SSAC FMIC performance?

[SBstar]

No knock at 400hp is pretty efficient in my book, I dont know about you.

I'd still like to know the setup, looking at his profile shows a 35r at a different hp level. But I personally guarantee he could make more hp, and maintain it longer (meaning continue driving the car at that level without cool downs) with a better core. Just my .02
The facts are these cores are not even close to as good as a quality core, that is the info we're trying to get across here. Can you get away with one on your vehicle? Sure you can, but you could do better if you saved your money and bought quality. Isn't the point of Tuners to educate and help the dsm community?

 

[LaN-]

Who really gives a shit about intake temps blah blah blah.

If your car is running an ebay intercooler and you reached the amount of power you want to make outta your DSM.........Your not knocking and not posing any real threat to your engine who cares.

The average DSM'er wants 300-400 WHP outta there DSM and for the average DSM'er an ebay core will work just fine.

"People buy what works within there budget."

Are you going to bi*** at honda for making the civic because it doesn't perform as well as a Ferrari? No because it works for what people need.

Like i said people buy what they need to reach there goals and in the DSM world a ebay IC will get them there.

I've been selling 1g FMIC kits for almost a year now and i haven't had 1 performance related issue (i've sold over 100). In fact i've seen people making some damn good power. I myself made 350 WHP without an issue.

Now i know that the cores that i get are a better quality, but they still are ebay cores.

All n All you cannot stereotype "Ebay intercoolers" considering there are 10002340923480 different companies selling intercoolers online.

Come to think of it ETS sells on ebay.........so does that mean they suck?



sorry if i went on a rant and you can't understand everything, but i think you'll be able to get the overall idea.

 

[LaN-]

So you want to make 400 horsepower. You could do it with an SSAC FMIC kit sure, but you could do it more easily, and more efficiently, with a good core. Why do people insist on going cheap with dsms instead of saving their money and buying quality? David Buschur is right when every year he says there aren't many dsmers who go "fast with class" anymore.

Average cost of a DSM now a days is like ooo 2-4k. Which means the average person buying a dsm is 16-25 years old.

Average income for a 16-25 year old person - 20-30k.......if that

You've also gotta think about it this way.

Lets say i will make more power outta a more expensive FMIC compared to my ebay kit. What is the power difference? 20 - 30 HP (IF THAT)?

So i've lost 20-30hp because i went with a cheaper core, but i saved an extra 600 dollars. Could i not make 100hp more with that money?

Don't quote me on the numbers, but its the concept.

No there are not a lot of people that drive dsm's with "class" anymore, but what do you expect to drive a dsm with "class" requires a lot more money then the average person has.

Buschur is bias to all this ebay stuff because it cuts into his business.

Think about it, all the real "class" right now is in the EVO's but thats because an evo costs 20-30K which means if you buy an EVO you can afford to do it the right way.

 

[99gst_racer]

No knock at 400hp is pretty efficient in my book, I dont know about you.

Right, but horsepower levels don't speak directly for intercooler efficiency. I could make 400 WHP with a huge turbo, race gas, and a stock sidemount, but that doesn't mean it's an efficient 400 WHP.

Isn't the point of Tuners to educate and help the dsm community?

Yup, that's exactly why we're here.



Anybody have AIT data for the SSAC core?

 

[wishihadatalon]

Average cost of a DSM now a days is like ooo 2-4k. Which means the average person buying a dsm is 16-25 years old.

Average income for a 16-25 year old person - 20-30k.......if that

You've also gotta think about it this way.

Lets say i will make more power outta a more expensive FMIC compared to my ebay kit. What is the power difference? 20 - 30 HP (IF THAT)?

So i've lost 20-30hp because i went with a cheaper core, but i saved an extra 600 dollars. Could i not make 100hp more with that money?

Don't quote me on the numbers, but its the concept.

No there are not a lot of people that drive dsm's with "class" anymore, but what do you expect to drive a dsm with "class" requires a lot more money then the average person has.

Buschur is bias to all this ebay stuff because it cuts into his business.

Think about it, all the real "class" right now is in the EVO's but thats because an evo costs 20-30K which means if you buy an EVO you can afford to do it the right way.

What is so biased? He posted AMS core temps, even though it performed closely to his core. If he was biased he would have left that off because that could potentially cut into his business when someone wants a quality core.

