Replaced head, 43 knock count when I tap gas

[Psycron]

What could be causing this? I did the timing belt, it was off a tooth a couple of times but I fixed it, the car idles perfect. The head seems a little loud, loud enough that it isn't lifter tick (not a *tick*tick*tick, more like *clack*clack*clack). When I accelerate with more then 2-3psi I hear the turbo spool but the engine retards timing, all while my logger is showing 43 counts of knock even while cruising. The RPMs increase but the engine doesn't feel strong. I didn't have problems at all before the head swap, now it sounds crappy and won't boost without retarding timing. I give her any gas other than idle and I see knock. Should I just get a rebuilt head from a reputable shop? Went to eBay and found a head that was practically brand new, everything looked great. I don't understand why my car is acting like this. I had a half tank of gas in it sitting there for 2 months, would that make any difference? I'm so bummed after all the work it's not running good at all.

 

[SpoolnTsi]

Sounds like you got a bad case of phantom knock. What do you know bout the head?? Was it rebuilt? Need some more detail on the head. If it was rebuilt, it will be noisy at first until you get some miles on it and it will be more than enough to cause phantom knock

 

[Psycron]

The product description from eBay:

"This auction is for one cylinder head assembly as removed from a 1992 Eagle Talon TSI Turbo All wheel drive. This head was just rebuilt and installed at the local Mitsubishi dealership onto a car that was then side -swiped only 350 miles later. The car was exceptionally clean and only had 67,000 original miles on it. The car did run and drive perfectly. This head will fit 1st generation Eclipses, Talons and Lasers, as well as 2nd generation models of the same with modifications (great combination!) -- be sure to research and compare this part to your needs prior to bidding. It is obvious by looking at the cylinder head that new parts were used. There are paint marks, index marks, etc... still evident. Obviously there are no cracks, and all threads and studs are perfect. "

The description is very accurate - everything looked very new. So new heads are noisy? This thing makes enough racket you can hear it echo off the houses on residential blocks. It must be phantom knock because there's no way to get 43 counts of knock at 1500 RPM! I was thinking of using some Lucas Oil Stabilizer to quiet them down to see if that helps. I pulled the test plug, grounded it with a wire and set base timing at 5*- it should be running great for all that I've done. Ah well...any idea on how long it takes to run smoothly? I might try the washer mod as well to see if it takes away some of the sensitivity. I never even moved the knock sensor when doing all the work. Thanks so much for your help bro.

 

[SpoolnTsi]

Yea freshly rebuilt heads are noisy. They need broke in. Kinda like a motor but with alot more noise. 350 miles tho? Should have been broke in by now IMO but i guess it could take longer. Mine broke in in about half an hour of city driving. This question may seem odd to you but what kinda oil do you use???

 

[Psycron]

I'm currently using Quaker State High Mileage Oil, same as before. I didn't think it would make that much difference, but maybe it does. This head is just much louder and I'm used to having a quiet DSM

unfortunately the noise seems to be affecting the performance, though

my car has 128k miles on it right now. Oh yeah, when it knocks the timing doesn't seem to be pulled until I give her more gas than it retards timing- Car feels like it wants to go but is being held back.

 

[RoasT BeeF]

This could be two things. I have had experience with both.

The only way it could be the head itself is if whoever rebuilt the head bled down all the lifters. In this case all the lifters should fill back up after running the engine for a good amount of time. For me it was about a half hour to 45 minutes at idle before they all pumped up and the sound was gone.

Another possiblity since you describe a clank clank sound is that the timing is off at least a tooth. Kinda sounds like a diesel? Yeah the timing is off. I have had that happen twice. Re-time it again.

 

[Psycron]

Well Roast Beef the first couple of times I did the belt I put the car back together, car was running as you described. It was chugging and would sound like it wanted to die, the ECU was compensating and keeping it running. After that I re-did the timing belt, this time making sure ALL the timing marks are aligned. First off checked the cam timing marks, they are perfect (maybe .5mm off or less but they look like they're perfectly aligned) and the crank/oil pump/silent shaft marks are aligned as well. Maybe I did screw something up? I was very careful because I didn't want to take the whole fawkin thing apart again. I prey I don't need to do it a 4th time.

The car idles smooth now, not like there's some kind of issue with the timing - it sounds totally different than when it was off 1 tooth. Argh. I'm thinking of buying a head from FFWD Connection and selling this mofo on ebay or something. I hope someone can chime in with more ideas.

