Pushing the 16G

[pneumo]

Yeah, I'm due for some new pics, the car looks hot with the slicks and carbon hatch. I just need a clear day with good light.

 

[Phil1320]

Lol I thought you already married to him after his chip/help got you over your 2yr drought.

Nahhhh.....it was just a few dates here and there

I got out of my 2 year drought initially with the help of my buddy Bullett, deciding that slicks were the answer to my traction issues. He was the one that was there watching me race the last 4-5 outings and I was at 11.59 when the chip that Dave made came into play.....so really, Dave helped me edge out Dave

 

[turbotalon1g]

Congrats, that is awesome.

For some reason I thought that you still had an internal WG with the valvespring under the actuator to limit movement. Does that valvespring still allow the WG to open much?

Great work and thanks for posting it up.

 

[pneumo]

Congrats, that is awesome.

For some reason I thought that you still had an internal WG with the valvespring under the actuator to limit movement. Does that valvespring still allow the WG to open much?

Great work and thanks for posting it up.

The wastegate doesn't open much. I have a dumptube and I can hear it when the wastegate opens. It's not very loud anymore. It used to be louder with the regular wastegate actuator.

Phil, Josh,
I'm flattered that you guys are fighting over me, but you both should know that I can only be good friends with you since my heart is promised to my true love; my Talon!

 

[Phil1320]

 

[Nate Crisman]

The wastegate doesn't open much. I have a dumptube and I can hear it when the wastegate opens. It's not very loud anymore. It used to be louder with the regular wastegate actuator.
l

Did you see any change in the boost curve with the valve spring setup vs the oem actuator?

I'm debating putting a Tial MVS gate on my o2 housing in attempt to be able to hold the gate completely closed under the assumption that exhaust pressure is stronger than the oem actuator spring. I run my wastegate duty cycle noid at 100% from 5000rpm up to redline, so the "boost control" is really only to set boost on the line and control the spike as the car launches.

 

[carfanatic_88]

Great runs!! Glad to see what your doing with your 16g setup!

 

[wdawson4]

e85 and a 16g is like a magic door to an amazing setup...... i wish is wasnt snowing on the east coast u west coast guys get to have fun all year round

 

[Mr Peepers]

Amazing times!!! Bravo

 

[TSimage]

The wastegate doesn't open much. I have a dumptube and I can hear it when the wastegate opens. It's not very loud anymore. It used to be louder with the regular wastegate actuator.

Phil, Josh,
I'm flattered that you guys are fighting over me, but you both should know that I can only be good friends with you since my heart is promised to my true love; my Talon!

 

[pneumo]

Did you see any change in the boost curve with the valve spring setup vs the oem actuator?

I'm debating putting a Tial MVS gate on my o2 housing in attempt to be able to hold the gate completely closed under the assumption that exhaust pressure is stronger than the oem actuator spring. I run my wastegate duty cycle noid at 100% from 5000rpm up to redline, so the "boost control" is really only to set boost on the line and control the spike as the car launches.

My logger took a dump a couple months ago, so I lost the data. IIRC the boost level is up by 2psi after each shift, and maybe one psi at the top of each gear. I scheduled some dyno time this Saturday so I can compare it with the dyno pull I did last Summer on the 16G. It should be interesting!

 

[pneumo]

OK everyone forget about the heavy spring mod I did on the wastegate, 225 pound spring is overkill. Nate, I'm starting to really like the idea of an O2 mounted external gate.

I was on the dyno yesterday at Full Function Motorsports and I was seeing boost spiking over 40psi at 4800rpm, which maxxed out my MAP sensor. It was also beyond what my ignition could handle as it misfired at that point, too. The dyno loads up the car differently than driving on the street, which is why boost would spike so much higher. The highest boost I saw on the street or track was 33psi.
I couldn't do a full pull on the dyno because of the spike/misfires. I had to start the dyno pull at 4000rpm and roll into the throttle at 4500rpm to get past the spike/misfire. I was mostly interested in the top end performance anyway since that's what matters on the track. I spent too much time chasing the spike/misfire issue, which also split the T fitting going to the MAP sensor so I didn't have a chance to dial in the tune as good as I'd like. Regardless, I'm still happy with the progress and I have plans to squeeze more out of this setup.

