SERIOUS HELP NEEDED!!...my car wont run on all 4 cylinders once reved even in neutral

[jjbrasil]

like the title says....my car has been like this for about 2 months now and i really need to get this fixed because i am unable to drive it ive tried just about everything and i really dont trust any shops around here to get it fixed.
But anyways.. im able to start up the car just fine and it will idle perfect and run just fine "warming up".....i can rev it up a little bit and everything is great....but just as soon as i rev the engine past 3.5rpm's and once the rev's drops it like goes into this almost :limp mode: and will spit, sputter and only run on 2 cylinders and will continue to run like this and if i do not feather the gas it will stall out, this also is not even driving and building any boost, its just sitting in nuetral. Im NOT getting CEL either!! the things i have checked and replaced are!
-Injector resistor pack
-02 sensor
-coolant temp sensor
-swapped a ecu
-swapped power transistor
-swapped maf sensor
-i Re-Timed the t-belt cuz it was off a tooth
-swapped crank angle sensor
-cas i tested and cleaned
-swapped different 450's and FPR
-compression is ok
-all sensors are plugged in
If anybody can help me out that would be so much of help!! thanks in advance

 

[trbotaln]

are you sure you are giving the ecu enough time to learn the fuel trims again after unplugged the battery. My car will want to die for a while after I unplug the battery, and it usually will still idle fine. After I drive around for a while it gets back to normal.

 

[jjbrasil]

i Highly dought that is the problem becuase this is a SERIOUS misfire. A 4 banger running on 2 cylinders is not a pretty site. and yea the car barraly wants to run. But i do know what you are refurring to though about it learning the fuel trims.

Also anouther ---update---

Did a compression test yesturday on # 3 cylinder and it was 0 .. this was the cylinder that was low in the first place....i then checked all of the cylinders today again...and umm..this TOTALLY doesnt make any sence. 160, 162, 165, 170 this is a cold motor also

Does ANYTHING seem wierd??? I had 0 compression in cylinder #3 yesturday but today i had 162?? o and 1 other thing...i noticed that when the car would run good and then all the sudden start running on 2 cylinders, it would make this kinda loud metal CLICK noise im guessing coming from the motor??

 

[GTM]

...
Did a compression test yesturday on # 3 cylinder and it was 0 .. this was the cylinder that was low in the first place....i then checked all of the cylinders today again...and umm..this TOTALLY doesnt make any sence. 160, 162, 165, 170 this is a cold motor also

Does ANYTHING seem wierd??? I had 0 compression in cylinder #3 yesturday but today i had 162?? o and 1 other thing...i noticed that when the car would run good and then all the sudden start running on 2 cylinders, it would make this kinda loud metal CLICK noise im guessing coming from the motor??

I've never heard or seen any such condition in the 20k-30k cars I've worked on in my life time. You don't get 0 compression one day and 150 or whatever the next, it just doesn't happen. All I can suggest is take it to a professional get them to diagnose the problem, it's called _CHECK AND REPORT_. You are are not obligated except for the extent of what you tell them and the estimate they give you for the diagnosis.

Let us know when you have some answers.

Cheers,
GTM

 

[EagleTalonRacer]

The DSM wise man is right. Just rebuild the whole thing, thats what im doing.

 

[jjbrasil]

if money wasnt an issue i would have everything NEW on my car...but right now im just trying to decide whats best for my financial situation as to what i should do...what if i rebuilt the bottem end and the problem still persists? what if it fixes it? i have no clue but im def not gonna just give up!

 

[GTM]

if money wasnt an issue i would have everything NEW on my car...but right now im just trying to decide whats best for my financial situation as to what i should do...what if i rebuilt the bottem end and the problem still persists? what if it fixes it? i have no clue but im def not gonna just give up!

I wasn't advocating a rebuild. I call to question your compression gauge, how you are using it, or you have dirt in the spark plug wells which keeps falling in and holding valves open.

It is possible to get dirt in the check valve in your compression gauge and hold the valve open so that it will start to climb and then leak down before it gets to the next compression. If you screw it in and then have to go turn the key to start then come back to read the compression it could have leaked all the pressure out of the gauge. If you heard it trying to compress (as previously mentioned 3-4 compression strokes) and yet had 0 reading this would probably be the case and what I suspect happened. You should have done the remaining cylrs and then repeated the affected cylr to establish it was just a fluke and not an accurate test the first time. Does this sound like it could have happened this way?? If you have a sticking valve we need to establish this but it happened also before you took it apart yes/no?? Could be worse, could have no oil pressure after a rebuild and they can't figure it out.

