SERIOUS HELP NEEDED!!...my car wont run on all 4 cylinders once reved even in neutral

[jjbrasil]

like the title says....my car has been like this for about 2 months now and i really need to get this fixed because i am unable to drive it ive tried just about everything and i really dont trust any shops around here to get it fixed.
But anyways.. im able to start up the car just fine and it will idle perfect and run just fine "warming up".....i can rev it up a little bit and everything is great....but just as soon as i rev the engine past 3.5rpm's and once the rev's drops it like goes into this almost :limp mode: and will spit, sputter and only run on 2 cylinders and will continue to run like this and if i do not feather the gas it will stall out, this also is not even driving and building any boost, its just sitting in nuetral. Im NOT getting CEL either!! the things i have checked and replaced are!
-Injector resistor pack
-02 sensor
-coolant temp sensor
-swapped a ecu
-swapped power transistor
-swapped maf sensor
-i Re-Timed the t-belt cuz it was off a tooth
-swapped crank angle sensor
-cas i tested and cleaned
-swapped different 450's and FPR
-compression is ok
-all sensors are plugged in
If anybody can help me out that would be so much of help!! thanks in advance

 

[Engineblow1]

Try unplugging the vaccum lines from the EGR valve. If the valve is getting stuck or has trash in it the car will sputter like it's misfiring.

 

[jjbrasil]

i dought thats the problem but its def worth a try..ill let u guys know how it goes tomorrow, any more ideas

 

[GTM]

like the title says....my car has been like this for about 2 months now and i really need to get this fixed because i am unable to drive it ive tried just about everything and i really dont trust any shops around here to get it fixed.
...

All of that an no mention of spark plugs or wires... That's my first thought.

Cheers,
GTM

 

[jjbrasil]

well the plugs and wires were about a month old but i figured what the heck and got new plugs just for the heck of it...it started up just fine but this time when it started to sputter and what not i noticed some wierd things...
-Boost guage was bouncing back from 4-2 in vacuum at idle when it was runnin on 2 cylinders
-i took cylinders 2 and 3 injector plugs off and didnt change a thing
-and what seems to be water comes spitting out my exhaust as soon as i start getting this 2 cylinder runnin...because i noticed cuz my garage door has this runny black stuff which looked to be carbon and water.....def not oil

im really stuck any help?

 

[suicidal2af]

well the plugs and wires were about a month old but i figured what the heck and got new plugs just for the heck of it...it started up just fine but this time when it started to sputter and what not i noticed some wierd things...
-Boost guage was bouncing back from 4-2 in vacuum at idle when it was runnin on 2 cylinders
-i took cylinders 2 and 3 injector plugs off and didnt change a thing
-and what seems to be water comes spitting out my exhaust as soon as i start getting this 2 cylinder runnin...because i noticed cuz my garage door has this runny black stuff which looked to be carbon and water.....def not oil

im really stuck any help?

Try doublechecking your sparkplug gaps.

 

[GTM]

...
-Boost guage was bouncing back from 4-2 in vacuum at idle when it was runnin on 2 cylinders
-i took cylinders 2 and 3 injector plugs off and didnt change a thing
-and what seems to be water comes spitting out my exhaust as soon as i start getting this 2 cylinder runnin...because i noticed cuz my garage door has this runny black stuff which looked to be carbon and water.....def not oil

im really stuck any help?

All the observations you made sound normal for what you are experiencing. The byproduct of combustion is 90% water which collects in the exhaust, once the other 2 cylrs were added it had enough pressure to force the collected water out. Once the exhaust is hot you don't have condensate... high altitude jet airplane con trail (condensate trail). Boost was affected by only 2 cylrs running.

Firing order 1,3,4,2 and you have fail on 3,2 which is one crank rotation. I'm thinking some part of the ECU is starting to fail. Check all harness connections related to injector harness. Dropping resistors??

Did you do a compression check after you set cams?

Ok on the spark plugs

Cheers,
GTM

 

[jjbrasil]

hey thanks GTM for all of the help so far....how would i go about checking the harness for damage?
Also i dont understand since i mean i swapped a different 95 ecu and it still did the same thing...also im not even building boost after i start misfiring...i dunno im still sort of confused. If u can give me some pointers or any other really helpfull info-tips that would be cool....i really feel im real close in getting this car fixed hopefully!!!

 

[jjbrasil]

i also forgot to mension...this all happened right after i changed the gasket between the turbo and exhaust manifold.
I put everything back together and now ive had this problem since. The car ran fine before i replaced the gasket.

