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Pre-compressor methanol injection

Posted by 99gst_racer, Dec 16, 2009

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  1. slowgsr

    slowgsr Proven Member

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    can't wait for the results man!
     
  2. 1995gsx20g

    1995gsx20g Proven Member

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    this is kinda ground breaking.. for me at least.
    was that a little compressor surge??
     
  3. forcefed86

    forcefed86 Proven Member

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    See why I wasn't worried about the tiny little spurts of fluid coming out of the nozzle when it shut off! :thumb: Did that setup have a check valve?

    That's some killer footage! Why did it look like the pipe was being saturated with fluid behind the nozzle before it came on? Just residual from previous runs?

    I thought you were going to be testing on your compound setup? Throw that puppy on an AWD dyno and get some video... or more importantly some good temp,hp, and spool up data!
     
  4. 99gst_racer

    99gst_racer Moderator

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    Yeah, it was an older model dyno and it's a bit finicky. And due to the way that he had to actuate the throttle to prevent it from stalling after a pull, it did surge a little bit. The water spiraling out toward the end is the anti-surge compressor cover doing it's job.

    Yeah, I see now. After doing this test, I'll much less worried about a few small droplets. :) We were using a check valve, but it was like 4 inches away, so we kind of expected a small amount of drain off.

    Yeah, the fluid behind the nozzle was left over fluid from the previous run.

    I do plan to put this same kit on my compound set-up. We just wanted to do the test now and earn as much as we could before I put it on my car. I'll be taking the 2G to the dyno sometime in April, and I'll be injecting pre-compressor by then. :)
     

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  5. endeffect0

    endeffect0 Proven Member

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    aero_sallee: thanks for clearing that up. I was thinking of it like amperage drop in a parallel circuit with a single dc power source... i guess my confusion in my own example was that voltage would be the psi and amperage the total GPH flow. which would make sense in both the analogy and in the plumbing i think.

    sorry for crowding the thread up with remedial questions.


    that was a very cool video. between seeing these test results and finally seeing the compound turbo monster up and running it will be like having Christmas and a birthday one after the other.

    I am very surprised to see the amount of water the turbo chucked back out. its your opinion then that this would not cause damage to the blades over time? it looked rather violent.

    I dont know this is a reason for people to worry less about possible damage, i think we would need to see if their was no detectable wear over quite a few of these pulls wouldn't we? Not trying to be a nay-sayer, i want to see this work, but i worry that we have jumped to a conclusion based on what we wanted this test to show.

    PS. very cool to see the water come spiraling back out, and even cooler to see the camera nearly get sucked into the turbo. :hellyeah:

    edit: i wonder if that would count as a flow restriction and throw the numbers off.
     
  6. 99gst_racer

    99gst_racer Moderator

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    cheers.gif

    That was due to surge. I wouldn't expect the same effect during normal opperation. It's also worth noting that we were spraying a large volume of pure water in that video. Other fluids like methanol and washer fluid atomized better and flashed off much quicker, so it left little residue in the pipe and not nearly the amount coming back out when it surged. So, compressor damage is definitely going to be dependant on the nozzle location, fluid type, and the volume and pressure that it's being injected. But that's an entirely different test. We'll see if my little B16G picks up any damage after this year.

    We thought it was a pretty sweet video too. It was something that was hadn't seen before, so we figured we would try our best to get a good video of it.

    You mean the camera as a flow respriction? No, it was outside of the velocity stack the entire time. It was actually my Blackberry 9700 zoomed in, electrical taped to a jack handle, and set up at the entrance to the velocity stack. Whatever works, right? :D
     

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  7. forcefed86

    forcefed86 Proven Member

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    I don’t think any real answers will come from that video alone. (Cool to watch though!)

    That is a pretty large nozzle (esp @ 250psi!) , and the check valve is not in the “proper” location as stated.

    I’m not sure how they calculated nozzle size…. From the little bit or research I’ve done around 2gph per 500cfm (100% water) is all that is required pre injection. If you inject past this point the turbos efficiency will not increase any more. That being said I would inject the rest of the required mixture for anti-detonation purposes post turbo. Of course this is just rough calculations and the numbers will be skewed by pump pressure/compound setups/injected mixtures.