Certainly 165 is a good number as long as they are all within 10%. We need to understand what is happening if it's mechanical or electrical but so far I see no reason to worry about the bottom end, for sure you can't have rings sealing one second and not the next.

Cheers,
GTM

 

[jjbrasil]

Here is a video that shows my problem.

Save file and watch... don't try to play it directly from the site. (right click save as) Sorry for it being a little long..

http://bjornloveslaurie.com/shares/4g63.wmv

Let me know what you think....

 

[GTM]

Here is a video that shows my problem.

Save file and watch... don't try to play it directly from the site. (right click save as) Sorry for it being a little long..

http://bjornloveslaurie.com/shares/4g63.wmv

Let me know what you think....

What are the sounds at 28+ seconds, the first and maybe a few a little later sounded like valve(s) hitting pistons. Then I thought I heard random spark leaks and thought the injectors got noisy.

How long does it take to develop for this to be repeated. First start in the morning? Other times in the day? Cooling off time?

Cheers,
GTM

 

[jjbrasil]

My freind thinks that noise at 28+ seconds is possibly rod knock becuase he told me that when the motor drops so low in rpm and gets a back fire thiers like Barraly any oil pressure, causing that little bit of rod knock. Does that sound accurate at all?

Also the engine will do this whenever it is started, cold or warm, the car is never "driveable" so i cant tell ya times of the day, but yea i do hear a LOT of clicking near the coilpack, transistor, spark plugs, injectors.....etc when the car starts runnin bad. what would u think this could be? I by no means are very good with electrical stuff

 

[GTM]

My freind thinks that noise at 28+ seconds is possibly rod knock becuase he told me that when the motor drops so low in rpm and gets a back fire thiers like Barraly any oil pressure, causing that little bit of rod knock. Does that sound accurate at all?

Also the engine will do this whenever it is started, cold or warm, the car is never "driveable" so i cant tell ya times of the day, but yea i do hear a LOT of clicking near the coilpack, transistor, spark plugs, injectors.....etc when the car starts runnin bad. what would u think this could be? I by no means are very good with electrical stuff

I'm not sure it's rod knock, it may be knock caused by some other event such as ign timing going to far advanced, starting to knock and then going to retard... does the knock continue and I didn't hear it?

Did you set the ign timing correctly? Did I ask if you had any codes? Sensors... temp, knock, cold start, are all good? Is the BISS screw set correctly, has the throttle body been modded?

Maybe others with DSL will take the time to download the video. BTW it was more like 23-24 seconds into the vides that it comes unglued.

Thinking out loud, I've got this gut feeling you have too much advance ... you have no cold fast idle. Zilch! Continuing, it's starts followed with too much knock so it goes retard, approximately 24 seconds later it comes off what should be fast idle (but it's not) and tries to go advance on the timing but again starts to knock and goes into limp mode. This could be combined with a temp sensor failing...

Biss screw setting enging off: Count the exact number of turns it takes to screw it all the way down. Write the number someplace so you don't forget, now unscrew exactly 3 turns and then start the car. Let me know the result.

Cheers,
GTM

 

[jjbrasil]

no the knock sound doesnt keep going. it just does it for a sec and then goes away but it will get that rod knock sound right b4 or as it starts runnin real bad, but wont continue.

im not sure as to how i can set my ign timing becuase my cam angle sensor is behind the cam sprocket and the crank angle sensor is behind the t belt case. this 95 isnt like my old 91 were i could just turn the cas?

also if i let the engine just idle it can get up to operating temperature no problem its just after its rev'd up then it does this limp mode thingy. The coolant temp sensor i did replace with a dealer part, the only CEL codes i threw were, CYLINDER MISSFIRE detected....it threw a few different cylinders not only 1 cylinder, and then i got an emissions CEL also.

I swapped out different TB's and my friends BISS was set correctly becuase it came directly off his car. im not at home right now but i can try the biss thingy later when i get home. but is thier such thing of the ecu going into a "limp mode" like this?

