R32 (they go up to stage 4) kick our 550WHP, and does 0-60 in 3.2 sec, and 1/4 miles in 11 sec flat. Just imagine what the stage 4 would do . But I agree that the Eclipses look better than the MK3 GTI's (1995-1999).

 

[albguy]

The argument for or against DSM's cannot be summed up in reliability or looks. Both are subjective, neither is definitive.

Man trust me, you do not want to talk about GTI's handling, at Nurburgring in Germany the GTI had the same track time as a Porsche Bocter S, which costs twice its price, and it had slalom speed almost as fast as the STI and EVO. Also GTI's came with Traction control since 1995. Also I really do not think that it is fair to compare a gTI to a Ecipse, because the Eclipse is a Sports Coupe, but the GTI is a hatchback. You should compare the Golf R32 with the Civic SiR, and Focus SVT, and we all know which one wins . If you guys had not told me about the Crankwalking thing , I would have immediately bought the Talon. But now I have to think again, also how much would a 1g engine in VERY good condition (less than 50k miles) go for in the US, or in CAnada, and how much would the labour be for the swap.

 

[dsmayhem]

Also I really do not think that it is fair to compare a gTI to a Ecipse, because the Eclipse is a Sports Coupe, but the GTI is a hatchback. You should compare the Golf R32 with the Civic SiR, and Focus SVT, and we all know which one wins .

You came here comparing the two. If we would compare the $30k+ R32 to anything it would be an EVO or an STI.

 

[GSXTCY]

Just because 92.5+ DSM's can get Crankwalk doesnt mean that yours will. If you like the car and it is in your price range then get it. The responses here will be almost bias towards getting a dsm since this is a dsm site. Crankwalk is not the end of the world it is only the start of a new beginning to bigger and better power. You can find 6bolt blocks relatively cheap if you look around. Anyhow good luck on your vehicle selection.
~Nick

 

[q92awd]

Give me a break! This is annoying. At the bottom of their webpage, it says 409 whp and 3.2 0-60 time. You're mixing and matching your stats. Let's not even get into price.... If you want the car that bad, get it. Don't try to convince me that it's better though - you're like a bible beater that comes to my door to "save" me. :thumbdown

 

[CanadianTalon]

Body, go to www.eiptuning.com , and read what it says, you can get over 650HP our of an R32's 100% stock engine. Also THIS TURBO KIT WILL NOT VOID YOUR WARRANTY, VW HAS TESTED THAT IT DOES NOT WEAR THE ENGINE. Now if you dont call that a strong engine I dont kow what you can call a strong engine. I say it again I love DSM's too, and I think that they are beautiful and powerful, but I do not trust any car made in the US or Canada,which is the reason why I am worried. As I said, I will not buy a car after this for at least 4 years.

I'd like to start off by saying you're dumber than a sack of god damn rocks if you think that VW will warranty ANYTHING that is powertrain related on a 650 HP R32, because that's just plain wrong.

Second, oh mighty 16 year old, please enlighten me as to where on either the EIP tuning or HPA motorsports sites where it says 650 HP on stock internals without voiding your warranty. I don't know what kind of a pipe dream you're living in, but I wasted 15 minutes of my time reading that page and found jack shit about a 650 HP turbo R32, all I say was a 400 WHP STD corrected (you know what correction factors are, right? ) with an absolutely pathetic powerband, and no mention of 650 HP with a warranty. On the HPA site I saw a 452 AWHP dyno, which is pretty impressive, but pathetic for over 34 thousand dollars on top of the 30 thousand dollar price tag of the R32.

So far you've done nothing but say how great and strong the VR6 is, say that you can make 650 HP on the stock internals but have no proof to back it up, not even a claim made on either website, and on top of that you're a 16 year old kid, who has never even owned or worked on a fast car? Give me a break.

