PICS INSIDE: will my cylinder head seal the OEM MLS wisemen help?

[Suparata]

You're a ####ing moron, and have no clue what goes on in a machine shop. Little do you know that the Majority of machine shops out there use the table-top stone surfacer. I use it everyday at work, and even though it LOOKS bad to a newb who doesn't know the difference, surfaces like that are perfectly fine for use on composite gaskets. I'm amazed everyday at the amount of people I see who think stuff has to Look pretty to be right.

Interrupt13, Did you Tell the machine shop before they worked the head that you were using a metal headgasket? I didn't see mention anywhere of that. IF you didn't, they are going to assume you are using a stock/composite gasket (because that's the general assumption of every machine shop), otherwise they would have used a finer stone to surface the head. You can either take it back to them and have them lap it smooth, or you can just do it yourself just like you did the block. It's not their fault that they used a rough stone to surface the head, it's yours for not telling them what kind of gasket you're going to use. They didn't do anything wrong at all. I don't see a chunk out of a combustion chamber anywhere in your pics either?

It’s surprising that a guy who grinds the surface of the heads does not recognize a “belted” surface right away especially when it is one of the worst that can be done. You need to at least reconsider a few things you’ve learned about how things should be done. Shops like those make a bad name to machine shops in general. And the surface should be as smooth as possible every time no matter what kind of gasket will be used. But some hungry mother ####ers out there would do whatever it takes to crank the work up and get it “out the door” as soon as they can without making sure everything is done right.

Have you guys heard about PCD and CBN lately? Welcome to the 21st Century!

Interrupt13
To answer your question that head needs a better surface but that might not be the only thing it needs. What kind of work in general one should expect from a shop that has the balls to surface a head like that. I always encouraged people to use local shops for their rebuilding needs but not shops like that.

 

[interrupt13]

A couple of observations.
1: The head should be disassembled before any cutting, milling, or grinding occurs on the deck surface. Otherwise the intake valves can be clipped on the portion that is closest to the deck, thereby reducing the valve margin.

2: Most MLS (multi layer steel) head gaskets do have a (RA) number or a surface finish requirement range. Therefore the deck surfaces of the head and block can be either too rough, or too smooth.

3: My biggest concern with the belt sander type resurfacers is that A: it is difficult to determine how much materital is removed, and B: many of these types of machines do not cut parallel, or square. As the part to be machined is just pressed against the belt, therefore more material can be removed from say the #1 cylinder intake corner, than is removed from the #4 cylinder exhaust corner. Yes the surface will be flat, but not necessarily parallel or square on all axises.

4: When I think of a engine machine shop I think of a place that specializes in machining operations as they pertain to internal combustion engines. Not some local dude that works in the back portion of the building, at the local auto parts store.


As far as sunk valves go here are some things to consider. When you take your head in for a valve grind you tend to get what you pay for. Also reseating the vales is a machining process, therefore material will be removed. What happens is that the valves themselves will have their faces resurfaced, and the stems clipped accordingly, the seats in the head will be re-cut or ground. This has the effect of making the valve sit deeper into head if measured from the deck surface, thereby increasing chamber volume. If you pay for the minimal priced valve job that is what you will get, minimal time and effort spent on your head. With some of the older valve seat grinding equipment with hand held pilots and stones it is very time consuming to machine all of the valve seats to the same depth. As they need to be individually measured, and adjusted. Some other machines such as the Serdi use cutters to machine the valve seats, and the machine can be set up to cut all of the seats to the same depth. But remember this you are unlikely too find such a machine in the back room of some parts store, with someone qualified to operate it.

The shop I took the head to is nothing but a machine shop, they are not a parts store.
I know nothing about machinery, so I wouldn't know how they cut the seats but, I do know how they did the valves... he had a drill chuck-like device with some kind of cutting stone/wheel and the valve goes in the chuck, and the stone/wheel cuts it at an angle while the valve spins in the chuck... is that how most valves are done in the 21st century? My dad said alot of the machinery this guy had was REALLY old like 40 years old... man this sucks im seriously contemplating getting this head sent out or getting a new one because the more I think about it the more i wonder if the cam bores are straight... a warped head can be flattened but, the cams cant be fixed that easily from what I read. gah anyone have a head?

 

[DsMWookie]

Its not the end of the world heads are a dime a dozen....If you need some cams let me know i got a set of factory ones laying in my car wrapped up. I just installed HKS 264's.


I would send it off or find a shop with up to date technology.

 

[dima126]

how much boost area you planning on running?

 

[interrupt13]

Its not the end of the world heads are a dime a dozen....If you need some cams let me know i got a set of factory ones laying in my car wrapped up. I just installed HKS 264's.


I would send it off or find a shop with up to date technology.