Just a little fyi. You do not need money to be classy. You just have to have a good attitude and present yourself as a civil and reasonable person (who might potentially snap should someone piss him off bad enough).

As far as intake temps, they are important. If I see a core rise 60 degrees in one gear pull, I would find it safe to assume that those temps would keep rising. That is bad if you are doing more than single gear pulls.

 

[dsmsucks]

Maybe I should sale my ebay intercooler for a core that cost $1000 plus shipping. I know Im running a 14b but the ebay intercooler isnt good enough.

 

[99gst_racer]

Who really gives a shit about intake temps blah blah blah.

That's a pretty ignorant statement, IMO. From a performance standpoint (which is why we are all here), intake temps are just as important as timing advance, AFR's, IDC's, etc... They are all in the same boat, so throw them out the window together.

I'm not saying the ebay cores are a paper weight. I'm sure they offer more than an OE sidemount, but they also have their limits as well. There will come a point to where even the SSAC core becomes a restriction just as the OE SMIC. But without testing, you'll never know.

 

[SBstar]

Maybe I should sale my ebay intercooler for a core that cost $1000 plus shipping. I know Im running a 14b but the ebay intercooler isnt good enough.

A supra SMIC can also be had for cheaper then the SSAC kit and would perform fine with a 14b as well. Whats your point? Perhaps people just want the "look" of a fmic? Everyone here is going to defend their point until the end, I just hope the info in this thread will show people who really want to do it right, and want to see the real numbers that they can refer to when making their decisions.

 

[Street_Killer]

Im pretty much done proving my point cause I have. All in all there are very few people here that require more then a ssac fmic, so why spend the money on the the 1200 dollar one, which I never said wasn't better. That money can be spent on other things.

 

[wishihadatalon]

Im pretty much done proving my point cause I have. All in all there are very few people here that require more then a ssac fmic, so why spend the money on the the 1200 dollar one, which I never said wasn't better. That money can be spent on other things.

Like ebay 16gs

I guess I should stop being a dick, I need to save my strength for the wiseman to respond

 

[Street_Killer]

If someone wanted to, then why not?

I think we have a case of some rich punk thinking he's better then everyone here, because he buys the expensive brand name stuff.

 

[wishihadatalon]

If someone wanted to, then why not?

I think we have a case of some rich punk thinking he's better then everyone here, because he buys the expensive brand name stuff.

Me rich? I live in Michigan, no one is rich here. I would say I make average for my age, and I fall in the range of what LAN posted, but I am very far from rich. However I will save up my pennies to make sure that I buy quality parts that I don't have to buy twice. Some say that is the dutch in me, but I just think it is common sense .

 

[Street_Killer]

Thats fine, spend it how you want. This is my last post in this topic, to bad you can't see that its overkill to spend 900 extra dollars and use it for something better.

 

[LaN-]

That's a pretty ignorant statement, IMO. From a performance standpoint (which is why we are all here), intake temps are just as important as timing advance, AFR's, IDC's, etc... They are all in the same boat, so throw them out the window together.

I'm not saying the ebay cores are a paper weight. I'm sure they offer more than an OE sidemount, but they also have their limits as well. There will come a point to where even the SSAC core becomes a restriction just as the OE SMIC. But without testing, you'll never know.

I'll agree with you it is an ignorant statement, i said it that way to make a point. I completely understand what your saying.

 

[LaN-]

wishihadatalon don't take any offense to this, but no matter what anyone says you will not change your views on ebay intercoolers. They work for some and don't for others thats all you can say.

In a perfect world we'd all like to have brand name intercoolers, but it doesn't always work that way.

Only reason i said David is bias is because it directly effects his business, so he is almost forced to be negative toward ebay intercoolers.

Don't get me wrong the guy is "god", but do you get what i'm saying? its like McDonald's saying "ok" things about Burger King......they can't.........it has to be "we are better then burger king"

Does that make any sense?

 

[LaN-]

Me rich? I live in Michigan, no one is rich here. I would say I make average for my age, and I fall in the range of what LAN posted, but I am very far from rich. However I will save up my pennies to make sure that I buy quality parts that I don't have to buy twice. Some say that is the dutch in me, but I just think it is common sense .

What is "quality"? What you've got to remember (like i said before), not all ebay IC's are made by the same company.

Is it not possible that some of the companies on ebay have the same views and ethics as some of the brand name companies that sell IC's at the higher price? They may just be selling at a far cheaper price to try and compete.