 

[GTM]

i also forgot to mension...this all happened right after i changed the gasket between the turbo and exhaust manifold.
I put everything back together and now ive had this problem since. The car ran fine before i replaced the gasket.

If you have fuel injection on 2,3 as well as spark then what else is there, poor compression. I don't mean to be sending you in circles but you need to go back over some of this since that's the only thing that is not computing. What are the numbers?

You are not going to build boost running on 2 cylrs. I'm grasping at straws here.

Cheers,
GTM

 

[jjbrasil]

well about a month back i did compression and numbers were ok

I just did anouther compression test and now i think we might have found something...154, 90, 156, 170 that was a COLD motor by the way..ill have to wait until tomorrow to test while at operating temp

at this point it can be anything from, valves, hg, or even compression rings...i was plannin on buying a 6 bolt sooner or later..what would u suggest? i guess my best bet for now is to just pull the head and inspect everything

 

[GTM]

well about a month back i did compression and numbers were ok

I just did anouther compression test and now i think we might have found something...154, 90, 156, 170 that was a COLD motor by the way..ill have to wait until tomorrow to test while at operating temp

at this point it can be anything from, valves, hg, or even compression rings...i was plannin on buying a 6 bolt sooner or later..what would u suggest? i guess my best bet for now is to just pull the head and inspect everything

Well that's pretty damniing, doesn't quite explain #3 problems but I'll take it. That's too radical to not cause problems hot or cold.

Can you nurse this until you can buy and rebuild a 6 bolt or can you do a slam dunk on this while you shop and rebuild.

I can't make these decisions for you.

Cheers,
GTM

 

[jjbrasil]

compression test at operating temp was..... 166, 130, 164, 175 when i pulled spark plugs out cylinders 1 2 and 4 looked normal...but cylinder 3 was really black and fouled out

I can see that compression is low in cylinder 3 but it still doesnt make sence why it would cause my electrical to go hay wire...thiers just no point in ripping the head off if thats not the prob and then im stuck again after replacing the hg and still dont know what the problem is.

 

[EagleTalonRacer]

use SeaFoam, it works great put in the engine and in the gas tank, itll clear up any vaccum lines pretty powerful stuff

 

[GTM]

compression test at operating temp was..... 166, 130, 164, 175 when i pulled spark plugs out cylinders 1 2 and 4 looked normal...but cylinder 3 was really black and fouled out

I can see that compression is low in cylinder 3 but it still doesnt make sence why it would cause my electrical to go hay wire...thiers just no point in ripping the head off if thats not the prob and then im stuck again after replacing the hg and still dont know what the problem is.

Lets pedal backwards here. First, is this running on 2 cylrs as you have stated or does it just seem like it is because it has a loss of power. You reported when you pulled cylr 2&3 injector plugs off it made no difference.

From what I see at the moment #2 compression is below the 10% varience allowed, the normal procedure would be to squirt some oil in that cylr and take a compression check again. The reason for this it to help determine if it's rings/piston or valves.

You say #3 spark plug is sooted up or black as if it's running rich or misfiring. My normal procedure would be to either move the spark plug or substitute a new one. A tool which has fallen into disuse is a spark plug tester where you put the plug under shop air pressure and a has a spark. This simulates some of the conditions and through a viewing window you can see where the plug is arcing. I have seen plenty of plugs where the porcelain was cracked or damaged up inside the plug and would arc from there rather than the tip.

A scope might help you with this though it's not always certain. Next I would pull injectors 2&3 and CC them where you put a designated number of pulses to the injector while under proper pressure to establishe they are delivering the correct amount of fuel. You can also observe the spray pattern to determine if they are worn or dirty.

Other questions I would have would be to look where the EGR dumps into the manifold. I would spray with carb cleaner while the engine is running to see if there is a manifold gasket leak or other vacuum leaks. I would probably also do a block check which is fairly reliable though I got burned bad one time. Customer complained of coolant loss when they started up in the morning so I did the block check while they waited and found nothing. Next day again they stopped by after work and I went over the engine found no leaks did another block check and found nothing, this happened a 3rd time and again I found nothing though may have had to add a little water on occasion. But I said they had to leave the car overnight and I could check cold start which is when they complained water would be expelled from the overflow. Bingo, bigger than life this is like Old Faithful spewing water and air bubbles everwhere but within 2 minutes of running it stopped. And try as I might I could get no more positive results for a blown gasket once it was warm. I've probably done several hundred blown head gaskets and this was the only one that behaved this way.