Here it is, 421 AWHP on a Mustang Dyno with an EVO3 16G.

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I can only imagine what the torque would look like if the stock ignition could handle it.

 

[SBstar]

Nice numbers for not being able to get it done correctly! Mount that external wastegate and get back out there and show us how it's done...again!

 

[FonZ454]

I don't even know what to say, that's just silly. congrats - hope to be somewhere around there next year.

 

[1991BlackTalon]

Vey impressive!

 

[Phil1320]

Wow....that's incredible for the problems you were experiencing, but with your race weight and trap speed there was no way you were making less. I figured 440 so I was kinda close.

The 02 mounted external is one of the best mods I've done to my car....you really should do it up

 

[forcefed86]

Dyno's are for tuning, the trap speeds and weight tell all. That's making some silly power! CONGRATS!

Do you do anything "special" to keep the turbo alive under those kinds of loads. Mine recently failed. (Fwd thrust bushing) I'm seeing 36 or so on the spike. I figured this is what killed the turbo.


I thought my WG springs were over kill! You take the cake on that design! It was hard to get a heavy enough spring. These are 10lb springs. Didn't have that much of an effect honestly. I noticed about 1-2psi more boost from 4-6500. Seems like your design would work well with a little lighter spring.

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Also OBX makes a dual port external actuator. This may work more like an external gate? I've never been brave enough to drop the $90 though.

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http://compare.ebay.com/like/370336...de9c2de&itemid=370336116979&ff4=263602_309572

 

[Steve93Talon]

Forge makes an actuator for DSM style turbos, they offer custom spring tensions as well.

Forge Motorsport | Alloy Fabrication

 

[streetdsmpwr]

I use a 20 psi Holset actuator on my setup. Works pretty good, but I can't tell how much boost it is gonna hold until I get my new clutch in. IMO the external gate is the way to go, though.

 

[pneumo]

Thanks for the tips, links and pics, nice work!
It's good to see I'm not the only one who thinks outside the box.

To help my turbo survive, the oil feed comes from the oil filter housing and the hose is routed behind the radiator fans for a little extra cooling. If the car is hot I'll let it idle with both fans on until the temps drop.

 

[forcefed86]

Thanks for the tips, links and pics, nice work!
It's good to see I'm not the only one who thinks outside the box.

To help my turbo survive, the oil feed comes from the oil filter housing and the hose is routed behind the radiator fans for a little extra cooling. If the car is hot I'll let it idle with both fans on until the temps drop.

Do you still use a restrictor inline running the oil from the housing? I had thought about putting a "T" in my oil cooler return to supply the turbo. I already removed the thermal actuator deal in the oil housing. So I should have full flow through there all the time.

I'm interested in those timing numbers as well! Do you keep timing flat lined during boost at 8* until 6k and then ramp back up quickly to peak 18* at 8K? How do your timing numbers progress from intial boost up to 6k?

I'm a firm believer in boost over timing myself. Currently I'm around 14* around 4500 and ramp up to 18* from there to 7k. I have some lite peppering on the plugs that scares me a bit. It's good to know great power is being made at such low timing! I was afraid to drop mine anymore.

 

[Sirnixalot]

I am trying to take the 16g as far as i can on the 93oct pump gas that we get here.

So far i have
Megan O2 housing
Megan 3" downpipe and exhaust
Small blitz SUS filter on custom 3" intake with Evo 8 MAF
BR8ES plugs
Evo 8 ECU & knock sensor
FIC 750cc injectors
Walbro 255
Profec B
Ebay intercooler & hard piping, long route
MR Peepers style actuator modification (14psi spring from ebay DSM actuator, Garrett actuator top half and rod, extended lower portion 8mm and cut 6mm off the internal stopper on the actuator rod for a supposed 14mm of extra open travel)

Before the actuator i was getting creep to 25psi now it only creeps to 23psi .

Next mods are to convert the O2 to external gate to help with the boost creep, HKS 272 intake/264 exhaust cams, evo 8 valesprings, retainers, lifters and rocker arms.