    With a more moderate nozzle sizing (around 3gph pre and 4gph post @250psi) and the check valve placed in the proper location there would be a lot less beading in the pipes. Still, I see no way to prevent in completely. That is why I use 100% meth.
     
  8. VETTE_50_TH

    VETTE_50_TH Proven Member

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    Wow that video was AWESOME!!! That was crazy. You can really see what happens when you let off the boost since there is water in the inlet. So cool
     

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  9. 99gst_racer

    99gst_racer Moderator

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  10. 99gst_racer

    99gst_racer Moderator

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    I finally got my car up and running. I have a 2 nozzles in the system now. This one a few inches before my 16G compressor (between compressor stages on the compound system), and the other is about 10" before the throttle body. I'll be using pure methanol. I'll be sure to do a dyno pull with and without it activated to gauge what kind of difference it makes.

    I have a feeling that the pre-tb injector is going to wreak havoc on my IAT sensor which is in it's spray path...

    IMG00032-20100421-2031.jpg
     

    Street Build 6K  67

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  11. Devilsown

    Devilsown Proven Member

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    Neat test you got goign on here.
     
  12. 99gst_racer

    99gst_racer Moderator

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    Thanks! I have high hopes for it. I'm using your 250psi pump, BTW.
     

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  13. endeffect0

    endeffect0 Proven Member

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    cant wait to see the results. both the temp drop, and the effect of wet compression.

    I dont recall what you are running for air metering. any chance you will have firm numbers on how many cfm or lbs/min the setup runs with. even better if with and without the meth injection.
     
  14. 99gst_racer

    99gst_racer Moderator

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    I'm running on speed density via ECMlink. Once dialed in last year, I was seeing 67 lbs/min, and I hope to crest 70 this year. I should definitely have before and after data sometime in the near future.
     

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  15. endeffect0

    endeffect0 Proven Member

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    cheers.gif
     
  16. viperlp01

    viperlp01 Proven Member

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    Paul you better be changing that hp/tq number thats under your name this year. 67 lbs/min is nasty. I need to check it out when you get it done.
     

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  17. dsm-onster

    dsm-onster DSM Wiseman

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    That's some incredible airflow for the 60-1 compressor OMG !!!
     

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  18. Scott McIntyre

    Scott McIntyre DSM Wiseman

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    Just to share.... Here's the setup I was running initially:

    * OEM rear windshield washer reservoir, to...
    * 150 PSI shurflo pump, to...
    * Check Value in engine compartment, immediately followed by...
    * Y Union Instant Fitting, split into two 12" lines going to...
    * One pre-turbo DO1 Nozzle in the intake pipe, and
    * One post-turbo D03 Nozzle in the intercooler outlet.

    Picture124-1.jpg

    Within short order, I noticed inducer blade damage to my turbo:

    th_image010.jpg th_image013.jpg
    click to enlarge

    While hitting low boost (before the pump is triggered), the positive pressure at the post-turbo nozzle was forcing the water/meth back through the tubing, though the Y-Union and out the pre-turbo nozzle (which would be experiencing vacuum). Obviously there would not be enough pressure to atomize this water/meth, so it'd just dribble out the pre-turbo nozzle, and pool at the bottom of the intake pipe until enough vacuum was created to suck the liquid into the compressor blades turning at 250,000 RPM... SMASH!


    I've since removed the pre-turbo nozzle, but plan to hook it back up with a DO nozzle holder & check valve. Plus after reading endeffect0's experiences, I'm thinking of adding a solenoid upstream as well.
     

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  19. ramsack

    ramsack Proven Member

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    that's crazy. i would even think atomized it would still erode a bit because they are still liquid particles hitting a super-sonic spinning object.
     
  20. 99gst_racer

    99gst_racer Moderator

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    Thanks for sharing, Scott. After you get some check valves at the nozzles, I would also consider moving your pre-compressor nozzle a bit closer to the compressor, as that should greatly reduce any opportunity for fluid to puddle.
     

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    1999 Mitsubishi Eclipse GST
    609.8 whp · 541.2 lb/ft · 2G DSM
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  21. Scott McIntyre

    Scott McIntyre DSM Wiseman

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    Yes, I think I'll relocate the pre-turbo nozzle just in front of the coupler to make it as close as possible to the turbo.
     

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