 

[GTM]

...
it will get that rod knock sound right b4 or as it starts runnin real bad, but wont continue.

im not sure as to how i can set my ign timing becuase my cam angle sensor is behind the cam sprocket and the crank angle sensor is behind the t belt case. this 95 isnt like my old 91 were i could just turn the cas?

also if i let the engine just idle it can get up to operating temperature no problem its just after its rev'd up then it does this limp mode thingy. The coolant temp sensor i did replace with a dealer part, the only CEL codes i threw were, CYLINDER MISSFIRE detected....it threw a few different cylinders not only 1 cylinder, and then i got an emissions CEL also.

I swapped out different TB's and my friends BISS was set correctly becuase it came directly off his car. im not at home right now but i can try the biss thingy later when i get home. but is thier such thing of the ecu going into a "limp mode" like this?

I swear that sounds like spark plug wire leak, if that's true you should be able to see it in a dark environment. What happens to you noid lights when that happens?

I can't help you with the timing set but think it needs to be checked. I think there is a wire which needs to be grounded but that's as much as I know. I hope you have a manual for you need the specifics for this engine and can't depend on your old car. The fact it never goes into fast idle (1000-1500) is telling us something and perhaps this is where you should spend some time if the plug wires are ok. You may have gotten so many things out of spec by trying to cure one you have introduced 6 more problems.

Cheers,
GTM

 

[Greg Collier]

im not sure as to how i can set my ign timing becuase my cam angle sensor is behind the cam sprocket and the crank angle sensor is behind the t belt case. this 95 isnt like my old 91 were i could just turn the cas?

This is a real important procedure for elimination. Had a similar problem and discovered CAS was turned 180 degrees after replaced with new one.

 

[GTM]

im not sure as to how i can set my ign timing becuase my cam angle sensor is behind the cam sprocket and the crank angle sensor is behind the t belt case. this 95 isnt like my old 91 were i could just turn the cas?

This is a real important procedure for elimination. Had a similar problem and discovered CAS was turned 180 degrees after replaced with new one.

Hi Greg, thanks for jumping in here.

A quick temp fix for that would be then to just swap spark plug wires if possible. With firing order of 1342 then swap 4<>1 and 3<>2 but mark them before changing so you can at least get them back AND my brain isn't screwed on. I think these do not use the double coils so it may not be that easy for testing. That also might explain all the arcing I hear.

Any other ideas?

Cheers,
GTM

 

[jjbrasil]

yea swapping plugs did nothin. but i did pull out all of my plugs and they were VERY VERY white on the electrode...def lean! something isnt right here! what causes very very lean conditions like this if im running stock ecu and injectors...etc?

ALso i did notice that exhaust is comin out of my 02 housing dump at idle, cuz i can put my hand over the tube and feel it? i didnt think it should do this and i cant remember if exhaust came out b4 my car ran bad....and its not like its POuring out its just noticably coming out.

 

[mostapasta]

The exhaust gases that where coming out of the O2 dump sort of sputtered out like in puffs.

We also checked the compression again and it went from 120 to 0 on the 3rd cylinder and then it showed 0 on the 4th cylinder. It would go up, but not hold the pressure so we are pretty sure some is messed up with the compression gauge we are using.

 

[Zex4g63]

I'm just jumping in. Did the shop that rebuilt the head check the valve springs. Maybe you have a weak one. But since you had 0 compression one day and the next day you had good compression, it leads me to believe you have a lifter that is sticking. If it can't bleed off fast enough then it will stick wide open causing the valve to hang open. Of course letting it sit overnight causes it to bleed down. Swap lifters around to a different cylinder. Make sure to let them sit for awhile before starting the car. Several hours at the least. I only mention this because I had a dsm recently do this for me.

 

[jjbrasil]

sorry double post..

 

[jjbrasil]

yea that def could be possible. I think tomorrow i am going to grab my freinds compression guage to see what numbers i get with a different guage to see if mine is just messed up at all, i will update tomorrow with the compression results.

Also though what would explain the VERY lean plugs? i mean im not even boosting

Is thier any other ideas or things i should try tomorrow that anyone can think of?

 

[GTM]

...
I think tomorrow i am going to grab my freinds compression guage to see what numbers i get with a different guage to see if mine is just messed up at all, i will update tomorrow with the compression results.

Also though what would explain the VERY lean plugs? i mean im not even boosting

Is thier any other ideas or things i should try tomorrow that anyone can think of?

Is this the same gauge that I questioned over a week ago, the same one which indicated you had low compression and caused you do pull the head and do a valve job, the same one I'm gonna .... (censored).

