speedometer stays at 60, speed sensor or gauge cluster?

[1Gina2G]

okay so my speedometer does not read correctly at all but the tachometer reads.fine. as soon as the car is moving in first gear, the speedometer automatically reads & stays at 60 as long as the cars moving.

the gas gauge also does not work in the çluster. only checked to see if the speed sensor was loose but it was not. I had to also install the cluster myself after I got the car, so is it possible it needs a recalibration? if so, how?
thanks in advance.

 

[kddrosos]

Is there a pull-it-yourself junkyard around where you live? You can grab a speed sensor cheap from any M/T FWD 95-99 or M/T AWD 95-96. At least with this problem it's kind of one or the other, assuming the wiring is OK. Considering it behaves that way when the car starts to move, my moneys on the VSS.

Part numbers here if needed:
http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/newbie-forum/433133-difference-between-speed-sensors.html

 

[1Gina2G]

Is there a pull-it-yourself junkyard around where you live? You can grab a speed sensor cheap from any M/T FWD 95-99 or M/T AWD 95-96. At least with this problem it's kind of one or the other, assuming the wiring is OK. Considering it behaves that way when the car starts to move, my moneys on the VSS.

Part numbers here if needed:
http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/newbie-forum/433133-difference-between-speed-sensors.html

Unfortunatley, closest yard that has the cars in stock are 2 hours away, 4 hours total driving atleast. Guage clusters appear to be selling for 40-100 shipped average, all used.

I was already debating earlier when I tried everything to diagnose the gas gauge problem, if I should just tryout another 'suposivley working' used cluster set. Even though the gas guage itself passed the 'grounding test' and the gauge filled up to show it's working, so possibley a bad wire? Still not sure. The cost of a new aftermarket gas guage is also around $50.

I've read about people putting the needles back on wrong, even though I thought it should only go on one way. Along with having to ADJUST it manualy while driving. It just seems to me, that if it WERE out of 'calibration' that the needle would still change WITH the speed, rather then ONLY staying at 60MPH (roughly) whenver in motion.

been researching through my phone all day on testing the speed sensor but I'm home now, honestly I don't feel the chiltons manual I have has a procedure on this either. thanks again.

 

[m1nd64m3]

Sounds like the gear is fine because when that gets chewed up it just goes to zero. Does anyone have a link to the shop manual? It will probably tell you how to test the sensor and the cluster.

 

[1Gina2G]

okay well I've been researching on & off since I got home today and I'm not any closer to figuring out either what it could be or what to check.

Seems like I'm the only one who has had this problem...I think it may be impossible to re-calibrate the speedometer on this cluster for the simple fact that it doesn't seem to have any idea on what speed even is, just ON or OFF really. the general idea seems to be that if there is no speed, that's usually the speed sensor itself.

everyone else either has a speedo that does not work or the readings are off, off to where it can just be manualy pushed back into place while looking at a GPS.

I do have a GPS that I will use for the next drive, honestly feeling that it's only going to stay at that new mark only in drive.

I see people are using a drill of some sort to spin the speed sensor gear? What exactly could you use for this, and does the speed sensor seperate some how?

I'm gunna take the speed sensor out and take a look at IT and anything worn out / out of place inside the transmission. If everything looks normal, I may very well just buy another gauge cluster and hope for a fix, after I try the manual adjustment on the speedo itself. hopefully a good thread will finally appear with something I can check out, searching for the rest of the night

 

[gofer]

Just unplug the VSS and go for a drive, if the gauge drops to ZERO then it's the VSS and if it stays at 60mph then there's either a false signal on the VSS input to the ECU (pin 86) or the gauge cluster is faulty.

I don't recommend you pulling the VSS out of the transmission unless you have to, more often than not the 10mm bolt that holds it on drops in there and then you'll have to pull the tranny and break it open to pull it out. If you do have no choice but to pull the VSS be sure to COMPLETELY loosen that 10mm bolt and remove it from the motor mount with a pair of needle nose before you pull the sensor, then reverse for install.

 

[1Gina2G]

Just unplug the VSS and go for a drive, if the gauge drops to ZERO then it's the VSS and if it stays at 60mph then there's either a false signal on the VSS input to the ECU (pin 86) or the gauge cluster is faulty.

