Running Out of Fuel on 550's?

[TheHater]

FP is cool but not cost effcient, a new garret is 550 and a 50 trim green is 1375. Its for the lazy, not for the true performers.

Its a bolt on that has runs 10's. How is that not a good deal?

 

[ItsStockOfficer]

Originally posted by TheHater


Its a bolt on that has runs 10's. How is that not a good deal?

Didn't say it was a bad deal but you can get a better turbo for a cheaper price, 50 trim with a real garret wheel. Better manifold...etc.

Sean

 

[RipperXX]

ok since I dont feel like reading all these posts i just have a question. do you have something like an Air Fuel Ratio Gauge? If not I would get one first.. you can get one from http://www.extrememotorsports.com/g1cat/afgauge.htm for $50 you can find out if your engine realy is runing out of fuel or not.. if not I would see if the cars computer is cuting your fuel as I know if you have not done some mods to the cars comp it will cut fuel when the engine reaches a certen "line" and the computer thinks this is unsafe for the engine. (although it's far from it)

 

[ItsStockOfficer]

Originally posted by RipperXX
ok since I dont feel like reading all these posts i just have a question. do you have something like an Air Fuel Ratio Gauge? If not I would get one first.. you can get one from http://www.extrememotorsports.com/g1cat/afgauge.htm for $50 you can find out if your engine realy is runing out of fuel or not.. if not I would see if the cars computer is cuting your fuel as I know if you have not done some mods to the cars comp it will cut fuel when the engine reaches a certen "line" and the computer thinks this is unsafe for the engine. (although it's far from it)

Your a dummy in so many ways...

 

[LandoAWD]

Easy on the nOOb..

 

[ItsStockOfficer]

haha, that WAS easy! =)

Sean

 

[RipperXX]

Well sorry I am still learning but I thought the computer might just be cuting his fuel... guess I will just read from now on and ask questions...

 

[AMS]

On our dyno with many different setup and engine manegment systems we max out 550's right around the 390whp mark. This is with stock base fuel pressure. I've taken 510's to 330whp (on a small 16g) and still had some room, I'd guess maybe 350whp. If your dumping raw gas out your tailpipe and tuning for 10:1 A/F then yes you will be maxing out your injectors at lower HP levels but that doesn't mean you need to go bigger, just get the fuel tuned correctly. I seriously doubt many of you are maxing out( or should I say using the full potential) of your 550's on 16g's unless something else is wrong.

Martin

 

[ItsStockOfficer]

Im going to assume you mean stock base fuel pressure on a 1g? Are we talking 390 whp on race gas or pump gas? I ran a 12.6@113 on 510's in a 1g awd lightned about 130lbs...Thats on 110 octane. on 91 octane you need 660's or bigger to have any fun.

Sean

 

[Kevin Jewer]

I just read through this thread, and I have the worlds biggest headache right now... Just want to add a few points.

You can read over 100% duty cycle on injectors. I have logged it on both my pocketlogger and my DSMlink. Doesnt mean the injectors are flowing more than 100% of capacity, it means the ECU is trying to hold them open that long. On my 50 trim junk hybrid () I had my 550s to 117% duty cycle on pump gas at 20 psi, leaned out to the proper AF ratio (~12 to 1). Now at 22 psi, my 660s are at 85-90%. Race gas is ~80%. As I get over 40 lbs/min, I will get even closer to the limits on pump.

I have seen 550s run 11.3 on race gas/20g. Its not uncommon. But for pump its better to have more. If you use both fuels though your up shit's creek. With 7xx injectors, good luck leaning out enough on race gas with an AFC...

As far as hybrid turbos, I think the newly available turbine housing that let you run a full garret turbo on a mitsu manifold/o2 are going to change things a bit in the future. Thats as close to all garret as we'll get without a major investment, and full mitsu is still an option too. Hybrids may fall by the wayside if they truly dont stand up to "thouroughbred" turbos... Only time will tell. In the meantime I am extremely pleased wiht my M50.

 

[ItsStockOfficer]

well, your definitley right about 550's haveing gone far on race gas but even then Im positive they were maxing them out and running crazy high fuel pressure, I maxed mine out on 110 octane trapping 119 mph. Its just better to have more fuel available.

