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Pre-compressor methanol injection

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Dsm-monster, you make some great points and put a lot of time into your posts. :thumb:

I'll start the clock...

Now water as the sole Pre-Turbo will have these issues to keep in mind.

1) Being that water doesn't evaporate as fast as Meth, this means you run the risk of it not totally evaporating at low boost. = Comp blade damage and not the full spool up potential Meth will have being sprayed even at 0psi (can't be colder than 55 degree ambient).

2) Since water has a higher flash point (not usually described that way), you'll never be able to run a lot of it in comparison to Meth (Pre-Turbo especially). = Finding this threshold of how much water can be sprayed until droplet issues vs Meth volume needed to match waters heat absorption, would give Meth the cooling benefit at the wheel and still not cause damage. This to me is the one area that hasn't been explored with enough data. Water can only go so far, while doing a great job, before causing droplet issues due to volume. Meth could be sprayed to a volume point to out cool water and still not cause this droplet issue. We just haven't found the volumes and micron mist needed but the community is getting closer. I suspect companies like AIS are getting happy Big Block clients due to them injecting so much Meth Pre-Turbo, it's causing good drops in housing temps aside from large density gains (comp eff). They risk turbo blade erosion but they've yet to show any blade damage from droplets.

On AI spray location two, after the turbo (before intercooler), that Meth will eat the hell out of your intercooler core faster than your turbo blades. You'd want to guarantee evaporation by only using a 2gph here also to save your core from a corroded death. But this again will help density which is what we're after here with Pre-Turbo (reenact winter).
 
Just wanted to post my findings when running a pre-turbo nozzle. I run 100% meth normally through a single 15gph nozzle mounted pre-throttle body. I added a sec 2gph nozzle pre-turbo. My car also runs speed density so no MAF issues. I gained nothing when doing this. My setup is maxed and i was hoping to see an addition 1-2psi up top since the turbo just falls on its face. That wasnt the case.

Reasons for it possibly not working? It was suggested that maybe my EVO8 IC setup was a restriction, it was also suggested that i needed to not run 100% meth and run a mix pre-turbo. To me that wasnt an option since my setup was dialed in on the single nozzle setup. If someone can show gains switching to a meth/water mix setup pre-turbo vs a single nozzle all meth setup i would love to see it. And im talking more than some formulas and speculation. Show me some logs with airflow, IAT's or even track times with mph or dyno numbers.

Also on another note i didnt notice a decrease in IAT's going to pre-turbo setup vs. the single M15. If i would have seen atleast a decrease there i might have stayed with it. What i do have now since the pre-turbo injection has been off is split compressor o-ring that needs to be replaced before any fun can be had again. Was it the meth? Was it age? I dont know. Just something else to keep an eye out for if you're doing pre-turbo injection.
 
Dsm-monster, you make some great points and put a lot of time into your posts. :thumb:

I'll start the clock...

Now water as the sole Pre-Turbo will have these issues to keep in mind.

1) Being that water doesn't evaporate as fast as Meth, this means you run the risk of it not totally evaporating at low boost. = Comp blade damage and not the full spool up potential Meth will have being sprayed even at 0psi (can't be colder than 55 degree ambient).

2) Since water has a higher flash point (not usually described that way), you'll never be able to run a lot of it in comparison to Meth (Pre-Turbo especially). = Finding this threshold of how much water can be sprayed until droplet issues vs Meth volume needed to match waters heat absorption, would give Meth the cooling benefit at the wheel and still not cause damage. This to me is the one area that hasn't been explored with enough data. Water can only go so far, while doing a great job, before causing droplet issues due to volume. Meth could be sprayed to a volume point to out cool water and still not cause this droplet issue. We just haven't found the volumes and micron mist needed but the community is getting closer. I suspect companies like AIS are getting happy Big Block clients due to them injecting so much Meth Pre-Turbo, it's causing good drops in housing temps aside from large density gains (comp eff). They risk turbo blade erosion but they've yet to show any blade damage from droplets.

On AI spray location two, after the turbo (before intercooler), that Meth will eat the hell out of your intercooler core faster than your turbo blades. You'd want to guarantee evaporation by only using a 2gph here also to save your core from a corroded death. But this again will help density which is what we're after here with Pre-Turbo (reenact winter).