If subsequent tests mentioned above yield nothing and what you report is accurate then I see little choice but to pull the head. I'm really at a loss and the only thing I see from what you have told me is the low compression on #2. If I were there I might have other ideas but they just are not coming to mind dealing in recycled electrons on this monitor. I'm happy to answer any questions for I always like a good run for my money but you need to double check some of the other results you reported as being good... I don't mean to doubt you, just things are not adding up.

Cheers,
GTM

 

[jjbrasil]

hey GTM...today i was able to get ahold of some NOID LIGHTS and this was the outcome

I started the car up let it idle a bit, reved it up to make it do the "limp mode" thing and it didnt even do it after reving it like 5-6 times!!!...so im like uhh ok.

I pulled it out of my driveway and drove about 300 feet and then pullin into the driveway it decides to do the "limp mode thing" after i got on it a little bit...but it pulled pretty hard!

So i quickly get out and stuck the noid light into cylinder 2 and 3 and boom....THE NOID LIGHT WAS STILL PULLSING LIKE IT SHOULD!!!!! I really think for some reason i might have some bad gas?

but i took the basics of needing Fuel which i have, spark which i have, and only thing left is compression...i did anouther check for the heck of it and now im getting 110psi in the cylinder that was low before and also that cylinder was the cylinder with the fouled out plug so i put a tiny bit of oil down into the cylinder and my compression only went up to 115psi which means rings are ok

I know i def need to pull the head but i for some reason think thiers more to this problem??

 

[GTM]

hey GTM...today i was able to get ahold of some NOID LIGHTS and this was the outcome
...
I really think for some reason i might have some bad gas?

but i took the basics of needing Fuel which i have, spark which i have, and only thing left is compression...i did anouther check for the heck of it and now im getting 110psi in the cylinder that was low before and also that cylinder was the cylinder with the fouled out plug so i put a tiny bit of oil down into the cylinder and my compression only went up to 115psi which means rings are ok

I know i def need to pull the head but i for some reason think thiers more to this problem??

Oh good, so we can rule that out. As for bad gas forget it, wouldn't keep singling out these 2 cylrs forever. You don't mention stuffing another spark plug on 3... am I talking to myself here.

Block check for blown head gasket????, just for the heck of it when was the last time you re-torqued the head??? I think you have something going on between 2&3 but can't put my finger on it, could be early stage of blown head gasket.

Cheers,
GTM

 

[jjbrasil]

well the plugs and wires were about a month old but i figured what the heck and got new plugs just for the heck of it...it started up just fine but this time when it started to sputter and what not i noticed some wierd things...

I went out and bought new plugs remember it was Fouled out.... in that cylinder which is low on compression after having the car run for like 10min at idle.

How would i block check for HG? i was thinkin of doing a leak down test tomorrow and see what happens.

I havnt touched the cylinder head or bolts ever since ive had the car which has been for maybe 6 months. but yea i noticed that the compression has lowered a number of times since ive done the check which is wierd? maybe the hg is getting worse?

Tomorrow im gonna do a leak down test and then i figure i have to pull the head off anyways cuz of the compression being so low in that cylinder and needs repair. Ill def update tomorrow on what the leak down test turned out to be

 

[GTM]

I went out and bought new plugs remember it was Fouled out.... in that cylinder which is low on compression after having the car run for like 10min at idle.

How would i block check for HG? i was thinkin of doing a leak down test tomorrow and see what happens.

I havnt touched the cylinder head or bolts ever since ive had the car which has been for maybe 6 months. but yea i noticed that the compression has lowered a number of times since ive done the check which is wierd? maybe the hg is getting worse?
...

But you did the compression ck, should have moved it to #1 to see if it cleaned up.

You need a tool to do the block check, the new ones are electronic and I've never used one. The old style which you might be able to rent is a clear plastic cylinder which has what acts like an air stone in a fish tank and makes lots of small bubbles. At the top is a squeeze bulb with check valves. You put the chemical dye solution (phenol blue??) in the cylinder, take the radiator cap off and start the car. Any gases escaping into the cooling system will be sucked up into the cylinder and bubbled through the dye which is dark blue. If there are combustion gases present the blue turns to sea green and then urin yellow.

Yeow, might check how often you chould check the head torque in the owners manual. You spend more time taking the valve cover off and on to break them loose (1/4-1/2 turn) and retorque. It can do NO harm and it might improve things.

