Still trying to see whether the 420a motor is worth building?

[Airsign89]

Here is what I was talking about with TB's, and again this might not be applicable for you car:" Adding a larger throttle-body from an automatic transmission Neon (52mm vs. 49mm) or boring your stock throttle body out will help boost output on a DOHC Neon by about 5 hp or more across the whole RPM range. RC Engineering and Howell Automotive can bore your stock throttle body out to about 57mm. You can also purchase billet throttle bodies up to 60mm. Having a throttle body too big can hurt overall performance, so unless you seriously changed the air flow characteristics inside your engine, I wouldn't use anything bigger than 55mm throttle body.

Gary Howell wrote:

"49mm TB flows 252 cfm
52mm TB flows 283 cfm
55mm TB flows 317 cfm
60mm TB flows 377 cfm

At 8200 RPM a 122 cubic inch engine will need 290 cfm at 100% volumetric effiency, using the formula ((Max RPM/2)*Displacement)/1728. Rule of thumb is to go 10% over because a naturally aspirated engine can go above 100% volumetric efficiency because of cam overlap, header design, etc. Go above that and you kill low end because of reduced velocity, go below that you starve the engine for air at top end. 110% is volumetric efficiency is 319 cfm."

Based on this, 55 mm does seem to be the option for naturally aspirated (non-turbo) engines.

As for automatic Neon throttle bodies, you can find them easily at most junkyards for around $70 or less. When you perform this swap be sure to replace the new throttle body's sensors and cams with the ones from your stock unit, if you want to retain stock drivability. You also want to pay attention to placement of the throttle-body on the manifold. You might gain a little more if you push it closer toward the center of the intake manifold. Make sure you port-match the throttle body to your intake manifold for best performance.

In the past I have stated that this modification helps DOHC owners the most and should really be avoided by SOHC owners. I have recently learned that a 57 mm throttle body on a mostly stock SOHC Neon gained about 5hp overall. Again, you really need to port-match throttle body to the intake manifold for best performance. " quoted from allpar.

 

[bullettdsm]

A slight and noticeable upgrade would be to check that all maintenance is done, if so, an intake, exhaust, header, underdrive pulley and howell automotive afx ecu would wake the car up a bit.

Good advice^^^

As far as throttle bodies go and I am not sure this is applicable to the opposite facing eclipse motor, the 1g neon automatic throttle bodies are a few mm's bigger and with a tiny bit of boring can be a cheap and easy upgrade.

Bad advice^^

If you are not sure if something works, DO NOT GUESS!! Putting the disclaimer of "I'm not sure if this is applicable for your car" does not clear you of the responsibility of the advice that you are giving. I could say "put a 750 Holley on there. I'm not sure if this works for your car" but I did that for my 'Goat and it worked real well.

Because, as you say, the engine is "opposite" from our 420a's, then the throttle cable pulls in the opposite direction. So you can't just pull it off of a junker and slap it on. Therefore without modification, you cannot use this TB. The only thing that saved you from receiving negative rep for misinformation is the fact that the rest of your info was accurate and appropriate. Please do not guess. its real easy for someone to over look the "I'm not sure if this works for your car" and go on to be misinformed (as was happenning here).

But OP, there are bored TB's for our cars out there (as well as services to bore yours). I would say that until you start doing heavier internal modifications, I wouldn't go over 55mm.

MB

 

[necrotopsy]

At 8200 RPM a 122 cubic inch engine will need 290 cfm at 100% volumetric effiency, using the formula ((Max RPM/2)*Displacement)/1728.

420a redlines 7,300 RPM's (5 speeds) and 6,450 RPM's (auto)

just fyi.

for a 55mm TB you could look into the Jeep 4.0 TB swap. But it's not a direct swap, it does require modification.
I think there is a How-To on this website for it, and know there is one on 2gnt.
though i'm lazy, it's 6am and i havent slept, i'm going to bed now.