I don't recommend you pulling the VSS out of the transmission unless you have to, more often than not the 10mm bolt that holds it on drops in there and then you'll have to pull the tranny and break it open to pull it out. If you do have no choice but to pull the VSS be sure to COMPLETELY loosen that 10mm bolt and remove it from the motor mount with a pair of needle nose before you pull the sensor, then reverse for install.

I really appreciate the reply, I will try that and update this thread after my next drive in a few days, waiting on a part. I'll hold off on taking the sensor out unless it shows that it's the VSS, was also going to blow some compressed air around the sensor to get surronding dirt that gets down there if I did. Glad to have something to go on though. thanks again.

 

[gofer]

Here's some good reads if you're looking for some principles of operations and P/N stuff.

2g VSS Part Numbers

VSS Principles of Operation

 

[kddrosos]

That's too bad to hear about the lack of u-pull-it yards. You can get stuff dirt-cheap at those places. As for the gas gauge, does the needle just constantly read zero? Does it move at all? Does the gas light come on if your running really low? I just recently fixed my gas gauge (needle never dropped below 1/4 mark) by positioning the sending unit correctly back inside the tank. Now I get to see that "E" mark more often! . However, your cluster might be at fault if it's completely unresponsive. As for the VSS, unplugging is fast and easy, but if your feeling squirrely then removal is quite simple. I use a deep-weld 10mm just because clearance is so tight, but the most important thing to do is to lightly push down on the bolt with your socket as your lifting the sensor out. If you look at the attached pic, that little nub that sticks out is the only location for a bolt to hold the sensor in place. Gofer's right, you drop that bolt in the tranny and your going to have a great time reading VFAQ articles on transmission rebuilds.

 

[nickk90]

I'd unplug the VSS and see if it show something different on the gauge. If you have a scan tool that scan shows live data, logger or DSMLink then you can also look at those and see what the computer is reading as far as vehicle speed goes.

 

[1Gina2G]

That's too bad to hear about the lack of u-pull-it yards. You can get stuff dirt-cheap at those places. As for the gas gauge, does the needle just constantly read zero? Does it move at all? Does the gas light come on if your running really low? I just recently fixed my gas gauge (needle never dropped below 1/4 mark) by positioning the sending unit correctly back inside the tank. Now I get to see that "E" mark more often! . However, your cluster might be at fault if it's completely unresponsive. As for the VSS, unplugging is fast and easy, but if your feeling squirrely then removal is quite simple. I use a deep-weld 10mm just because clearance is so tight, but the most important thing to do is to lightly push down on the bolt with your socket as your lifting the sensor out. If you look at the attached pic, that little nub that sticks out is the only location for a bolt to hold the sensor in place. Gofer's right, you drop that bolt in the tranny and your going to have a great time reading VFAQ articles on transmission rebuilds.

The gas guage stays at the very bottom, which is why I'm assuming the LOW GAS light on the cluster is lit up. This is me just finally being able to try the whole car out after 2 years of rebuilding. Anyways.

I've had to find/replace both fuel sending units, due to improper removal from the previous owner, kinked up all the lines
with that said, the OHMS value was still consistent on ALL 4 fuel sending units when you move the floater peice (2 per AWD chasis) and I installed them how they appeared to be, but I didn't see any 'marks' to line up to for either side, not sure where they would be.

I went and pulled them both out..AGAIN. to manualy move the floaters with the car on accessorie, and of course everything pluged in. Needle NEVER budged. Also I tested the 'yellow' wire to be grounded, and the guage filled up all the way.

Really appears to be a bad wire, (the ground/gauge wire is smaller, the smaller the wire the more fragile, so totally possible) or a faulty gauge cluster - that just so happend to pass the 'gas gauge test'.

 

[kddrosos]

I'm really starting to suspect a faulty cluster based off some of the testing and trials you've endured. The fact that you re-installed the sending units and checked the resistance would lead me to believe faulty wiring or gauge cluster failure. Even if you totally botched the fuel-level sender install, you'd still see the gauge respond in some way. As for the VSS, pulling the plug is a good call for some kind of observation for behavioral change, but try to get someone to second-hand you a cluster, even if it's just for testing purposes. That's honestly the best advice I can give as for a next-step. Good luck and hope this can be resolved quickly and inexpensively! On second thought, is that even possible on these cars?

 

[1Gina2G]

Okay so I got everything set today, and I took it out for its first drive since this thread was started.