 

[albguy]

We can't wait for VW's new 241-horse, all-wheel-drive R32 to hit the American marketplace. HPA Motorsports couldn't wait, either. It's already developed, tested, and certified three positively wicked versions of its R32 turbocharged tuner packages: a 400-horsepower Stage I, a 550-horsepower Stage II, and a full commando 600-horsepower Stage III. We recently tested the Stage II and were delightfully shocked--but your conscience and pocketbook should dictate what's right for you.

How "shocking" can a V-6 Volkswagen really be? How about 0-to-60 mph in 3.2 seconds? The quarter mile in 11.49? A 600-foot slalom in a Mitsu Evo-like 71 mph? During official German TUV government testing, the HPA R32 topped out at 202.6 mph. You read that correctly.

More shockers: It runs on premium pump gas and idles more smoothly than the stock R32. If the weather goes sour, the HPA R32's 4Motion AWD will keep you safe while you're hustling the curves.

Although the stock R32's 241 horsepower is strong in this category (the lauded Subaru WRX makes 227), HPA feels more than doubling that number makes it just about right. Twin KKK K04 ball-bearing turbochargers, modified to HPA's Stage II specs, pack 19.5 psi of boost through twin air-to-air intercoolers, a larger mass-airflow sensor, a custom cast-aluminum intake manifold, past a special head spacer, and into the 3.2-liter V-6. Oversized fuel injectors, a Bosch high-volume fuel pump, fuel-pressure regulator, and recalibrated ECU keep in check detonation that can come with nearly 20 pounds of boost. Custom exhaust manifolds and turbo downpipe, twin race-spec catalytic converters, and a single three-inch T-304 stainless-steel exhaust system make for a free-flowing setup that remains mellow at idle.

The R32's upgraded suspension and 4Motion AWD do a commendable job in the handling and traction departments, but HPA ups the game with its KW suspension kit, which includes INOX Variant I coil-overs up front with 16-way adjustable Version 3 shocks for the rear. Optional BBS RC 18x8.0-inch wheels wearing Dunlop SP Super Sport 225/40ZR18 tires provide added flash and fantastic grip, but will set you back $3200 above the Stage II package. On the highway, the suspension proved smooth and predictable, yet the combination delivered impressive g-forces that earned it entry into the exclusive 70-mph club during slalom testing.

The stock R32 comes with so much stuff that HPA didn't mess with the rest of the package, aside from an upgrade to Hagus side mirrors and a slightly larger rear wing for added stability over 200 mph. Inside, special door panels with embroidery are the only mod.

At $25,000 above the cost of an R32, the HPA Stage II upgrade isn't inexpensive. Yet, it provides astonishing performance that's useable under a variety of weather conditions. Spool up the turbos, dump the HPA heavy-duty clutch, and you're in for an accelerative slap to the face. The car doesn't just launch quickly; it blasts off with all four tires howling (click on the link to the right to watch the associated video). The numbers will show that the HPA R32 outaccelerates and outgrips Porsches, Ferraris, Corvettes, and Vipers--while offering a back seat and room for five.

VW will bring about 5000 of its Euro-only R32 Golfs to North America close to the time you read this. The R32 goes beyond the GTI, with more horsepower, more handling, a six-speed manual gearbox, and standard all-wheel drive.

The R32 is centered around a 3.2-liter V-6 engine shared, interestingly enough, with the company's new full-size flagship, the Phaeton. It delivers 241 horsepower and 236 pound-feet of torque--40 more horsepower than the current GTI VR6. Power is shuttled through VW's refined 4Motion Haldex AWD system.

OZ Aristo 18x7.5-inch 15-spoke alloys wrapped in grippy 225/40ZR18 rubber add flash and dash. Revised four-wheel independent suspension teams with larger anti-roll bars, sportier shocks, and 20mm-lower springs are at each corner for improved handling. Larger 13.1/ 10.1-inch rotors are cribbed from the Passat W8.