I still think water would be more effecient assuming you had a way to break it down to around 5 microns. Problem being you need a ton of pressure to do this. Alot more than 250psi. Devils own tested the d01-do2 nozzles to 15-17microns.The guys below are breaking pure water down to 5 microns!

Theres a shop in australia that is doing this with great success. The kit isn't cheap...(Around 2k for everything) but how does 720hp hp out of a 1.3 litre on pump gas and straight water sound? And did I mention it's all injected pre-turbo? I'm not saying any of it is true, but it's interesting.

There is alot more info over on the RX-7 boards, but this is the shop.

Water Injection

I was considering injecting into the compressor housing itself, since this is where the air is being compressed and the most heat is generated. Directly at the brass fitting in the pic. Thinking about injecting .75gph in the housing and .75gph in the inlet.

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Just wanted to post my findings when running a pre-turbo nozzle. I run 100% meth normally through a single 15gph nozzle mounted pre-throttle body. I added a sec 2gph nozzle pre-turbo. My car also runs speed density so no MAF issues. I gained nothing when doing this. My setup is maxed and i was hoping to see an addition 1-2psi up top since the turbo just falls on its face. That wasnt the case.

Reasons for it possibly not working? It was suggested that maybe my EVO8 IC setup was a restriction, it was also suggested that i needed to not run 100% meth and run a mix pre-turbo. To me that wasnt an option since my setup was dialed in on the single nozzle setup. If someone can show gains switching to a meth/water mix setup pre-turbo vs a single nozzle all meth setup i would love to see it. And im talking more than some formulas and speculation. Show me some logs with airflow, IAT's or even track times with mph or dyno numbers.


What are you using for a WG? WGA? Head ported? Cams?Alky pump pressure? Your not giving us enough info to really help you out. I'd suggest a parts list in your profile. I think your problem may lie elsewhere.

Also on another note i didnt notice a decrease in IAT's going to pre-turbo setup vs. the single M15. If i would have seen atleast a decrease there i might have stayed with it. What i do have now since the pre-turbo injection has been off is split compressor o-ring that needs to be replaced before any fun can be had again. Was it the meth? Was it age? I dont know. Just something else to keep an eye out for if you're doing pre-turbo injection.

You may not notice a significant increase in IAT pre-injection. This is because none of the meth you sprayed pre-turbo is making it to your temp sensor. Once it hits the comp. it essentially flashes and is absorbed into cooling the turbo itself . And although it's not effecting the IAT at you temp sensor, what it is doing is increasing the VE of your turbo itself, which will effectively shift the efficiency range on the comp. map to the left. In other words your 16g will act more like an 18g assuming you have your setup dialed in properly.
 
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What are you using for a WG? WGA? Head ported? Cams?Alky pump pressure? Your not giving us enough info to really help you out. I'd suggest a parts list in your profile. I think your problem may lie elsewhere.



You may not notice a significant increase in IAT pre-injection. This is because none of the meth you sprayed pre-turbo is making it to your temp sensor. Once it hits the comp. it essentially flashes and is absorbed into cooling the turbo itself . And although it's not effecting the IAT at you temp sensor, what it is doing is increasing the VE of your turbo itself, which will effectively shift the efficiency range on the comp. map to the left. In other words your 16g will act more like an 18g assuming you have your setup dialed in properly.

I can go into all the details of my setup but i dont think its necessary. I run an alkycontrol.com progressive setup, including his pump and whatever its max psi is. I know he tests them to 250psi. I run the stock WGA shimmed, and the exh housing is ported to promote flow to the turbine and not the wastegate passage. The compressor housing also has some minor porting as, both to match the outlet pipe and the smooth out some of the casting flawing. Cam's are GSC S2's. 1mm over valves, 9:1 eagle wiseco setup. The list goes on. According to the logs its seeing a "calculated" 46lbs/min. The cars pretty much full weight minus a cf hood, a small battery and no front bumper. Its traps 120mph.

My point is i want to see someone put down some numbers running 100% methanol on a single nozzle, and then run a pre-turbo setup with whatever mix works and show me an increase in spool, torque, horsepower, boost. I understand it should extend the compressor map. But i didnt see it. Again maybe i needed to run a water/meth mix preturbo. Cars in Florida, im in Virginia. So even if i wanted to go muck around with it again i cant. Im not saying it doesnt work, i want some solid proof. Show me a dyno sheet, show me a consistent car at the track pickup 3-5mph!