 

[Shake_Zulla]

420a redlines 7,300 RPM's (5 speeds) and 6,450 RPM's (auto)

just fyi.

for a 55mm TB you could look into the Jeep 4.0 TB swap. But it's not a direct swap, it does require modification.
I think there is a How-To on this website for it, and know there is one on 2gnt.
though i'm lazy, it's 6am and i havent slept, i'm going to bed now.

The bore on the Jeep swap is 60mm which I wouldn't suggest untill you turbo, a better option would be to do what Mark suggested (wiseman... duh) and send yours in to get it bored to 56mm. Also I saw you asked about the 2.4l swap and the 2gnt.com site has info there on it. You will have to search the threads a little but there are a few that are really good. I had them on my computer but it crashed, basically the major modifications are the oil pan and one of the engine mounting brackets.

EDIT Reading back I see Mark suggested 55mm, 56mm is the max you would want to go but if Marks suggesting 55 I would go 55.

 

[Airsign89]

420a redlines 7,300 RPM's (5 speeds) and 6,450 RPM's (auto)

just fyi.

for
.

Of course, but following the upgrade plan that I had outlined, intaked/header/exhaust/pulley AND AFX ecu, would allow the op to choose between a street ecu(7600rpm redline) or a race(8100). Since when your going the small displacement NA route, revs are your friend. • View topic - AFX 420a ecu And I never meant to misinform the op with the TB statement, I just cant find the pertinent link, my fault.

 

[MyProject2G]

Well it sounds like it is going to take quite some time and $$ to build the 420a right.. if i can find a 4g63 which seems like my only other option.. what kind of modification do i need to do to swap it. I heard it just needs engine mounts but i am getting mixed reviews i wish they coulda gave the ts and gs a non turbo 4g63 engine not a stupid crysler engine!!

 

[Slo2gen]

You have to cut out your fender wells and and weld in ones from a turbo car, then you have to change your wiringharness,ecu, fuel pump, radiator, pretty much everything from a turbo car. Its not really worth it unless you have a GST thats scrap from the rear to the drivers seat.

 

[Airsign89]

Myproject2g, try a few mods before you give up hope and see if they give you any satisfaction. Also used parts can be relatively cheap and if you do decide to sell the car and step up to a turbo version, you can just resell the parts you bought. Just a thought.

Bullettdsm: again sorry for the misinformation, I had read a thread on here http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/420a-bolt-tech/272404-boring-out-2g-420a-throttle-body.html post six in which another mod speaks of a company that treats both the neon and eclipse 420a tb as the same, i must have been confused. Oh and are those ITB's on your car? Very nice, I seem to remember about 10 years back when electromotive made an ITB setup with crank trigger for the 420a, in the neon guise. Some of the best sounds come from ITB's.
edit. its actually post 12

 

[bryanwheat]

You have to cut out your fender wells and and weld in ones from a turbo car, then you have to change your wiringharness,ecu, fuel pump, radiator, pretty much everything from a turbo car. Its not really worth it unless you have a GST thats scrap from the rear to the drivers seat.

You also have to cut out the lower frame rails and weld the turbo rails in.

 

[hazmat6135]

It's a 2.0L 4 cylinder, obviously it's not going to be too wicked without boost.

i just wanna point out that my old 94 n/a4g63 was beating stock turbo cars.ran 14.6 in the 1/4 and my reaction times were horrible. so not all 2.0's are created equal as far as this thread is concerned the best thing you could do to get power is either sell ## car and buy a turbo car or search junkyards and forums till you find a donor car for a full turbo4g swap. power doesnt come with cash. thats just how it is bud. sorry

 

[bullettdsm]

Bullettdsm: again sorry for the misinformation, I had read a thread on here http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/420a-bolt-tech/272404-boring-out-2g-420a-throttle-body.html post six in which another mod speaks of a company that treats both the neon and eclipse 420a tb as the same, i must have been confused. Oh and are those ITB's on your car? Very nice, I seem to remember about 10 years back when electromotive made an ITB setup with crank trigger for the 420a, in the neon guise.

