2G Piston ring problem

[spyderdrifter]

I'm currently trying to install my pistons, but I can't get the ring spacer to lock together I guess. I know end to end, is way too big of a ring to fit the piston, but the ends won't mesh together. The links are the same size from end to end. What can I do?

Also, the ring packaging says install the middle and top rings with the arrows/ dots up. There's none of either. Only engravings for ring sizes. Other side is blank. Which side up?

 

[bryanwheat]

The ends don't mesh together, they just butt together and the rails hold them in place.

 

[spyderdrifter]

Yeah, thanks. I ended up looking at my old ones. Doesn't matter now. Broke a damn ring. So much for having my car running this weekend...


Is there a specific way for these rings to be oriented? The middle rings have a grove on one side and not the other. I'm guessing that's important....

 

[punxnotdead185]

You want the groove in the middle ring to be facing down and the two compression ring end gaps opposite of each other but also not inline with the oil ring end gaps, if they are setup correctly the top compression ring will be at 12 o clock, second ring at 6 o clock, top oil ring at 3 o clock and the bottom oil ring at 9 o clock

 

[spyderdrifter]

You want the groove in the middle ring to be facing down and the two compression ring end gaps opposite of each other but also not inline with the oil ring end gaps, if they are setup correctly the top compression ring will be at 12 o clock, second ring at 6 o clock, top oil ring at 3 o clock and the bottom oil ring at 9 o clock

And which position for the spacer? Just mid way between its' two rings?

 

[punxnotdead185]

If you're talking the spacer between the oil rings then yes I just put that end half way between the top and bottom oil ring end gaps

 

[spyderdrifter]

Thanks. That was the one I was revering to.

 

[spyderdrifter]

Ok, I finally got my replacement piston ring today that broke while installing them last weekend. The ring the company sent me, is the same diameter, same thickness, and has same gap size. However, my broken one has a tapered outer edge with a grove, this new one has niether. Should I still use it, or go through the hassle of waiting even longer to get my engine together? Here are a couple pics:

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The ring on the right is the broken one, new one on left...

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Would it be safe, or would I just be screwing myself over¿

 

[3kgt2nv]

instead of a stepped edge it could be tapered. I would contact the company as it looks like they sent you the wrong ring in the set

 

[spyderdrifter]

I called, and despite calling during their business hours, all I got was a recording saying they were closed. This 'new' ring doesn't even look like the top ring on the piston either. The broken one is the middle ring.

 

[My1GLaser]

The broken one looks like the 2nd ring (oil scraper, hence the shape of the outer edge)

The new one looks like the top ring in my Wiseco set.

Sorry, but I would not install that in the 2nd ring slot on my piston.

I thought the 2nd ring was a little wider than the top ring in my set of rings...

Are you building a 6 or 7 bolt? .020 or .040 over?

 

[spyderdrifter]

The broken one looks like the 2nd ring (oil scraper, hence the shape of the outer edge)

The new one looks like the top ring in my Wiseco set.

Sorry, but I would not install that in the 2nd ring slot on my piston.

I thought the 2nd ring was a little wider than the top ring in my set of rings...

Are you building a 6 or 7 bolt? .020 or .040 over?

It's a 0.040 over 7-bolt. I compared the new one to one of the top rings because.I thought the same thing, but the top rings are thinner than this one. My thought now is that it probably is the right 2nd grove ring, but from a different brand even though the customer service tard told me it would be the same brand. I'm waiting on a reply from one person before I decide to use this ring or not.

 

[My1GLaser]

It is NOT like any 2nd ring on the several 4G63 motors I have built! The 2nd ring has a scraper "blade" around the outer circumference of the ring.

That ring has a taper on the inside circumference of the ring which is the design of a top ring. The combustion pressure gets around that taper and forces the ring up against to cylinder wall. The 2nd ring has a scraper blade to scrap oil off the cyl wall on its way down the bore.

It might not be the same as your top ring, but I wouldn't put that in the 2nd ring slot on my motor. I have had sh_tty delays like this on my builds and it was worth the wait every time. Sorry though, I have a whole set of .020 over rings and I would have sent you a 2nd ring if yours wasn't .040 over

 

[spyderdrifter]

Yeah, I hate the waiting, but I'm not wanting to pull this engine back out again. I have decided on future builds involving pistons, to buy a spare set of rings to avoid this delima.