I've decided to get a new head.
Is there something about using my cams in a new head I dont know about? Maybe you're saying they might have bent with the head? Know where i can get a head thats surfaced for an mls?

 

[interrupt13]

how much boost area you planning on running?

stock boost for now even though i have alot of mods i dont want to break anything because i have a trip that i have to make soon. I dont have a boost controller for a reason

 

[RiceKiller_TSi]

Seeing those images of that head resurface was so horrifying I had to call my machine shop to find out how they are going to do my head. Fortunately this guy is using a milling machine and not a belt grinder. whew.

 

[interrupt13]

Seeing those images of that head resurface was so horrifying I had to call my machine shop to find out how they are going to do my head. Fortunately this guy is using a milling machine and not a belt grinder. whew.

ask him how they're going to surface it not how they're going to cut it
if belt ask him how new the belt is.. if its real new it could give u a shitty surface like mine

 

[SlowSpyder]

Resurfacing and cutting are basically the same thing. Material is going to be machined off no matter what. What you need to do is find a machine shop that uses a milling machine or a dedicated machine that resurfaces/cuts cylinder heads(not the typical belt sander). Also find a shop that will straighten the head using the oven method before they actually do any type of machining on the head.

 

[RiceKiller_TSi]

What you need to do is find a machine shop that uses a milling machine or a dedicated machine that resurfaces/cuts cylinder heads(not the typical belt sander).

This is what my machine shop said they have. Shop owner told me that with the milling machine the head would be perfect for the OEM or any metal head gasket. Cool beans.

 

[interrupt13]

Resurfacing and cutting are basically the same thing. Material is going to be machined off no matter what. What you need to do is find a machine shop that uses a milling machine or a dedicated machine that resurfaces/cuts cylinder heads(not the typical belt sander). Also find a shop that will straighten the head using the oven method before they actually do any type of machining on the head.

it's a little bit too late to oven my head now because its been cut bent. ovening it would make the ends come down and it would have to be cut again most likely right?

 

[SlowSpyder]

it's a little bit too late to oven my head now because its been cut bent. ovening it would make the ends come down and it would have to be cut again most likely right?

It is too late since the head has had alot of material removed. It would have been better if they used an oven to straighten the head first. By placing the cylinder head on a precision machined cast iron block and putting some extra long feeler gauges in the right spot you can actually straighten the head to within spec. But in your case the damage has been done. Have someone who knows what they are doing and ask them if the head can be saved, if they say the head is junk then try and get your money back or atleast have them get you a good cylinder head

 

[defrag010]

It’s surprising that a guy who grinds the surface of the heads does not recognize a “belted” surface right away especially when it is one of the worst that can be done. You need to at least reconsider a few things you’ve learned about how things should be done. Shops like those make a bad name to machine shops in general. And the surface should be as smooth as possible every time no matter what kind of gasket will be used. But some hungry mother ####ers out there would do whatever it takes to crank the work up and get it “out the door” as soon as they can without making sure everything is done right.

It came out wrong, I was only trying to point out that people had been making judgements just by what they see in pictures.
One time, I did this Perfect surface job on a pair of 305 chevy heads. Low RA, everything was just great. I had the parts guy take them up to the customer counter, and his hands were greasy. He got greasy fingerprints on them, and set them up on the shelf to where the heads were covered in machine dust within a few hours. When the customer came to pick them up, he threw a FIT. We went and got some carb cleaner and cleaned off the surface of the heads, but it never looks as good as when you just take it off of the surfacer. I assured the guy that the surface job was perfect, and I told him to use some rubbing alcohol before he puts the motor together to clean them up, but he would Not pay for them until the surfaces looked perfect. He made me take them back to the machine and swipe them across the stone a few times to make sure they looked clean. For all he knew, I could have taken them back there and done an un-even, horrible surface job, but he would have been happy because it would look good.
Also, the layout juice we use is a dark brown color, and sometimes when it barely gets to the surface of the fluid, it looks like the surface is ghetto when it's realy not.

 

[RiceKiller_TSi]

It came out wrong, I was only trying to point out that people had been making judgements just by what they see in pictures.
One time, I did this Perfect surface job on a pair of 305 chevy heads. Low RA, everything was just great. I had the parts guy take them up to the customer counter, and his hands were greasy. He got greasy fingerprints on them, and set them up on the shelf to where the heads were covered in machine dust within a few hours. When the customer came to pick them up, he threw a FIT. We went and got some carb cleaner and cleaned off the surface of the heads, but it never looks as good as when you just take it off of the surfacer. I assured the guy that the surface job was perfect, and I told him to use some rubbing alcohol before he puts the motor together to clean them up, but he would Not pay for them until the surfaces looked perfect. He made me take them back to the machine and swipe them across the stone a few times to make sure they looked clean. For all he knew, I could have taken them back there and done an un-even, horrible surface job, but he would have been happy because it would look good.
Also, the layout juice we use is a dark brown color, and sometimes when it barely gets to the surface of the fluid, it looks like the surface is ghetto when it's realy not.