No problem. As I said, I can see you do know what you are talking about (as opposed to just regurgitation). I can also see the confusion in the thread you linked. I'm sure Paul was talking about the service itself (because it would be the same activity/price in a TB sent from a Neon or a TB sent from a 420a Eclipse). You're doing fine with your posts. It was the "guessing/presuming" that turned into a continuation, that was the problem.

As for ITB's, yeah, I did some testing with 42mm ITB's vs 52mm ITB's. I appreciate the words of support. Interesting results (which I'm sure I posted somewhere on here), but I don't want to get off on a tangent for the OP.

MB

 

[Fotowntalon]

EDIT Reading back I see Mark suggested 55mm, 56mm is the max you would want to go but if Marks suggesting 55 I would go 55.

Master Shake, I am dissapointed in you, the 57mm is the largest you can go before you start to lose low end and is the what I would recommend, until you get some good modifications going before bumping up to the 60mm. Hey and speaking of which I will have a 57mm for sale soon

But back to the OP, you are the type of person who makes me hate helping people, seriously. Most guys on this sight do tons of research, learning and building and we end up with great cars. Then theirs others like you who complain there isnt enough information, without even once trying to search. Theres about a million of these threads, reason being no one wants to search, and while I dont mind helping, its gets really damn annoying when another clone thread pops up that just ends in the same thing

"What? Work? Money? Never mind I'm selling and trying something else, thanks for all you guys doing all my work and research for me" /end of rant

 

[Shake_Zulla]

end of rant

End of rant? Isn't every post you put up a rant?

To explain my post... I was talking about having the stock one rebored, on that I wouldn't go above 56mm cause your walls are getting pretty thin at that point but maybe people have had success with going bigger? Sorry if I was wrong... I get 1 pass a year right guys?

Plus for the Master Shake ref man

 

[Fotowntalon]

I figured every time I refer to you, I can go with a different reference... so next would be the mic rula. But from what I understand you can do a 55mm bore with a "shaft" bore I am thinking its called which will flow 57mm of air.

As for the rant, I really only rant on tuners for the most part. rather pleasant on 2gnt

 

[MyProject2G]

^

Most of the threads quite old and i was just trying to get some positive feedback. I dont have the money for a major project or a GST which seems to always go for $5k here where i live. Im just trying to see what people have done and if im wasting my time or not. Dont be a jerk and im not trying to be spoon fed. When everyone talks sh!t about the 420a motor on multiple forums it kinda makes you wonder

Also im looking at your car build and your really didnt get much of an increase in hp or tq after all the mods you did..

 

[91stocker]

^

Most of the threads quite old and i was just trying to get some positive feedback. I dont have the money for a major project or a GST which seems to always go for $5k here where i live. Im just trying to see what people have done and if im wasting my time or not. Dont be a jerk and im not trying to be spoon fed. When everyone talks sh!t about the 420a motor on multiple forums it kinda makes you wonder

Also im looking at your car build and your really didnt get much of an increase in hp or tq after all the mods you did..

Yes it is a huge waste of time and money. Just read this
Mitsubishi Eclipse RS - Report - Import Tuner Magazine

$1200 for 4hp. The only way to make any power is with a turbo. The cost to turbo your 420a will cost more then it would to buy a 1g gsx. Plus to make more power on your 420a then a gsx makes stock even you will have to build the bottom end. That will cost as much as a 2g gsx.

So essentially the cost to build and turbo your 420a to make more power then a stock gsx. You could have bought both a 1g AND a 2g gsx.

Just say no...

 

[MyProject2G]

Thank you that answers my question.. i was looking at the hahn racecraft turbo kit but it only does 10 secs at 136mph.. that is slow . I would like to just swap my car engine wise but it sure sounds like a pain. Im not just about drag racing and i would like to be able to turn. So im leaning towards the 4g63 engine swap and keeping it lighter than the gsx without the awd

im trying to make a poor mans GST .. i want to do it right of course. plus that hahn turbo kit costs $2000 !!