 

[BogusSVO]

The broken ring is still a compression ring and has nothing to do with oil control

The oil scraper set is the 3 pieces in the botton groove, 2 rings and a spacer.

The broken ring with the outer step is a low friction ring.

The replacement 2nd ring is a std design ring.

Get the proper stepped ring for your build.

 

[spyderdrifter]

The broken ring is still a compression ring and has nothing to do with oil control

The oil scraper set is the 3 pieces in the botton groove, 2 rings and a spacer.

The broken ring with the outer step is a low friction ring.

The replacement 2nd ring is a std design ring.

Get the proper stepped ring for your build.

Yeah, I've been working on getting the proper ring. I'm not a fan of mis-matched critical parts. I just got off the phone with the vendor (won't say who they are so no one thinks bad of them, they're actually a great vendor site). They're sending me the set that the replacement ring came out of, and it's their last 0.040 over set. I should have gone only 0.020, hating it now. But they only charged me for the shipping so I guess I can't complain.

 

[spyderdrifter]

Ok, I got all my rings today so I started assembly finally. Pistons are now in the block, did 1 & 4, then 2 & 3. Torqued 1 & 4 then rotated for the other two, and I was a little harder to turn the crank than usual. I torqued the other two and continued rotating and still having the hesitation. Is this normal since the block was honed and got new rings? Or could a ring have been done wrong and has now gouged the f@*% out of my cylinder walls? I can't see that being the issue since they wouldn't have gone into the cylinders as easily as they did. Was still a little pain to slide them down, but nothing was unusual.

 

[My1GLaser]

Did you oil the heck out of the pistons when you installed them and the cyl wall? I doubt you can gouge the cyl wall that bad by hand at 20 rpms I wouldn't worry too much unless its so difficult that you can't turn it by hand with a normal size ratchet. If you need to get out the breaker bar to turn it then I would start to worry.

I remember reading a similar problem recently...ok, I found the thread.

The crank can have 15-20 ft/lb of resistance when turning with all four pistons installed. http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/cyl...ank-hard-turn-just-3-pistons-installed-2.html Post #38 from JAM.

 

[spyderdrifter]

I did oil the cyl walls and pistons both. I could turn it with a wrench I hooked up to the flywheel bolts. After I torqued the rod nuts, I went ahead and turn the crank a couple more times. Still felt like the same amount of resistance, yet less at the same time. I'll read that link though, for the hell of it, couldn't hurt.

 

[spyder1219]

So I take it by bogusSVO, that slight bevel in the bottom of the second ring is mandatory for a DSM?

I ask ### I am damn close to buying a Chrysler 2.7L set. The tech on the phone told me he couldn't identify a bevel thru the plastic for number 2 ring?

 

[spyderdrifter]

I'm still not sure if the bevel is required or not. The set I got today is the set my original replacement came from, and there's no bevels on the #2 rings. I just want my parts to match and be the right parts. They're in right now, and aside from them being tight while turning (because of the hone and new rings), there's no problems. We'll see once it fires up though.

 

[BogusSVO]

I would not say the bevel is mandtory, But I like the parts to match so everything is equal.

Depending on the maker of the rings and the engineer that designed them, and what the end use is is what style is in the box.

Now some compines will use the same part number for many apps, so some compomises are made. So they have to keep less stocking part numbers.

 

[spyderdrifter]

^ that's good to know, as well as a relief that the bevels aren't mandatory. I'm just glad they're now all the same. Got my pistons in last night too, so hoping I'm only a couple days from start up. Should have the head on tonight so I can start priming. Then timing everything again.

 

[spyder1219]

So the next question is, can i use a 1.5 thick top and second ring instead of the 1.2 top and 1.5 second rings that came with my original set? I am assuming the heat would cause the top ring to expand more, and being 0.3 wider already would create a bad situation.

 

[BogusSVO]

A 1.5mm ring shoud not even fit in the ring land groove machined for a 1.2mm ring