With the VSS unpluged, the speedometer stays at 0 the entire time. So I guess it's pointing to a faulty speed sensor.

I thought I mentioned this in my OP, I didn't describe it well though -- When I got the car, the entire gauge cluster was uninstalled from the dash, and the needles removed. There was no markings from the previous owner, so I just assumed it was just placed at the bottom, where the needles fall to when turned off, how could you go wrong right?

I've read quite a few threads now, on how you can't just remove the needles and put them back in but no clear guides on calibration.

is there even a way, to calibrate the speedo?

 

[1Gina2G]

went for another ride again today, made sure that the VSS was plugged in the right way, with nothing being loose. Still jumps to 60MPH whenever the car is in motion.

 

[gofer]

I don't think it's the speedo or the VSS gear, I think it's the VSS itself which is $72 new or you can try to get it at a junkyard for less. It's P/N: MD756606 ---> OEM VEHICLE SPEED SENSOR: MITSUBISHI ECLIPSE 95-99
Or if you've got a buddy with a 2g that's up on jack-stands, unfortunately most of us do, ask them nicely to borrow their VSS to see if it fixes your problem. Just remember to be careful when you pull that 10mm bolt or you will be dropping your transmission.

As far as the gas gauge issue you're having, odds are the float is getting hung up on the side of the gas tank. You can test the float by pulling the pump and CAREFULLY plugging in the connector on top with the key just turned to the "ON" position while you play with the float and see if the gauge at the dash follows.

 

[1Gina2G]

I don't think it's the speedo or the VSS gear, I think it's the VSS itself which is $72 new or you can try to get it at a junkyard for less. It's P/N: MD756606 ---> OEM VEHICLE SPEED SENSOR: MITSUBISHI ECLIPSE 95-99
Or if you've got a buddy with a 2g that's up on jack-stands, unfortunately most of us do, ask them nicely to borrow their VSS to see if it fixes your problem. Just remember to be careful when you pull that 10mm bolt or you will be dropping your transmission.

As far as the gas gauge issue you're having, odds are the float is getting hung up on the side of the gas tank. You can test the float by pulling the pump and CAREFULLY plugging in the connector on top with the key just turned to the "ON" position while you play with the float and see if the gauge at the dash follows.

Do you have any opinion on the calibration / adjustment of the needles themselves? Or am I right to think that, even if the needle for the speedo was placed incorrectly, that it would still move at different speeds as the actual speed of the car changes?

I also tried moving the floaters by hand with no response from the gauge. both fuel units where tested / checked for ohm readings and they were all good. even did an ohm reading on the pump assembley with it installed and got regular ohms reading (been a while), not sure what the deal is. as mentioned earlier, the gauge fills up with the wire grounded.
just one of those things..

 

[gofer]

...the good news is the speedo sat at 0 when you unplugged the VSS, had it not you could have been chasing a short somewhere which is never a good time. If the needles were incorrectly installed then they would still move, just jumping to 60mph and sitting there no matter what the speed tells me that VSS itself is damaged (shorted) internally.

Seems like you've got some wire chasing to do if you want to get that gas level reading accurate.

 

[1Gina2G]

okay so I'm kinda lost now yet relived. I'm thinking the plug may have been in backwards, even though I thought it looked right before I unplugged it the first time.

After 1 more recheck, of checking the speedometer readings with the VSS unpluged/pluged in, this last time I looked really closely, to be sure the plastic tabs matched up.

Right away I noticed, while engaging into 1st gear, that the speedo went to 20-23 automatically, and started actually going up more just as speed was increasing. I can tell its off by atleast 10-20MPH, was reading 60 when it felt like I was doing 45-50.

So now it looks like a matter of adjusting the needles while driving, with the cluster glass off of course. I've read about a few people doing this, while either pacing someone or using a GPS.

Not sure if i'll run into any trouble during / after this, so I wont mark this as resolved just yet.

Thanks for all the help everyone, and especially gofer!

 

[Dsmnitro]

It's doing that cause the needles have been removed that's all. I know cause mine are doing the exact same thing.Just take the needles out and start the car.Let it warm up for the temp gauge and as far as the speedo gauge put it at 0 when your parked.To needles calibration I bought a HUD heads up display and I can do the fine adjustments with that. It's plug and play. It has RPM,speedo,volts and temp if you want to hook them up it's up to you. One good thing is you can leave it in your car and read it off your windshield.$69 for the unit.