Virtual dyno has me at 315whp and 279wtq. I am aiming for 350whp and at least 300wtq.

I might see about converting to a short route VRSF intercooler.

 

[TSimage]

A thing for most to understand is that FFTec Dyno is the stingiest Dyno this side of Buschurs and rumored to be worse. That car would have dyno'd 450awhp on any other MUSTANG dyno let alone Dynojet. Good numbers and it shows with the times...

Get those issues solved and go at it again. Whens the next visit to the track?

 

[pneumo]

Do you still use a restrictor inline running the oil from the housing? I had thought about putting a "T" in my oil cooler return to supply the turbo. I already removed the thermal actuator deal in the oil housing. So I should have full flow through there all the time.

I'm interested in those timing numbers as well! Do you keep timing flat lined during boost at 8* until 6k and then ramp back up quickly to peak 18* at 8K? How do your timing numbers progress from intial boost up to 6k?

I'm a firm believer in boost over timing myself. Currently I'm around 14* around 4500 and ramp up to 18* from there to 7k. I have some lite peppering on the plugs that scares me a bit. It's good to know great power is being made at such low timing! I was afraid to drop mine anymore.

I don't use a restrictor in the oil feed line, just a straight -3AN line.
When I was running the 14b a few years ago I used the stock oil feed line with it's built in restrictor, and I saw some wear on the thrust bearing after chasing the 14b record for 3 months. I think a little more oil pressure and extra cooling would've saved it. The 16G uses the same bearings. The 16g spins slower than a 14b, but it also puts out more power.

The oil thermostat works backwards from the engine thermostat. When oil is cold the thermostat is open so oil can go through the oil cooler or it can go straight to the engine. When oil gets hot the thermostat closes the passage that bypasses the oil cooler, so all oil goes to the oil cooler. Also, when you feed the turbo oil from the OFH it's already gone through the oil cooler, so tapping the oil cooler line is the same thing.

My timing map is set up so it constantly rises once above peak torque by one degree for every 500 rpm assuming torque (g/rev) stays the same. It's also set up so timing rises by roughly 1 degree for every 3psi of boost drop off. Timing is lowest at peak torque, which typically happens a few hundred rpm after reaching full boost. FYI I'm using E85. Pump gas timing would be much lower.

A thing for most to understand is that FFTec Dyno is the stingiest Dyno this side of Buschurs and rumored to be worse. That car would have dyno'd 450awhp on any other MUSTANG dyno let alone Dynojet. Good numbers and it shows with the times...

Get those issues solved and go at it again. Whens the next visit to the track?

I might be able to hit the track this Saturday if everything goes smoothly. The weather looks great!

 

[forcefed86]

My timing map is set up so it constantly rises once above peak torque by one degree for every 500 rpm assuming torque (g/rev) stays the same. It's also set up so timing rises by roughly 1 degree for every 3psi of boost drop off. Timing is lowest at peak torque, which typically happens a few hundred rpm after reaching full boost. FYI I'm using E85. Pump gas timing would be much lower.

Thanks for the info on the turbo. Do you ever get oil seal blow by? My turbo builder told me the rear seals will leak with full pressure/volume and that was the reason for the restrictor from the factory. That being said, I know it works for some and not others. I think I'll try opening up the restrictor from .070 to .090 first.

Gotcha, all the timing info makes great sense. What does your map start out like though as you transition into boost initially? IE my cruise timing is low as well around 25*. As I get into boost before peak torque...

1lb of boost I drop it to 22*
5-24lbs ramp down to18*
as I approach 4500rpm (guessing thats around my peak torque) I ramp down to 14* across the board to 5800ish
Then at 5800 or so I ramp up 2* per 1000 rpm.

I'm using jakal and e85 as well.

Sorry to be a pain I'm just trying to avoid this crap! (brp9es plugs.)

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I thought my timing might be too low (until reading your post) and maybe that was causing detonation. Now I think I need to lower it more. This just seemed odd to me because most e85 DSM guys are talking about 22* of timing plus across the board. And just to throw it out there I have my knock sensor installed and working. Only time I see knock is at little to no load initial acceleration. And it's brief and sporadic. Also have the phantom knock checked in jakal.