Since going to my FMIC setup i havent gone back and tested things with no IC to see if there is any pressure drop/loss across the ic and the piping setup. The main reason for the FMIC was for hot lapping, since the SMIC even with ducting and larger inlet and outlets wasnt up for the task.

If i can use less meth and make more power im all for it.
 
I can go into all the details of my setup but i dont think its necessary. I run an alkycontrol.com progressive setup, including his pump and whatever its max psi is. I know he tests them to 250psi. I run the stock WGA shimmed, and the exh housing is ported to promote flow to the turbine and not the wastegate passage. The compressor housing also has some minor porting as, both to match the outlet pipe and the smooth out some of the casting flawing. Cam's are GSC S2's. 1mm over valves, 9:1 eagle wiseco setup. The list goes on. According to the logs its seeing a "calculated" 46lbs/min. The cars pretty much full weight minus a cf hood, a small battery and no front bumper. Its traps 120mph.

My point is i want to see someone put down some numbers running 100% methanol on a single nozzle, and then run a pre-turbo setup with whatever mix works and show me an increase in spool, torque, horsepower, boost. I understand it should extend the compressor map. But i didnt see it. Again maybe i needed to run a water/meth mix preturbo. Cars in Florida, im in Virginia. So even if i wanted to go muck around with it again i cant. Im not saying it doesnt work, i want some solid proof. Show me a dyno sheet, show me a consistent car at the track pickup 3-5mph!

Since going to my FMIC setup i havent gone back and tested things with no IC to see if there is any pressure drop/loss across the ic and the piping setup. The main reason for the FMIC was for hot lapping, since the SMIC even with ducting and larger inlet and outlets wasnt up for the task.

If i can use less meth and make more power im all for it.

And I want to make it clear I'm not "bashing" on your setup. It obviously works very well.

But IMHO, your using to much meth for one. With your turbo size and boost levels you don't need 15gph. Thats a ton of meth for a 2.0. Julio (maker of your kit) uses a 15gph nozzle on his 3.8 making upwards of 600 crank hp. To much meth will slow your spool down.


Another problem I see with your setup is the factory WGA. The spring doesn't have enough pressure to hold the puck closed (shimmed or not). If you think I'm mistaken wire your WG closed and see what happens.

Also shimming decreases the travel of the actuator making it "spike happy". I've been in your shoes and modified my WGA to suit my needs. I now use a HD buick GN actuator which has more travel and a tighter internal spring (17psi). I have also added to this spring pressure to suit my needs. My boost holds rock solid at 25psi and does not spike over 25 at all. Past this point I have started reaching the limits of the turbo. I can get the turbo to burry my 30lb gauge and hold 27+ until around 4300. At this point the boost slowly drops to redline.

You may have also maxed out your turbo's range completely with the better flowing head.
 
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And I want to make it clear I'm not "bashing" on your setup. It obviously works very well.

But IMHO, your using to much meth for one. With your turbo size and boost levels you don't need 15gph. Thats a ton of meth for a 2.0. Julio (maker of your kit) uses a 15gph nozzle on his 3.8 making upwards of 600 crank hp. To much meth will slow your spool down.

If it was too much the car would lay over. It doesnt. I have talked to Julio numerous times about meth and his kits. Yes a M15 is big hence using a progressive. I was using a M10 but noticed lower IATs a going to the M15 and from what i have seen in the cars i have tuned, more meth = more power esp on small turbo setups where you way past the efficiency range.


Another problem I see with your setup is the factory WGA. The spring doesn't have enough pressure to hold the puck closed (shimmed or not). If you think I’m mistaken wire your WG closed and see what happens.

Also shimming decreases the travel of the actuator making it "spike happy". I've been in your shoes and modified my WGA to suit my needs. I now use a HD buick GN actuator which has more travel and a tighter internal spring (17psi). I have also added to this spring pressure to suit my needs. My boost holds rock solid at 25psi and does not spike over 25 at all. Past this point I have started reaching the limits of the turbo. I can get the turbo to burry my 30lb gauge and hold 27+ until around 4300. At this point the boost slowly drops to redline.