Oh one more thing I forgot is for the fuel gauge not reading anything and it's past the E mark.pull the needle off fill up your car with gas and set the needle to full then you will know it's where it's supposed to be.

 

[1Gina2G]

thanks for the advice but honestly I have enough electronics in the car that I added in i'd really like to avoid regularly using a gps / external speed device as my speedo.

I have not marked this thread resolved since moving the needles into place while in drive is alot harder then it was made out to be when I read it. it seems like it hurts more then it helps since they really dont stay where there at when they are moved

like I said orignially, no real way of calibrating the gauges once the needles are removed, and the speedo would stay at 0 when parked / not moving its just the readings were off once you started moving.

once I tried to move the needles, I was experiencing my orginal problem - the gauge staying around 60 while acceerating under 60mph. I vary well may have to depend on the GPS that I using but I'd rather have the speedo fixed.

anyone know how where to move the needles or should i give up on this?

 

[gofer]

So the speedo doesn't jump from 0 while the car is motionless to 60mph as soon as you start moving forward?

Did you ever pull your VSS/gear from the transmission and investigate?

 

[1Gina2G]

So the speedo doesn't jump from 0 while the car is motionless to 60mph as soon as you start moving forward?

Did you ever pull your VSS/gear from the transmission and investigate?

It does do just that - stay at 0 until in motion, at all times in motion -60 give or take some, but sometimes I noted pulling out of the driveway slowly it actually read in the 25-30 area untill I started hitting the 40's at which point it was already in the 60's area again. either of those 2 things make me think its the needles for sure.

before I tried moving the needles in drive, with the gps side by side, I know the needles were really really close to being accurate but maybe off by 5-10mph so I tried to adjust and now they're off again so Im basically getting the same problems. So I'm pretty sure the speed sensors fine.

 

[gofer]

The needles don't move themselves from 0 to 60'ish mph, it requires a signal from the speedo sensor (VSS) and that signal must be accurate. It would literally take 20 minutes to swap a 2g DSM buddies KNOWN working VSS (keep your gear though) into the transmission so you're certain that's not the culprit.

Pull the battery, unplug the VSS, remove the 10mm bolt, and pull straight up on the VSS.

My money is on a damaged sensor.

...or you can unplug your VSS altogether and never rack up mileage on the odometer.

 

[1Gina2G]

The needles don't move themselves from 0 to 60'ish mph, it requires a signal from the speedo sensor (VSS) and that signal must be accurate. It would literally take 20 minutes to swap a 2g DSM buddies KNOWN working VSS (keep your gear though) into the transmission so you're certain that's not the culprit.

Pull the battery, unplug the VSS, remove the 10mm bolt, and pull straight up on the VSS.

My money is on a damaged sensor.

...or you can unplug your VSS altogether and never rack up mileage on the odometer.

okay well since I don't have any local dsm friends I'll have to purchase a new one to try it out but I guess it's the only thing left. The sensor was in really good condition when I put it into the rebuilt trans so it hasn't gone through anything too much. As long as the sensor was pushed all way down, bolted down fairly tight, is there anyway I could of incorrectly installed the sensor? thanks again

 

[gofer]

Unfortunately, no. That sensor install is about as straight forward as it gets. It sucks you don't have ANYONE around there, not even sure how that's possible since it seems like the majority of our community is out East. (I know you probably consider yourself in "the South" but your East to me) Personally, I'd take a trip out to the junkyard and see what you come up with or put a WTB (want to borrow) ad up in your regional thread here and see if you can make a local DSM friend.

Try to dig through a junkyard before you drop $75 on something that's a shot in the dark fix.

Did this start happening soon after the rebuilt trans install? The reason why I've done my homework on these VSS is because of a Shep trans I installed was giving me VSS headaches. Three months, $50, and a few phone calls to Shep I finally found out that they "might have" installed a '95-'96 speedo drive gear inside the transmission that was mating up with my '97-'99 VSS gear. The transmission was out of a '99 so it made sense to me that I should be using the corresponding VSS gear, turns out that I needed the '95-'96 all along. My symptoms weren't exactly like yours though, my speedo would just stop working and every once and awhile jump to 20mph (while I was going 65mph) and then drop to 0 again randomly.

Just another idea...