Like i said i sell cores from ebay, but i know my supplier is better quality. So you never really know.

 

[wishihadatalon]

What is "quality"? What you've got to remember (like i said before), not all ebay IC's are made by the same company.

Is it not possible that some of the companies on ebay have the same views and ethics as some of the brand name companies that sell IC's at the higher price? They may just be selling at a far cheaper price to try and compete.

Like i said i sell cores from ebay, but i know my supplier is better quality. So you never really know.

I am not trying to make this about the cores that you sell so I will make it short. But how do you know they are better quality? Did the supplier test them? Again I don't want to make this about yours, nor am I really comparing yours since this was about ssac.

 

[2gGSX]

I'm not saying the ebay cores are a paper weight. I'm sure they offer more than an OE sidemount, but they also have their limits as well. There will come a point to where even the SSAC core becomes a restriction just as the OE SMIC. But without testing, you'll never know.

This is the take home message.

There is nothing else to argue, as the same thing is being said over and over. If there is no *need* (this does not mean you can't do it, or shouldn't even) to upgrade, then don't. BUT, if your goal is to make 500 whp on pump and you can only make 400 because "the car knocks no matter what", then it might be time to start looking at components holding you back. On the other hand, if all you want is 400 whp and you're doing it fine, then high intake charge temps be damned--stick with what you have.

Just look at Kevin's post on the first page of this thread and keep in mind that his goals are well beyond what most people want. His setup is obviously working, but he wants to go faster. He finds out his intercooler setup is holding him back, and now he will upgrade.

AverageGuyDSM (sorry if this is actually anyone's user name) wants 300 whp. He does it with a Supra SMIC, and goes home completely happy. Even if he hypothetically has intake temps 100 degrees above ambient, should he spend the money and upgrade to a race FMIC? Only if he wants to.

Will the rest of this board berate him for his setup, knowing he's reached his goals? Maybe, but we'd all at least tell him he "should" upgrade in case he wants more power. Of course we would've just COMPLETELY missed the part where he said he's done.

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[tkelly27]

There are a lot of factors that go into proving the performance of an intercooler. Temperature drop gives the efficiency directly
http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=61809&stc=1
meanwhile the pressure drop across the core can play a big part in just how much heat the turbo is putting out. There is only one reference to pressure drop in this entire thread.

Obviously, the one run with that particular ebay IC (the copy of the AMS) had a 58 degree temperature rise at 42psi. The AMS race core (I'd like to point out that you should be using a race only IC if you are pushing that much boost, it even says on the AMS website "If you are putting out over 600 awhp you need the AMS Race Intercooler to lower your air intake temps & reduce pressure drop.") at 42psi does only have a 6 degree temperature rise. The BR and AMS race cores clean it's clock in that application, without a doubt.

Look at the standard AMS core though, at 23psi there is a 32 degree temperature increase. This is a $1000 intercooler. We can't know without the data, but there's another 20psi to be pushed through that before it's at the same level of the SSAC unit. 20psi is a big number, it could easily get hotter than the SSAC unit. Post #40 shows a 36 degree rise over ambient at 31psi.

Here is my point, you can't compare racing intercoolers to street intercoolers, ebay or not. All of the comparisons I've seen put on by major companies compare the ebay intercoolers to their top of the line IC's on engines that run boost and hp levels that are unreasonable to run on the street. No matter what their claims are, Ebay IC's are not for all out racing.

I'll never claim that they are more efficient, and I won't claim that they can keep up with $1500 race IC's on race cars. They might have the cooling capacity to keep up with them at lower boost/lower heat requirements, but there's no data for that.

That's great that your IC doesn't heat soak, but none of the data you've provided has any relevance to your setup. Just because it doesn't cool 42psi from a GT35 as well as a race unit, doesn't mean it won't cool as well as the kit you have on the application you're running. Even if it didn't cool as well, it might have a lower pressure drop allowing more flow and making more power.

 

[DGajre777]

I don't really need to support mine. Mine has already been supported by raw data. Now I am just having fun

Your raw data is baised and irrelevent.

 

[ChunkyLover53]

Okay - lets make this a tech thread... mods please move this to Tech or lock it.

Like I said - post some evidence, not hear say. If you have a dyno log of that pull with a SSAC FMIC, go ahead and post it.