Yes i know this makes things spike happy, i have no problem with it though. I have a meth tune and straight pump tune. Between the BCS setup and the wga shimming i found a happy balance that worked. Would an external gate make a difference? Maybe. But i have yet to see anyone with a maxed out setup switch to one and pick up a few more psi. For the money it didnt make sense for a maybe.

CB didnt need one to make his numbers. And neither did a few others. They did however do some magic porting to the exh housing.

You may have also maxed out your turbo's range completely with the better flowing head.

This is pretty much my thinking. The setup needs a bigger turbo. But as it sits its fun on the street. If pre-turbo injection will make more power im all for it. The only other thing i havent done to max out things mechanically is dial in the cams. Im sure theres a few more HP there. But the wallet is thin these days and dyno time aint cheap.
 
If it was too much the car would lay over. It doesnt. I have talked to Julio numerous times about meth and his kits. Yes a M15 is big hence using a progressive. I was using a M10 but noticed lower IATs a going to the M15 and from what i have seen in the cars i have tuned, more meth = more power esp on small turbo setups where you way past the efficiency range.

That is true to a point, but... From the words of Julio himself meth should only be used up to the point of preventing detonation. It's not all about IAT! I improved my 1/8th mile by over 2mph lowering my meth intake. (I am progressive as well). This was dropping down from 25 gph post to a 15gph post and 2gph pre. Same boost. (980cfm 3.8 litre 5800rpm)

Standard petrol has more energy and burns hotter than meth. So for spool up, the more of it the better. Once you start replacing 20+ percent of your WOT fueling with meth your lowering the EGT and slowing the burn rate/spool up time. And while this won't drastically effect peak over all HP it will slow the time it takes you to get there. Now if you had a larger turbo and needed more meth to run more boost this is a different story. In your situation you are already close to max boost on the 16G. So more meth will only slow you down.

I'm just saying there's a happy median that needs to be found. Going the math route your on the high side IMO. 16g flows 550cfm max. At 7k rpm on a 2.0 liter you should be looking at around 8-10gph straight meth. If you dropped down to a 10gph post and 2 .75gph nozzles pre, I'd bet you'd get better performance in the 1/8th than the current setup.

Yes i know this makes things spike happy, i have no problem with it though. I have a meth tune and straight pump tune. Between the BCS setup and the wga shimming i found a happy balance that worked. Would an external gate make a difference? Maybe. But i have yet to see anyone with a maxed out setup switch to one and pick up a few more psi. For the money it didnt make sense for a maybe.


I'm not saying to go external. I'm saying get the proper actuator for your current setup. As discussed here.

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/turbo-system-tech/267309-evo3-16g-boost-creep-solved-3.html


CB didnt need one to make his numbers. And neither did a few others. They did however do some magic porting to the exh housing.

LOL magic porting... More like the opposite. They made the ports more restrictive so they would creep in the upper RPM band. So instead of boost bleeding off, it creeps back up. Up to the point of maxing out the turbo 100%, this is just another way around not having the right WGA.


This is pretty much my thinking. The setup needs a bigger turbo. But as it sits its fun on the street. If pre-turbo injection will make more power im all for it. The only other thing i havent done to max out things mechanically is dial in the cams. Im sure theres a few more HP there. But the wallet is thin these days and dyno time aint cheap.

If this is the case, and it may be, then wire the WG shut. If you've actually maxed out the flow 100% you should be fine. I'd be willing to bet you'll see a whole lot more than 23psi if you do. Which only further proves my point that the WG puck is blowing open.

Lastly, you can degree the cams in properly to the cam card without a dyno. If your hunting for that extra 3HP you could play with them on a dyno. Dollar for dollar, not worth it most cases.
 
H82lose91, we can assume you're running Julio's (Alkycontrol) 150psi pump and splitting one feed into an M2 nozzle and M15 nozzle correct?
BTW, Julio's pumps don't push 250psi, he sells a pressure gauge that goes to 150psi FWIW.

Can't help you on why you're not seeing a psi gain if you're positive the M2 line is spraying Meth. So far I believe you're the first one to post this conclusion with any turbo.