 

[Airsign89]

Thank you that answers my question.. i was looking at the hahn racecraft turbo kit but it only does 10 secs at 136mph.. that is slow . I would like to just swap my car engine wise but it sure sounds like a pain. Im not just about drag racing and i would like to be able to turn. So im leaning towards the 4g63 engine swap and keeping it lighter than the gsx without the awd

im trying to make a poor mans GST .. i want to do it right of course. plus that hahn turbo kit costs $2000 !!

I hope your joking in thinking that just by putting a HRC stage...whatever on your car you'll run tens. Thats a pipe dream. Me and a couple other neon freaks in the detroit, michigan area ran everything from srt built 2.4's( I mean srt pistons and rods in a 2.4) to hrc stage 3's, I think my best time EVER, at 10 psi with an UD pulley, muffler, cat delete, bored tb, engine mounts, pt valvetrain, phantom grip, etc was a 13.1 at 108mph. I'm not trying to be negative, I'm just saying its a long and tough road. Again, good luck.

 

[Shake_Zulla]

Getting under 10 sec in a 4-cylinder is going to be expensive no matter what platform. Hell getting to 10 seconds in ANY car is expensive. I think you better get to high 13's before you set your sites to 10's. After all your skill needs to match your car and no one learns to drag race in a 10 second car.

 

[bryanwheat]

Thank you that answers my question.. i was looking at the hahn racecraft turbo kit but it only does 10 secs at 136mph.. that is slow . I would like to just swap my car engine wise but it sure sounds like a pain. Im not just about drag racing and i would like to be able to turn. So im leaning towards the 4g63 engine swap and keeping it lighter than the gsx without the awd

im trying to make a poor mans GST .. i want to do it right of course. plus that hahn turbo kit costs $2000 !!

Only ten seconds huh. Have you been in anything remotely close to a 10 second car? Also get the 4g63 engine swap out of your mind. It will cost more than buying a running 4g63 car.

 

[starfish]

I know shit is expensive for this motor if you want to make big gains.If I were you I would drive the car as it is and slowly buy parts for a good rebuild.You can buy a cheap motor somewere and slowly fix it up without having any downtime.Once your motor is done, then slowly start buying the right turbo parts.A turbo is the only way your gonna reach low #s unless you are a rocket scientist!Under 11 seconds is really hard to reach without big bucks!Believe me,you will be happy with a 14 second car (on the street)once you drive one.

 

[MyProject2G]

^

i see what you mean and im just going to enjoy the car for what it is now. i will focus on a rebuild or swap down the road

 

[necrotopsy]

Getting under 10 sec in a 4-cylinder is going to be expensive no matter what platform. Hell getting to 10 seconds in ANY car is expensive. I think you better get to high 13's before you set your sites to 10's. After all your skill needs to match your car and no one learns to drag race in a 10 second car.

the first ever fast car i drove down a drag strip was an 11 second FWD car.
though it took me 10-15 runs before i started getting the hang of it.
the first run i ever did in it was a mid 15 @ 105 haha

 

[DailyDriver98]

I have a gs n/t. to be honest, I agree with a little of everything that is being said here. I do think that if you really want that high performance output that a gsx or gst offers, then you should save up and hold out for one. I wanted a gsx at first, but like MyProject2G, I don't have that kind of cash all at once to go out and get a gsx. I don't want a fancy turbo or to stroke the motor or anything fancy like that, I just want to slowly build up my car to its peak performance without doing anything too major. There is still a lot of stuff you can do to make yourself happy with the power you have when you get out on the road. when i'm done with my car, I want to be able to sit back, look at it, and be proud and happy about what I've made. My advice to you MyProject2G, do just that, customize, personalize, and build onto your car and make it YOUR car.

 

[DJ Raydiate]

I own a 97 GS with the 420a and love mine. I have done the slight mods made for the 420a (cold air intake,full exhaust, under-drive pulley ). If you do those then you would be happy. 2 quick pulls in 1st and 2nd ( I have a 5 speed ) and I am already at highway speed. Plus the greatest mod to me was simply buying the GS with the 420a. I only pay 33 bucks a month for car insurance .They wanted more for the GS-T/GSX.