2 liter, BR GT35r header kit, EBAY (AMS STYLE) FMIC
Starting AIT 64.40 degrees
Ending AIT 122 degrees
Peak boost 42.1 psi
20 psi at 4563 rpm

Only one person on here runs the SSAC with a GT35 turbo (GreddyGST) and no one that I know on DSMTuners runs a GT35R with a SSAC intercooler at 42psi.

When any turbo makes boost, it creates heat, the FMIC's job is to cool the air charge. At 42.1 PSI, I doubt that the SSAC FMIC had the ability to cool the air being pushed through it with a GT35R and it was probably heatsoaked at that point, hence the temperate increase.

There is a reason why shops make RACE intercoolers. For an average person with a 16G or 50trim, the SSAC is more than enough.

If you want to compare apples with apples and oranges with oranges, go ahead but stop basing your information on a SSAC intercooler used on a GT35R at 42 psi. This is like comparing a T25 to a 50 trim and blaming the stock SMIC for being bad because it caused a temp increase on the 50trim. Mitsubishi used SMICs on stock 1Gs and 2Gs for years and when you heat soak an intercooler because your turbo is BIG, you upgrade the to a bigger intercooler. This doesn't make an intercooler crappy - please get your facts straight before you post.

First of all I am not as smart as all the people who posted before me, but I liked this post because it is cool to see someone is pushing the ebay FMIC's. I think we all realize that having a nice race intercooler would be more efficient, but obviousely it is not necessary for people shooting for 300 HP. Just like we all realize that an SAFC is inferior to DSMlink, but do people use SAFC's and does it work? Sure as long as you're keeping around 650cc injectors or below.

 

[Street_Killer]

There are a lot of factors that go into proving the performance of an intercooler. Temperature drop gives the efficiency directly
http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=61809&stc=1
meanwhile the pressure drop across the core can play a big part in just how much heat the turbo is putting out. There is only one reference to pressure drop in this entire thread.

Obviously, the one run with that particular ebay IC (the copy of the AMS) had a 58 degree temperature rise at 42psi. The AMS race core (I'd like to point out that you should be using a race only IC if you are pushing that much boost, it even says on the AMS website "If you are putting out over 600 awhp you need the AMS Race Intercooler to lower your air intake temps & reduce pressure drop.") at 42psi does only have a 6 degree temperature rise. The BR and AMS race cores clean it's clock, without a doubt.

Look at the standard AMS core though, at 23psi there is a 32 degree temperature increase. This is a $1000 intercooler. We can't know without the data, but there's another 20psi to be pushed through that before it's at the same level of the SSAC unit. 20psi is a big number, it could easily get hotter than the SSAC unit. Post #40 shows a 36 degree rise over ambient at 31psi.

Here is my point, you can't compare racing intercoolers to street intercoolers, ebay or not. All of the comparisons I've seen put on by major companies compare the ebay intercoolers to their top of the line IC's on engines that run boost and hp levels that are unreasonable to run on the street. No matter what their claims are, Ebay IC's are not for all out racing.

I'll never claim that they are more efficient, and I won't claim that they can keep up with $1500 race IC's on race cars. They might have the cooling capacity to keep up with them at lower boost/lower heat requirements, but there's no data for that.

That's great that your IC doesn't heat soak, but none of the data you've provided has any relevance to your setup. Just because it doesn't cool 42psi from a GT35 as well as a race unit, doesn't mean it won't cool as well as the kit you have on the application you're running. Even if it didn't cool as well, it might have a lower pressure drop allowing more flow and making more power.

thank you for saying what I was trying to say and couldn't. I dont see any arguments to that either.

 

[99gst_racer]

This thread will stay open as long as there are no more personal attacks, and/or flaming.

This thread is about relative data and technical information regarding the SSAC FMIC kit. Let's keeps our posts pertaining to that subject.

Thanks.

 

[Ludachris]

Those who are posting personal attacks and/or name calling, consider this your warning. If you can't debate without calling someone a name you need to back away from your keyboard and relax for a minute or go somewhere else to discuss DSMs. Keep this on topic without the attacks please and if necessary, use the Ignore feature.

 

[wishihadatalon]

Your raw data is baised and irrelevent.

So you are calling supporter of this site, the site that hold you at such a high status, a biased liar? Just a little fyi, kiggly posted information that supported DBs findings.