DO has dynos of Diesels with Preturbo, maybe they'll chime in here and help with some of the spool up improvements and power.

Like DSM-Monster mentioned, Turboglenn has other info you'll find interesting.

ForceFed, I saw that new spray nozzle. Water Injection has found it's Cher, that's going to be huge if it's not super expensive.
 
.
ForceFed, I saw that new spray nozzle. Water Injection has found it's Cher, that's going to be huge if it's not super expensive.

Are you referring to the nozzles tested in the link that forcefed86 provided (post 55)? The spray pattern on those looks incredible!

Does anyone have video of the Devil's Own nozzles in action?
 
ForceFed, I saw that new spray nozzle. Water Injection has found it's Cher, that's going to be huge if it's not super expensive.

Honestly they just look like a typical automotive paint gun nozzle. Problem I see is air pressure. I don't know how much pressure they are using to atomize the water that finely. And of course they won't tell me.

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http://www.pnramerica.com/pdfs/p49_53.pdf

http://www.lechlerusa.com/products/atomizing_2.asp
http://www.bete.com/products/sa.html

Although if one were to combine 250psi pump and 25psi of boost pressure, I'd think you would get great atomization. Standard paint guns seem to atomize very well and run from 10-30psi range.

If you needed to have a compressed air storage tank and compressor This would add alot of weight and hassle.

Are you referring to the nozzles tested in the link that forcefed86 provided (post 55)? The spray pattern on those looks incredible!

Does anyone have video of the Devil's Own nozzles in action?

You won't be able to tell the difference between a 20 micron and a 5 micron spray. They will both just look like fog. If you do a search on youtube there are several DO examples.
 
I just watched a couple videos on youtube showing the DO nozzles. Thanks for the tip forcefed86.:thumb:

One thing that concerns me is that liquid continues coming out for a second or two after the pump shuts off. In the closeup at the end of this video you can see the stream which then trickles and drips to a stop. I would think that it shouldn't do that.

YouTube - 4gph water/methanol injection nozzle spray
 
I just watched a couple videos on youtube showing the DO nozzles. Thanks for the tip forcefed86.:thumb:

One thing that concerns me is that liquid continues coming out for a second or two after the pump shuts off. In the closeup at the end of this video you can see the stream which then trickles and drips to a stop. I would think that it shouldn't do that.

Look how far the check valve is placed from the nozzle in that setup. It should be mounted right on the nozzle holder like so.

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That is also the 150psi pump. The new 250psi pump does not surge like the one in the video. An extra 100psi does wonders for atomization. My .75gph nozzle looked like a fog at 250psi.
 
Just to throw it out there, distilled water won't corrode aluminum because all of the minerals will have been removed and the ph is neutral, any kind of a meth mix will though.
 
Just to throw it out there, distilled water won't corrode aluminum because all of the minerals will have been removed and the ph is neutral, any kind of a meth mix will though.

Totally false. You are not soaking the turbo with methanol and letting it set. It takes time to corrode. Meth is vaporized the second it enters the comp housing.

A best choice for pre-compressor injection is pure methanol. Methanol instantly flashes (evaporating) as soon as it enters into a hot compressor and meets the heat within it. By using an alcohol, this dramatically reduces the amount of actual fluid exiting the compressor due to it's fast evaporation. Additionally, methanol offers much greater cooling effect then water. Furthermore, methanol is also less dense then water thereby having a softer impact on the impeller. The specific gravity of pure methanol is .792 @ 68° F compared to water which is 1.00 @ 64° F.
 
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No best is h2o. water has a higher heat absorbtion capacity than methanol by far. The heat seen at the compressor tips instantly flashes the water droplets to gas. This is in part why you have the term wet compression. Ideally, you want the higher heat absorbtion of water with the atomization of methanol. . .
 
No best is h2o. water has a higher heat absorbtion capacity than methanol by far. The heat seen at the compressor tips instantly flashes the water droplets to gas. This is in part why you have the term wet compression. Ideally, you want the higher heat absorbtion of water with the atomization of methanol. . .


A agree, and disagree.

Yes water may be able to dissipate more heat. But it has other flaws that make using it impractical.


Because of it's high density and zero flash point, you can't run as much water through compressor as you can meth. So while lb for lb water will cool more efficiently, you can't use as much of it to cool.

