Problem with valves or head??

[reveal1123]

I am in the process of re-timing my engine. I took the first step and positioned the #1 cylinder at TDC. I then tried to position my camshaft dowls at the 12 O'Clock position, but neither cam would turn clockwise or counterclockwise past a certain point.

I panicked, thinking that my valves somehow got bent. Once I gathered some sense, I turned the crank slightly, and then tried to turn the cams. Voila, they spun perfectly.

What could the problem be at TDC? The way I found TDC was putting a 12" socket extension through the spark plug hole and turned the crank until the extension was at it's peak.

 

[Defiant]

What could the problem be at TDC? The way I found TDC was putting a 12" socket extension through the spark plug hole and turned the crank until the extension was at it's peak.

When you have a piston (two pistons in an inline 4-cylinder) at TDC, there's no room for the valves to open because they're hitting the pistons. Yes, you may have bent some, depending all on how much you tried to gorilla the cams.
Did this engine have no timing belt on it to start with? You're supposed to start with setting the valvetrain before taking off the old belts.

 

[reveal1123]

No, I did not have the timing belt on the motor. I was eliminating the balance shafts, and I spun the crank a rotation or two while I was in there. The cam sprockets were one rotation off, thats why I had to turn them manually.

If the valves were not already bent, then there is no way that I bent them trying to turn the cams. I know better than to force something that wont budge.

Okay, so I set the cam sprockets before I set the crank? Is that what I have to do?

 

[reveal1123]

Wow, I put it all together, started it up and it seems that my valves are F#$%#. It sounds like a real loud clicking noise coming from the valve cover. The car kind of idles weird too, it dips and almost shuts off then goes to 1200.. then idles around 875 for about 5 seconds.

Who wants to be the one who tells me the bad news?

someone mentioned that my lifters may have "bled down". what does lifter bleed down mean?

I checked and checked my timing- perfect. I am still wondering how this could have happened.

Maybe i'll try the good old folks at JNZ tuning of philadelphia for a head rebuild. Anyone ever hear of them?

 

[DevilSperm]

do a compression test and see what it turns up

 

[reveal1123]

do a compression test and see what it turns up

i guess i can start with that, huh....that would tell me if the valves or pistons are leaking..

 

[DevilSperm]

i guess i can start with that, huh....that would tell me if the valves or pistons are leaking..

yes sir, it will at least help identify whether its the valves or not

 

[reveal1123]

compression: 170 + on each cylinder. What the hell is going on? that eliminates the valves being bad, right? what else could it be?

 

[DevilSperm]

thats odd but good news....reset it to TDC and double check to make sure your CAS is positioned right...you may have never touched it but check it anyway...ive seen that thing do some weird shit...with 170, your valve, pistons and rings should all be good

 

[kalla]

Also be sure you're not one or more teeth off on the timing belt ...

 

[johnk]

I'd bet your timing is off a tooth on one of the cams. Did you take any vacuum lines out when you were working that would mess with your idle if you didnt replace them.

 

[reveal1123]

in the first post i mentioned that i was using the 12 inch extender to find TDC. Someone mentioned that using the arrows on the crank and front case were an easy way to find TDC instead so I used that. well, since then I put the crank on the mark, and then i put the extender in just to check, and the piston still had a little more room to move up. I figured this was normal and let it go. Does this pose as the problem?

no, no vacuum lines were removed.

 

[johnk]

Mine still has like 1/4 - 1/10 of an inch to TDC when I used a screwdriver down the spark plug hole. I still timed it based on the mark at the crank. I just used it to verify that cyl 1 was at TDC and not cyl 2.

 

[spoolinawddsm]

line all the marks up... you didnt bend a valve turning the crank by hand.

 

[DevilSperm]

line all the marks up... you didnt bend a valve turning the crank by hand.

just to clear up any misconception....you can bend valves by using a 3/8 drive socket enough to make it run like shit....it doesnt take a hard smack to get them bent

 

[reveal1123]

devil, you think my valves may still be bent?

 

[DevilSperm]

devil, you think my valves may still be bent?

actually no, i dont....did you double check to make sure all your timing marks lined up? you a few teeth off perhaps? 1 tooth on the exhaust side wont matter much...i ran mine like that for a long time...intake im sure is the same...but if you are 2 or more teeth off i would lean towards that screwing it up....if they are all lined up..then im out of ideas other than the CAS...it IS a DSM so it could be something completely un-related to your head damn cars!

 

[johnk]

1 tooth off on the intake will give you low vacuum and poor idle.

 

[spoolinawddsm]

i honestly dont think its possible to bend valves with a 3/8 socket.

 

[DevilSperm]

post #9 http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/showthread.php?t=94302&highlight=bend+3/8

 

[reveal1123]

that thread has a lot of information. I dont think there is anything wrong with my valves anymore either...

when i check the cam angle sensor, what do i look for?

 

[DevilSperm]

set the engine at TDC and take off your CAS and make sure the notch is pointing forward

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[johnk]

What exactly did you have apart?

He doesn't have to take the CAS out that would mess with his base timing. Set the intake CAM so the notch on the center bolt is facing the firewall then look at the CAS through the slot in the end of the cam you'll either see a notch like the pic from devil or the smooth end. Don't turn the cam while any of the pistons are at TDC.

I know I asked if you had any vacuum lines off and I hate to sound like an echo cause everyone here says and says it again but try a boost leak test. When I rebuilt my head I did so much work on the drivers side with setting the t-belt I breezed through on the other side and forgot my BOV vacuum line and had same symptoms as your saying high idle start, good idle, dies quick. Do you have a boost/vacuum gauge? What's the idle read before it stalls?

 

[reveal1123]

it doesnt stall at all.. it just had a little variation in the idles.. sounded like it would almost stall then jump up again... i'll check the cas tomorrow.

btw the only things i had apart was the oil pan off (downpipe, transfer case), front case off, timing belt and all sprockets (except cams).. and the valve cover.. thats it..

 

[reveal1123]

my timing was off 1 tooth on the exhaust side.. thanks for your help guys... car runs like a dream...

my lifters are ticking a little tho... hope it goes away...

thanks again devil