 

[RoasT BeeF]

How long did you run the car since you have had the head on? The only other thing I can think of is if suddenly your cas went bad. I know there is a way to check it but I dont have the service manual in front of me right now so I cant tell you off the top of my head. If you dont have one or cant find it online somehow let me know and when I get home tonight I will look in the manual and let you know. Either that or if you or one of your dsm buddies has a good working cas you can swap in real fast that would work too. If its not that it has to be something internal with the head. Maybe you should pull it off and take it to a good machine shop and have it checked out. Either way that belt will have to come off again.

Let us know what you find.

 

[Psycron]

Damnit I think I know why this is happening...when I did the t-belt I rolled the intake cam forward slightly to make the belt notches line up correctly with the sprocket teeth. I had a problem with rolling the exhaust cam one tooth then aligning the crank; that might have something to do with my car not running quite right despite the fact all timing marks are perfectly aligned. What do you guys think, am I taking this mofo apart again? That's what it looks like...a few more hours to get the pulley, power steering/alternator pulley and ac tensioner bracket, engine mount and timing cover off. Argh!!! Someone let me know if there's a quicker way to do this...although I suspect there isn't. One more question: for those who've done their timing belts- was your crank 1/4 tooth off and which direction (clockwise or counterclockwise) when you did the job? I read that somewhere in another thread but the person said their car ran fine. I know there's a little play in the crank before the pistons will move, which is why I ask. When the exhaust cam is off a tooth prior to tensioning the belt I have a problem with the balance belt and crank lining up which is why I made the mistake. Thanks again Roast Beef.

 

[SpoolnTsi]

I really dont see the timing being a factor here but dont take my word for it either. But i cant see the timing being off slightly without having a rough idle. And i also dont think your cam sensor is bad either because the car wouldnt run if it was. The cam sensor controls the fuel and ignition timing. If it was bad you wouldnt have spark or fuel or even both. But you could have installed it wrong. May be 180* out. Theres timing marks on it just as there are when doing a timing belt. They need to be lined up properly. Not sure bout the type of oil your using either. Granted every car will react differently but my car hated that kind of oil. The lifters were noisy as hell. Sounded like a diesel. Most people will tell you that mobile1 and castrol is the best. I cant say anything bad about either of them but honestly, mobile1 synthetic is the best for my car. I could tell the difference as soon as i switched. The car performed alot better and alot more quiet. Best of luck to ya. Keep up informed

 

[RoasT BeeF]

A bad cas can have these type of symptoms where the car retards a rediculous amount of timing at low RPM's. I have read several cases on here. Just because the cas is bad doesnt mean the car wont run. And yes there is a mark to be lined up on the cas. If you DO NOT line up that mark the car WONT start. So I am pretty sure he doesnt have it 180 out.

About the timing. Like I said, I have had my car off by a tooth a couple times back when I was first learning how to do a t-belt. The idle was not rough at all, and it did clank as Psycron is describing. So just because the timing is off a tooth does not mean the engine is going to idle rough everytime.

 

[SpoolnTsi]

A bad cas can have these type of symptoms where the car retards a rediculous amount of timing at low RPM's. I have read several cases on here. Just because the cas is bad doesnt mean the car wont run.

Agreed, i never said it couldnt but i have yet to see that happen, and yes i believe its possible. I still dont think thats his problem. Just my opinion.

And yes there is a mark to be lined up on the cas. If you DO NOT line up that mark the car WONT start. So I am pretty sure he doesnt have it 180 out.

Wrong, go out and try it and then say this. Still drivable. Wont make much boost if any.

About the timing. Like I said, I have had my car off by a tooth a couple times back when I was first learning how to do a t-belt. The idle was not rough at all, and it did clank as Psycron is describing. So just because the timing is off a tooth does not mean the engine is going to idle rough everytime.

I take that back with what i said earlier in my previous post. That depends on how far it is off

 

[Psycron]

Well, I tore the car apart again last night...finished around 2am, car runs and drives ALMOST perfect. When I did the timing again I rotated the exhaust cam clockwise and the intake cam counter-clockwise until they lined up on the plane (checked it with a straight-edge ruler) then proceeded to roll the exhaust cam roughly 1/2 a tooth off. Afterward I put the belt around the idler pulley, silent shaft sprocket, crank sprocket and finally the tensioner pulley then put the timing belt cover on with the crank pulley to ensure I was still at #1 TDC. Tensioned everything down, rotated 6 revolutions but I think the belt was already stretched as far as it would go (the only good thing to come of doing this job multiple times ). Cam timing marks were roughly less than 1/4 tooth off and look as perfect as I could possibly get them. Put everything back together, adjusted base timing with the logger to get it around 8-10 degrees at idle (since the ECU adjusts it to around there anyway after you ground out the plug and set to 5*) and took it for a spin. When I say ALMOST perfect I mean the car seems to pull a little bit of timing and sees a small amount of knock but nowhere near what it was before; at times it feels like the car isn't accelerating faster when I apply more boost (above 7 psi).