As for not being able to get lean enough, On a 1g its cake. The 2g MAS makes up aroun 20% leaner to begin with and then we end up between -24 and -10 on an afc. With a VPC its easy too. @g's can have problems though.

As far as hybrid turbos, I think the newly available turbine housing that let you run a full garret turbo on a mitsu manifold/o2 are going to change things a bit in the future. Thats as close to all garret as we'll get without a major investment, and full mitsu is still an option too. Hybrids may fall by the wayside if they truly dont stand up to "thouroughbred" turbos... Only time will tell. In the meantime I am extremely pleased wiht my M50.

This I don't understand.YOu can get a Garret Manifold for 475 or 450, a full Garret is running 550-620....oils lines are 2bucks and a new o2 housing is 10 to 100 dollars depending on whether you make it your self or buy it. So Max for a true garret 50 trim is around 1200 dollars with everything you need, and tyhen you have a better flowing manifold. The green is 1375 with the need for an external so you get a hybrid turbo for 200 dollars more with a stock manifold.

With that said, PTE turbos look amazing.

 

[Kevin Jewer]

You can get garret turbos with the PTE hosuing for less than 1000 bucks, they bolt right on, and the stock O2 hosuing (or the turbular one you already upgraded to, etc) all work. I like this option the most.

Good point about the 2g mas on the 1g car. I tend to always think interms of POS 2Gs

 

[AMS]

Originally posted by ItsStockOfficer
Im going to assume you mean stock base fuel pressure on a 1g? Are we talking 390 whp on race gas or pump gas? I ran a 12.6@113 on 510's in a 1g awd lightned about 130lbs...Thats on 110 octane. on 91 octane you need 660's or bigger to have any fun.

Sean

Yup, stock FP and 100 octane gas. The new PTE mitsu turbo's are pretty nice, I've been doing a little dyno testing and also have a car running on the street with one ( www.automotosports.com/2003_1st_kill.mpg ) using the internal wastegate.

Martin

 

[ItsStockOfficer]

Yeah, The thing is the internal gate. I know their proving to make power on them but a turbo with a turbine housing with no provision for an internal spools much better. Even my 4 bolt 60-1 spools noticeably better then a bastard flanged 5 bolt 60-1. add that to the fact that a externally gated car spools better anyways and it seems like to much of a sacrifice. Gonna make me a custom turbine housing, make mine perfectly smooth and #### that internal shit =)

Sean

 

[umiami80]

ok since I dont feel like reading all these posts i just have a question. do you have something like an Air Fuel Ratio Gauge? If not I would get one first.. you can get one from http://www.extrememotorsports.com/g1cat/afgauge.htm for $50 you can find out if your engine realy is runing out of fuel or not.. if not I would see if the cars computer is cuting your fuel as I know if you have not done some mods to the cars comp it will cut fuel when the engine reaches a certen "line" and the computer thinks this is unsafe for the engine. (although it's far from it)

HAd one for a While now, it was completely lit up until I hit WOT, my 02 was bad, replaced it, and now everything was good.


I ahve an internally gatted Muut, works great, the more boost you run, the less "Gate" you need.


I bought a Buschur racing SX Adjustable FPR, made tuning easier then ever, can runs great and the clutch can't hold it, not that it is going, just can't hold it and will be dead soon the way I drive it.

 

[GalantVR41062]

Originally posted by dyezak


What do I think? Well, I'm just going to call you out..but I'll do it nicely .

First off I would be increasing my base fuel pressure to combat the fuel cut since I am maxing out my injectors. And if any tuner is sooo goood, they would do this for you so you won't run lean and blow your engine. I would try 50psi base setting.

Secondly, what are you using to log your engine? I'd like to know what kind of cracked out datalogger shows 116% duty cycles. An injector can only go 100%...that's it...no more...zilch...nada...zippo. At this point the injector is called "static". Which means that the injector no longer has a "pulse width"...it is continuously open and is just letting fuel run through. It can't open any further than that. That's like saying you have 116% throttle angle...it just can't happen.

Also, your turbo is for 360hp MAX...not 400 (www.dsm-performance.com). When it says MAX it means ported head, cams, standalone, MAP instead of MAF, FMIC bigger than that small greddy of yours, something better than a "ported o2 housing", sheetmetal intake mani, and a hope and a prayer (on top of all your current mods). I'd bet your putting something like 280hp down...300 if you're lucky. I'd also bet you are tuning too rich (most common affliction of the DSM tuner).