Not to be funny but people have always judged the quality of a job by how the finished product looks. I just got my head back from the machine shop and that thing SPARKLES like a brand new head. The surface is extremely smooth and when I took delivery of the head it was greased in the right spots and put into a heavy clear plastic bag.

On the other hand had they brought it to me with oil and dust on it I would have questioned the quality of the job. (ex. Its all about appearance... would you let a bum wash your $80,000 dollar Mercedes? Not me. I'd want some GQ looking professionals to do it.)

 

[defrag010]

That just doesn't make sense to me. Judging quality of something by appearance is for things like Paint finish.
Do you see the machine work on your motor once it's installed? You don't see it, and after about 3-4 minutes of the engine running, the machine work doesn't look so pretty anymore. I'd rather have a Bum wash my mercedes if I knew he did a better job that the GQ guys dressed in a suit. They'd be too afraid to get their suits wet to do a good job. ! !

Like I said, I could go take some junk head with cracks and where the valves don't seal, clean it up, do a horribly un-even surface job, and paint it and make it all pretty and new-looking. People would rather have it than an un-cleaned head with a perfect surface and valve job. All of my customers who have been building engines for years on end know that it' about the quality of the work, and not how pretty it looks. It's just the engine building n00bs and the dealership parts people who complain about the heads not looking pretty.

 

[RiceKiller_TSi]

That just doesn't make sense to me. Judging quality of something by appearance is for things like Paint finish.
Do you see the machine work on your motor once it's installed? You don't see it, and after about 3-4 minutes of the engine running, the machine work doesn't look so pretty anymore. I'd rather have a Bum wash my mercedes if I knew he did a better job that the GQ guys dressed in a suit. They'd be too afraid to get their suits wet to do a good job. .

I think you get my point even though you don't want to admit it. If you have no idea of the type of work a shop does because you have NEVER used them before or heard of them you will most likely LOOK at the quality of the stuff they've already done. And YES there are millions upon millions of people that care about the way the product looks when they are spending THEIR money on it. Even if you did great machine work I'd still want the head to look like it was worked on by pros and not greasy handed apes. Who said anything about painting a head to make it shiny? Its made of aluminum... it will shine pretty good if cleaned up.

I'm not here to argue with you, only to shed some light on why someone would be pissed with the appearance of their machined parts. Lets not be ridiculous, of course quality is important but so is appearance. Why not do a good job AND make the part look good?

 

[defrag010]

aluminum will clean up most of the time, yeah, but there are sometimes where you can't get the oil stains out even with a wire brush. Belive me, I've cleaned my fair share of alum. heads.

No, you totally misinterpreted what I was trying to say. You can't judge proper machine work by the way it looks. If you think you can, you need to re-adjust. Like I've said about 3 or 4 times already, You can't See if a valve seals or not. You Can't see if the stem height is the correct height. You can't see if the surface of the head is true by just looking at it. You can't notice the thousandths of an inch difference in things just by eyesight. People make the association that Clean = good. If one machine shop is clean and neat, that doens't mean they do any better work than a machine shop that is dirty and disorganized. What you're saying is that all the Clean people who don't get dirty and who make their heads look all pretty do better work than the greasemonkies who get dirty and spend more Focus on doing good machine work than cosmetics do.
What I'm trying to say is that I have Seen Tons of People With My Own Eyes Every Day not be concerned about trueness of the machine work, but whether or not they can see their refleciton in it. These people don't know a cylinder head from their ass. It takes a machinist and someone who has experience building motors to know what Quality work looks like.
The reason people don't do a good job AND make the heads look pretty is because the long time motor builders who get work done don't care what it looks like. Most people don't care what it looks like as long as it is done right.

Let's put it this way... If you were going to buy a car... and you came upon this Mint looking 1G AWD. I mean this thing looks showroom new. You start it up, though, and it knocks, sputters, and won't hold an idle. At the next lot, you see a Decent shape 1G AWD. The paint is OK, and the car looks ok in general but not showroom new. You start it up and it runs like a Dream and shifts like butter. Which one would you get? What I'm trying to compare cylinder heads to is no different than this hypothetical situation.

 

[RiceKiller_TSi]

It takes a machinist and someone who has experience building motors to know what Quality work looks like.

Thats true for the most part but if you look at that surface job on page one you will understand that you can sometimes eyeball crappy work. Anyway, take it easy.