Externally, the R32 is set apart by a racier front fascia and bumper, unique side sills, a tasteful rear spoiler, and different rear bumper incorporating a relief for twin chrome-tipped exhaust outlets. Inside, you'll find R32-logoed sport bucket seats, a redesigned leather steering wheel, and a unique gauge cluster, shift knob, floormats, and trim. Brushed aluminum brightens the pedals, the driver's left footrest, handbrake, console, and door panels.

A new fifth-generation Golf is on the horizon, so the R32 represents the last, and best-performing, model built on the current A4 platform. Priced at around $30K, it offers solid performance, good value, German cachet, all-wheel drive, and a non-attention-drawing combination of attitude and class. Get 'em before they're not.



Also go to their website and tell me if it says that pistons or rods will need to be replaced.

 

[dsmayhem]

We could all end this thread if we said ...

"Hey you should get the Golf "

 

[albguy]

No, there is a very good chance that I will not get the Golf, but I am pissed off at CAnadian Talon , who underrates my ability towards cars. Also if you guys did not mention the crankwalk ything, there would be a very high chance that i would have had a DSM sitting in my driveway.

 

[thekellbeast]

Seriously. It sounds like this kid has already made up his mind. Based on one "650 hp VW."

 

[halik008]

yeah dude...the Gold is the way to go for everybody....obviously it is far superior car and that's why there are some many of them being tunned.....

halik

 

[paranoidTSi]

if you are seriously worried about crankwalk, don't get a DSM then. Although I seriously think that is one retarded excuse into not getting a DSM seeing as maybe 10% get it.

I'd much be driving a sporty DSM than a girly VW vehicle anyday.

 

[GSXTCY]

We could all end this thread if we said ...

"Hey you should get the Golf "

And I have the ability to end this thread too! HAHAHAHHA :laugh:

 

[GSXTCY]

Hey you may not want to go to bed tonight because there is a 10% chance you may not wake in the morning. Crankwalk is a scary thing, beware.

 

[albguy]

Ok guys, say I got a 1996 Talon Tsi with about 60000 miels on it. What is the first sign I should look for to see if it has crankwalking. Aso do you think its better if I get a 2g with lots of miles and ten just swap in a 1g engine on it, or will it cost mea lot. I am so scared of the crankwalk thing, its not even funny. Also the reason why the gti is pretty high in my list is that both my parent drive VW's, my dad a 1997 passat VR6 and my mom a 1993 Passat VR6, and my mom's car has 245000 km which is about 160k miles, and it runs good.

I think tha I'm gonna go wit the DSM's , but I hope I won't be disapointed. As long as the crankwalk thig doesn't happen within a month its fine, cause if it does my dad will immediately get me a European car (Either GTI or A4 or 328is).

 

[dsmayhem]

If it happens then your dad is going to buy you another car? Why the hell not get a DSM then . You can't really loose.

 

[Generation1JeY]

If ur so worried about crankwalk then dont get a 7-bolt motor, just get a 1g theyre so much cheaper, only thing u have to worry about is high mileage and some broken plastic panels.

Coming here preaching about volkswagon isn't going to help u make up ur mind, since u know so much about ur european company and memorize production specs maybe thats ur path, atleast that way u'll know something about the car u own.

 

[bullet82]

At $25,000 above the cost of an R32, the HPA Stage II upgrade isn't inexpensive.

I thought you said that you have only $12 grand to spend on a car and mods together? Not only is this stage II mod expensive but we're talking about a $30,000 car here, which I believe far exceeds your financial means. This has become a discussion of which car is better when your original post is which would be better for you. Unless you've come into a hell of a lot of money that you haven't told us about there isn't much point in even thinking about all this Stage I, II, III crap. On another note, I speak from personal experience dude when I say that it is not exactly easy to own, maintain and mod a sports car while attending university. Unless you have a really good job you plan on working throughout the year I think you'll find it difficult enough just to keep your car...never mind spending thousands of dollars extra on modifying it. With that said, try and deal with the real issue here...what will be best for you in your situation with your finances.(Think ahead a few years beyond highschool)