My advice, get a logger, see what you are actually running (duty cycles), use a wide band and tune your car in nicely.

in defense of the mutt 1
307whp, 20psi pump gas. 120 compression across the board, massive amounts of intake leaks.
Also huge bov leak that didn't allow over 24psi on c-16 (so many vacumm leaks when we took it home the compressor was cranked to over 90 to get the system to 25). that yielded 337whp.
All done on a stock motor. So that 360whp 'max' i believe, is a suggested maximum for most applications.

 

[umiami80]

120 compression across the board,

You need a New motor buddy, unless you did that Test at like 8000 Feet.


My car is getting a tranny rebuilt right now, but I will tune after that.


Remember, I have an ETE-12, not an ETA which have smaler compressor housings and rated at only 360WHP. My turbo is ratted at 400WHP and flows either 39 Pounds a min or 40 Pounds a min.

####er pulls but is hard to tune in 100% humidity, runs perfect at night at about 70Degrees.

My 550's have PLENTY of fuel, the are Bll and plate and can run a sustained duty cycle of about 90% (RC and other pintel style run only 80% before their sprya pattern gets fuct.)

So I actually have injectors capable of 618.75 of maximum fuel pressure. On a ported head and 275's, I will be right at the edge of what the turbo can provvide with my 550's.


To the Hater, your a MORON, my Mutt will EAT up 16G's with similar mods and tuning, flows WAY more and makes more power, my turbo I THINK is rated at 650 CFMS at 15psi, the ETA-12 is rated at 600 CFM's at 15psi.

My luck I guess for getting a batch of only 500 made By David Hall before teh company was baught out, I do not trust the newer guys and their quality, we will see.

 

[ItsStockOfficer]

, ok, we'll wait to see some slips

If you can't max out 550's on pump gas, your cars slow, period. I've seen 16's do it at 44 psi base so I HOPE you can.

 

[umiami80]

Are you talking to me? I am at about -15 to -10 accross the board on my DSM performance 550's (which are really 618.75 at 90% duty cycle) so you see I CAN"T max them out with my turbo. On race gas and 30 PSI, maybe.


Again the record for my Turbo and Injectors on a STOCK 2G head and crap web Bump sticks is high 11's, not bad, I am sure more tuning, a PMS ( A SAFC WAS USED) and a ported head would do wonders as we know HOW crappy the 2G head and manifold is.


I dunno about tha GVR4 as well, it has 120 compression, which is FINE at like 8000 feet, but he is in MN, anthing below 120 Compression and it is time for a rebuild.


I like my turbo, hands plenty of V8's (LS1 included) their asses.


I have my base FP set at 43.5 exactly, Again I will add more boost and fuel but it i shard to get it exact with thios Miami weather of 100 during teh day and 70 at night which just fuct swith the car. I does need a tune, I will post my AFC settings on tuesday and my cars progress, she is in surgery now.

 

[ItsStockOfficer]

I really don't care what people with what hook ups can do, Id like to see what You can do, or a regular person. People have run 12 flats on 14b's with stock cams. Its what the average tuner can do that matter, i think your gonna get annoyed at what it shows at the track.

 

[umiami80]

I doubt it, I have pulled 20G's before, maybe they need to talk to you because you seem to know everything and have to get the last word in.


Not only do I work on my car, I beling to a club and have meny people who may (GASP AT THE THOUGH) have more knowledge then you. My turbo flows FINE, spools fast, and pulls crazy to spin all 4 wheels in 2nd gear. Again Tuning for topend is a little tought due to the extreme heat but at night it runs great. You just gotta get that "I know everything and I'll hate anyone who thinks different then me and then troll a post until everyone can hear my oh-so right expressions".


Again you have an opinion, you ssay I will be unhappy, well I am really happy now, do pull on cars that shoudl beat me, Like your old 20G;

14B at 12 flat, any Nitrous involved? Fully stripped race car?


AS far as making Big power on pump gas my turbo rocks, so much so it destroyed my tranny, that and I wanted a stronger clutch/flywheel, bigger 1st gear and it stopped going into 4th, it will all be rebuilt soon so after that I will tune at night, and we will see, untuned and RICH as heel my car pulls like a mutha, I could only immagine how fast it would be if you were under my hood:laugh: .