I did question the valves hanging open some days back but that was based on compression readings and not hydraulic adjusters. Although it's remote if you have some spare adjusters you could swap those out with the most likely candidates. It is possible to pop the cam followers off, remove the adjusters, clean and reoil them without having to retime the cams. Did you report oil pressure drop when the "event" takes place? It most likely would be from RPM change but then if the adjuster(s) are leaking large amounts of oil this too could account for some of the mystry happenings.

One last item, did you ever verify you had the correct ECU?
Did you recheck the throttle body, position switch, and the BISS screw settings?

Cheers,
GTM

 

[jjbrasil]

I fired the car up today and it didnt want to run very good and now its consistantly sorta making that rod knocking noise that we heard at that clip Right b4 it runs bad.

I was able to borrow a well known working compression guage measured compression and this is what i got... 0 - 155 - 170 - 95 WTF 2 nights ago it read, 160 - 155 - 0 - 120 on my guage?? i dont understand how i can go from having compression to not having compression possibly my guage might not be SUPER accurate at this point but clearly it wouldnt be able to make 160 psi for cylinder 4 for me on my guage if it was messed up and now i have 0 psi with this other guage

I did a leak down test and i had mostly air come out of the throttle body for cylinder 4 barraly any out of the valve cover, and same for cylinder 1.

I have the the same ECU that i started with from the day i purchased the car, and the BISS screw setting was alright.

Even if the lifters were lets say collapsed and wernt holding any fluid how could this cause valves to stay open cuz then thier wouldnt be as much pressure on the rocker arm correct? im just trying to put everything together here that is logic and rule it out....and thanks everybody so far for all of your ideas and help

 

[jjbrasil]

ok so i went back outside fired her up and it started and ran good, no rod knock noise and so i let it idle until it hit operating temp compression was then.... 175 - 160 - 160 -120
First off now i have good compression in cylinder #4 but earlier i had 0?? I checked compression a few more times and the only cylinder changed was #1 and it went down to 90 psi!!!

So then i put all the plugs and stuff back on fire it up and rev it up till it starts running bad then i shut if off, compression then was 175 - 160 - 160 - 0 I then checked it all a few more times and Cylinder #1 went up to 60 but then no higher??

can the "shortblock" cause these symptoms or not really? cuz like i said timing is perfect? Crank walk cause this? im just trying to rule things out..thanks

 

[GTM]

...
Even if the lifters were lets say collapsed and wernt holding any fluid how could this cause valves to stay open cuz then thier wouldnt be as much pressure on the rocker arm correct? im just trying to put everything together here that is logic and rule it out....and thanks everybody so far for all of your ideas and help

I don't think we were talking collapsed, we were talking that maybe they were not adjusting correctly and instead of allowing clearance between the cam followers they are actually holding the valves open because they are extending too far. Now you have 0 on one and 95 on another. I'm getting so fed up with this compression gauger and maybe your buddies is screwed too, possible but not probable. I don't know your skill level, and I don't know how reliable your tools are but if the gauger is junk then spend the $20 and get new.

But by now I do have reason to believe you either have too much oil pressure at the adjusters or they are sticking open. Did you ever have water in your oil? Buy or borrow a set of adjusters and stick them in there AND/OR check the oil pressure on the gallery that feeds the adjustors.

You will have to wait till you have a failure, pull the valve cover, rotate engine until the lobes are up and check the clearance. I have no idea how long it takes to "cool down" and the problem to fix it's self so you have a time frame.

You don't have any options here, this is a must do _IF_ you are in fact getting 0 compression one moment and X hours later you have compression. This has been going on for 2 weeks and we are just running in circles. I've been talking valves and guides, you pull the head off don't say anything, get a valve grind and based on what... a faulty gauger.

Cheers,
GTM

 

[jjbrasil]

ill try and get ahold of some different lifters, but this compression guage that i borrowed is a Snap on compression tester and is def an "accurate tester" we used it on my buddys talon the other week

 

[dave99gst]

I went over and took a quick look at the car hoping it would be somthing really stupid and a extra set of eyes would be able to spot it. in the 10 min i spend in the driveay with no tools.. its seen like somthing electrical is messed up. ( prob sumthing really stupid to)
The car started and ran fine.... then after a few revs it started to stumble and miss REALLY bad. while it was running in this manor, i pulled the injector harness of the #2 ( i think thats the one i did ) injector with totaly NO CHANGE to how the car ran.
After shuting the car off for a few min, and re-starting it - it again ran fine untill it was rev'd multiple times.