Cheers,
GTM

 

[T is for TURBO]

Im by no means a mechanic, But as GTM said, re-torque the head... As you said earlier, the motor was rebuilt... Who ever rebuilt it may have used an extention to torque the heads, and when using an extention to torque something, the extention will absorb some of the torque pressure causeing the bolts to be less then spec torque (in short, the extention twists alittle bit)
I don't know if it would be enough to make a difference, but I thought I'd throw in my .02. Just tryin to help
hope you get your problem resolved
best of luck
-shawn

 

[jjbrasil]

ok so i ripped the head off went out and purchase a new Coil pack, New Cam angle sensor and also i pulled the cylinder head becuase of the low compression. the valves were wore bad so i got a head job done. and bought all new gaskets.

I get everything back together, used arp's etc start the car up today runs awsome when it fires up, the vacumm was were it should be now at 18 instead of 11ish b4 i pulled the head off and i basically just let it idle for a while to ;make sure everything was ok.

I then put it to the test and rev it up...WELL, the problem still occurs WTF and im very very frustrated and out of ideas?? ive changed like everything on this stupid car and i dont know what to do??

GTM can u possibly think of any ideas to give or anybody that can think of somethin!..i like want to sell this stupid car but i cant afford to loose out cuz it wont be worth much like this

 

[GTM]

...
WELL, the problem still occurs WTF and im very very frustrated and out of ideas?? ive changed like everything on this stupid car and i dont know what to do??

GTM can u possibly think of any ideas to give or anybody that can think of somethin!..i like want to sell this stupid car but i cant afford to loose out cuz it wont be worth much like this

Something is wrong you and others are missing. You didn't mention if you had done the tensioners correctly. You also didn't mention if you had rotated the cams by hand _without_ the cam followers in place but properly torqued.

Has the head warped and been machined?

Have the valve guides been replaced? If so with what material?

You need to check the cams for being straight and not bent, they must turn in the head.

Wish you had said something before you started putting it together for we could have done 20 questions. I had a problem like this with a VW 35 years ago that someone had used steel guides in an air cooled engine, when hot the guides would fall down then pistons would hit valves which couldn't close properly.

I'm not there, I don't know your skill level.

Are the balance shafts still in there? Do they turn freely? Replacing the head might solve it, but if there is something else seizing up in the cogged belt drive then it's just going to happen again. You probably can save the head gasket if you didn't put compound on it.

Cheers,
GTM

 

[jjbrasil]

alrighty to give u a little info of help ill let u konw what i did.

-if by tensioners u mean the hydrolic tensioner yea i did the timing belt correctly, everything was PERFECTLY lined up.

also the cams looked ok, the head WAS machined when i took the head to have the service done on the head. I also checked to make sure the block was not warped, which it was not warped.

the valve guides were replaced but im not sure what material was used. {this shop did a 46g3 cylinder head for me in the past and everything was perfect} the cams also are not bent they turn perfectly and i had them checked out just ot make sure.

I rotated the crank by hand a lot of times and still after rotating it everything still all lined back up. the balance shafts also spun freely nothing seemed seized up at all. i used a felpro hg so this one is not going to be re-usable.

I think it is a fuel delivery problem honestly and i really want to get ahold of a fuel pressure guage to see what sorta fp im getting. Could a bad fuel pump cause this? like i was saying the car was running "idling" better then it did b4 i pulled the head and it ran perfect until i reved it up.

BUT i noticed...after it went into this "limp mode" i let it sit for like 15 min. went out started it, it started up but then all of the sudden it would just either sputter fast and then die or just sorta stall out, it really wouldnt run for long sorta like it wasnt getting much gas....like i was saying i think i might have a fuel delivery issue but im not 100% sure at this point cuz its a dsm.. im going to pull the plugs and see if thier fowled or more on the leaner side and ill let u know as soon as i get time to do that.

 

[GTM]

I then put it to the test and rev it up...WELL, the problem still occurs and im very very frustrated and out of ideas?? ive changed like everything on this stupid car and i dont know what to do??
................
alrighty to give u a little info of help ill let u konw what i did.

Woah.......

Are you saying it's running poorly BUT DID NOT BEND VALVES _AGAIN_??????

I don't intend to be mean or insult you language skills but I understood "still occurs" to mean it bent valves again. Lets make sure we understand so we can be on the same wavelength.

Cheers,
GTM

 

[jjbrasil]

The valves were never bent in the first place...the valves were just worn and cracked in that cylinder with the low compression, everything is fine and thier are no bent valves.

Im just saying the car runs EXACTLY the way it did or has the same Problem it had from the start of this post...only it does run cleaner at idle and i have better vac. at idle.

I will be doing anouther compression test on it and i will report back with those numbers.