 

[ItsStockOfficer]

Originally posted by umiami80
I doubt it, I have pulled 20G's before, maybe they need to talk to you because you seem to know everything and have to get the last word in.


Not only do I work on my car, I beling to a club and have meny people who may (GASP AT THE THOUGH) have more knowledge then you. My turbo flows FINE, spools fast, and pulls crazy to spin all 4 wheels in 2nd gear. Again Tuning for topend is a little tought due to the extreme heat but at night it runs great. You just gotta get that "I know everything and I'll hate anyone who thinks different then me and then troll a post until everyone can hear my oh-so right expressions".


Again you have an opinion, you ssay I will be unhappy, well I am really happy now, do pull on cars that shoudl beat me, Like your old 20G;

14B at 12 flat, any Nitrous involved? Fully stripped race car?


AS far as making Big power on pump gas my turbo rocks, so much so it destroyed my tranny, that and I wanted a stronger clutch/flywheel, bigger 1st gear and it stopped going into 4th, it will all be rebuilt soon so after that I will tune at night, and we will see, untuned and RICH as heel my car pulls like a mutha, I could only immagine how fast it would be if you were under my hood:laugh: .

I don't think breaking trannys is any proof of a powerful DSM, I broke 3 in 5 weeks earlier this year. As your you pulling on cars with 20g's, i see plenty of 16g cars pull 20g's, or people with 16g's who upgrade and are slower, shit happens, get some numbers or shut up.

 

[umiami80]

What for? I don't owe you shit. You act like your all high and Mighty and your opinion is the law. Your Opinion = shit. YEAH breaking trannys could be from MANY things, but spinning ALL 4 WHEELS in 2nd gear may have something to do do with it, you know having traction problems with an AWD, you know you are making some power, I also know these when I shreded my Spyder gears in my Center Diff and had a RWD DSM for a week. This turbo makes power and you simply choosing not to believe it doesn't make it true, get over yourself.


Why not post some of your new times? I wana see what your new turbo can do. My turbo Flows, and you can count on that, you don't speak from experience with Mutts and untill you do, STFU and don't act like what you are saying is Fact, it is only your opinion, which may be all powerful in your opinion, but is shit in my thread.

My boy in a 1G Talon pulled a 60 trim in his level three, both cars were running pump gas though. He has 2G pistons on BIG rods in a 6-bolt, close race but it shouldn't have been. He is the president of Miami Club DSM, you can search for our website if you wish.

Again I know all perfromance is done with tuning, And tuning I will be doing in 2 days when I get my car back, and I post my settings, boost, spoolup, engine timing, the works.

Until then I guess you can whore my thread with unfounded falsehoods and your raging opinion. I also know that you cannot resist and have to post to show everyone how right you are.


Your turn sir.

 

[ItsStockOfficer]

OK, My turn

We can all spin through 2nd, I spin through 2nd from a punch without shifting.

Get times, no one cares what you say, you broke a notoriously weak center diff sweet.

My last track pass was tuned for 2 bar, ran 1.5, 2.3 60 ft, high 90s 1/8 mile, 12.3 at 116 letting off, The said they'll kick me out if run 11's again, ruh roh.

Look, Im not even insulting you, just telling you that spinning, and brealing and beating cars means nothing, only solid numbers mean shit.

 

[umiami80]

VEry true, very ture, but you also keep stating that Mutts are shit and I will be dissapointed with them and then proceeded to argue with me. This thread is about running out of fuel with 550's. I know you can run out of fuel if you tune the hell out of a BIG 16G, my turbo flows about 100 CFM's more then a BIG 16G, but then my injectors flow 618.75 at 90% duty cycle< i am also no where near that.

So My guess with good weather and about 21PSI of boost I will have negative 10 accross the board, possible -8 at 7000+ and pull like crazy.

Again this is about fule tuning, so I will post my fuel trims, my TIMING, my EGT's with my new TRE EGT Probe, and my boost, I will also post my spoolup time.


Other then this, this is all what should be discussed in this thread, not how bad mutts suck in your opinion, not having to prove shit to you oresle it is deemd BULLSHIT by your opinion poll. Nothing but fuel tuning, post something on that.