Getting the water droplets down to a manageable size is impractical when compared to methanol.


It's not combustible. So you are filling up your cylinders with space that could be occupied by air or fuel.

Up to a point I suppose your right... but for a practical everyday use meth is far superior in every way IMO. I've tried both on my cars. From what I've seen, 100% meth always out performs 50/50 or straight.
 
Forcefed, the Nutramist video sounded like some dude was going to run out while they were spraying and mist his Mullet and fish net t-shirt.WTF

If the other company can make that kit price effective and not have a 300psi compressed air tank in the trunk it would be a great start.

But if DO could get a pump into the 3-400psi range than you could inject an insane mix of 50/50 and not worry about the water being an issue through GIGANTIC nozzles. :thumb:
 
Forcefed, the Nutramist video sounded like some dude was going to run out while they were spraying and mist his Mullet and fish net t-shirt.WTF

I guess that kind of music is suppose to appeal to the dopers. Nutramist systems are used to grow hydroponic pot!

If the other company can make that kit price effective and not have a 300psi compressed air tank in the trunk it would be a great start.

But if DO could get a pump into the 3-400psi range than you could inject an insane mix of 50/50 and not worry about the water being an issue through GIGANTIC nozzles. :thumb:

I'm not so sure the riceracing alky kit is 100% legit on there micron sizes. Everything I've been reading from the suppliers indicated 10-15microns droplet sizes with SOME droplets reaching down the the 5 micron range. These are basically an automotive paint gun nozzle. Air pressures on the sights are usually 20-40psi. Could easily tap a boost source for this kind of pressure.

The ulka vibrating pumps will put out 25 bar. They cost 50 dollars on ebay. Problem being I don't believe they are methanol compatible. Definitely water compatible though. Same pumps they use in expresso makers. Also you need an ac inverter to run one.

If you supplied the ulka pump with a DO 250psi pump.... Might get some nutty pressure out of it.

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Getting higher pressure will help but we are starting to hit the max that other components can handle. Would have to go over to AN style stuff if we went up to 400psi.

If your injection the right amount of mixture into your engine your not going to have an issue with space being taken up by a fluid with no flash point. But its becoming very popular for people to run larger nozzles. Large nozzles and high % of water will loose power.

Though pumps are junk. We looked into trying to finding some that could move the volume of fluid need at the pressure but they all fall on there face. Getting them changed up for methanol is small issue when quantity is considered. They are just way to small for what we are trying to do.
 
I guess that kind of music is suppose to appeal to the dopers. Nutramist systems are used to grow hydroponic pot!



The ulka vibrating pumps will put out 25 bar. They cost 50 dollars on ebay. Problem being I don't believe they are methanol compatible. Definitely water compatible though. Same pumps they use in expresso makers. Also you need an ac inverter to run one.

If you supplied the ulka pump with a DO 250psi pump…. Might get some nutty pressure out of it.

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Here is one, it says brass internals assuming an ebay seller can be trusted.
ULKA vibration pump EAX5 EX5 espresso cappuccino - eBay (item 320445366992 end time Mar-05-10 16:42:28 PST)
Brass is supposed to get along with methanol just fine. Not sure if there is any other materials in there that could make it not work though.


They sure don't flow that much, that is the only bad thing I can see about them.
 
Getting higher pressure will help but we are starting to hit the max that other components can handle. Would have to go over to AN style stuff if we went up to 400psi.

If your injection the right amount of mixture into your engine your not going to have an issue with space being taken up by a fluid with no flash point. But its becoming very popular for people to run larger nozzles. Large nozzles and high % of water will loose power.

Though pumps are junk. We looked into trying to finding some that could move the volume of fluid need at the pressure but they all fall on there face. Getting them changed up for methanol is small issue when quantity is considered. They are just way to small for what we are trying to do.

I'm sure you guys have done alot more research than I have but....

We are talking about pre-turbo injection here right? The pump is still pumping out roughly 1.5ish gpm right? And if one were to supply it with a 250psi head pressure, I'd bet that number would close to double. I'd think that would be more than enough for a pre injection setup. Assuming the pump could handle the high inlet pressures.

On that note anyone tried running 2 shurflow style pumps in series?
 
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