I'm thinking of some possible reasons for this:

a) engine is a little noisy and the knock sensor is picking up the sounds

b) midgrade fuel has been sitting in the tank for about 2 months now

c) better quality oil and maybe some stabilizer is needed to quiet the head down a little

d) new fuel filter, some octane booster and premium gas are needed.

other than that I'm pretty happy..the car is running a hundred times better. Thank you for all the suggestions- I think I'm highly qualified to change a timing belt now

 

[RoasT BeeF]

Cool so it was the timing then? Glad to hear you got it done right. I would deff get some new fuel in there for one thing. When you say you arent getting much knock...how much are you showing on the logger?

..Wrong, go out and try it and then say this. Still drivable. Wont make much boost if any...

The cas determines the firing order. If it is 180* out the firing order will be reversed. I dont see how the car can even start.

 

[SpoolnTsi]

Put everything back together, adjusted base timing with the logger to get it around 8-10 degrees at idle (since the ECU adjusts it to around there anyway after you ground out the plug and set to 5*) and took it for a spin.

Your not suppost to adjust the base timing that way. Never use the logger when adjusting your base timing. The ECU thinks your only setting the idle if you have the logger hooked up while your adjusting the timing

http://www.pocketlogger.com/index.php?pid=faq_dsm_effects

 

[SpoolnTsi]

The cas determines the firing order. If it is 180* out the firing order will be reversed. I dont see how the car can even start.

Its does and its still very drivable, you just wont build any boost. You may build a few pounds but it wont be much

 

[Psycron]

Cool so it was the timing then? Glad to hear you got it done right. I would deff get some new fuel in there for one thing. When you say you arent getting much knock...how much are you showing on the logger?

Knock count was around 22-25 at 18% TPS and 21*-23* of timing. it only lasted a few seconds. What I wonder about is why the engine doesn't knock but timing goes down as I accelerate. There are a few instances of knock like I described but it doesn't seem to attribute directly to increased throttle/boost. I think the gas is just shitty from sitting there for so long, or as SpoolnTsi suggests, my timing.

 

[Psycron]

Your not supposed to adjust the base timing that way. Never use the logger when adjusting your base timing. The ECU thinks your only setting the idle if you have the logger hooked up while your adjusting the timing

http://www.pocketlogger.com/index.php?pid=faq_dsm_effects

I know but I needed a quick fix because it wasn't even adjusted. At 2am I just wanted to get it roughly in the ballpark - I'll do it properly when I get home.

 

[SpoolnTsi]

Well, id run the car until the tank was almost empty, then fill it with the highest grade you can get out there. Then adjust your timing properly and then see how the vehicle runs. It still kinda seems like your getting phantom knock but that could very well be from the gas. Setting the timing with the logger could also have some ill side effects with the car so get those 2 areas taken care of then well go from there

 

[Psycron]

I grounded the plug and set base timing 5*, she seems to be running much better. Judging by the difference in performance it's important to have your base timing set correctly. The noise coming from the head is definitely lifter tick. I'm going to have it changed to Mobil 1 and add some Lucas and see if it quiets them down. Purrs like a kitten!

oh, and some high octane fuel and booster wouldn't hurt

 

[SpoolnTsi]

I grounded the plug and set base timing 5*, she seems to be running much better. Judging by the difference in performance it's important to have your base timing set correctly. The noise coming from the head is definitely lifter tick. I'm going to have it changed to Mobil 1 and add some Lucas and see if it quiets them down. Purrs like a kitten!

oh, and some high octane fuel and booster wouldn't hurt

, having the correct base timing is VERY important for a properly running vehicle. I use mobil 1 10-30 full synthetic in my car and i love it. I would try that first before add the lucas. You can always ad the lucas later if the mobil 1 doesnt work out. If you try mobil 1 and lucas first and it doesnt work out, you would have to change the oil again and all you accomplished is wasting your money and perfectly good oil. Good luck and keep us posted

 

[Psycron]

I'm happy to announce the lifter tick is gone! I decided not to change the oil twice so I went to pep boys and bought some Marvel Mystery Oil; got out to the parking lot and dumped it in. There were no immediate results. I got back from vacation and picked my car up at the rental place after it had been sitting there for a couple of days. Started her up and didn't notice too much but was thinking "sounds more quiet than usual". Pulled into the driveway and left it running. Surveyed the car and listened, man it sounds gooood!! No more tick, engine just putts gently at idle and sounds great. Now if I can just figure that noise that happens while the car is warming up...anyway, that mystery oil does as advertised- either that or the car decided to hush up after a couple of days after; draw your own conclusion