PICS INSIDE: will my cylinder head seal the OEM MLS wisemen help?

[interrupt13]

hey guys im about to put my head back on after being cut for warpage and the machine shop i took it to are morons they dont even know how much they cut off, and the head looks like they put it on a table top sander (where the top of the table is a moving belt) that had what looks to be like a 60 or 80 grit belt (judging by the marks on the sealing side of the head) to scuff it up or whatever (i guess they assumed i was using a graphite gasket) anyway.. my BLOCK is nice and shiny i did it myself as its real smooth no scratches or anything but im wondering will the 'scratched' head cause a problem for the MLS to seal? i have copper spray and my plan as of now is to spray the MLS a couple times and let it dry in between each spray to give me a couple layers... is there any way i can buff the head and get those scratch marks out? or are they negligible (you can BARELY feel them with your nail if u run across, i will take pics) the head was rebuilt by the shop and everything i just think they dont know much about MLS gaskets (as they build mostly dirt track 350's and shit like that)..... peace of mind is what im looking for and maybe some helpful experience from people who've done this.. everyone keeps telling me to EXPECT to push coolant and i hate to hear that because thats why i pulled this head to STOP pushing coolant in the first place.. anyway thanks for the time and reading my incoherent post (posted at 4:52am after reading tons of head install posts on here). look forward to some of the wisemen responses...

oh and i almost forgot im going to be using ARP head studs and running stock boost on a big16g... for now... also any tips on installing the head studs would be helpful such as using the moly lube on both sides of the stud or just one.. stuff like that.. ok i think thats it i promise i wont read over my post again and find more shit to type haha! thanks
-mike

 

[interrupt13]

here are pics
keep in mind images sometimes tend to make things look worse than they really are... however that one scratch that is prevalent between the two headbolt holes is the one i am kinda worried about... In the 3rd and 4th images you can see the scratch im talking about

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(if you look carefully you can see a nice chunk missing out of my combustion chamber)

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Here is the first image of the scratch: (if you look carefully you can see a nice chunk missing out of my combustion chamber)

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Here is the second image of the scratch: (if you look carefully you can see a nice chunk missing out of my combustion chamber)

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the areas on the valves that look blurry is where i polished them inadvertantly when i went over the surface with 400grit sandpaper in an attempt to smooth out the roughness of the machine shop's incompetent sanding...


so what do you guys think?

 

[DSMJim]

Aargh.. I had my head skimmed and it sure as hell doesn't look like that. Thats brutal. I think your right thats a belt sander alright.

Honestly I don't know if thats gonna seal or not cause the surface is not flat its gonna have ridges up and down all across the head. I would probably take it to another machine shop who can do the work properly and ask them if it's ok and see if they can repair it.

 

[interrupt13]

is it possible to fix the surface without cutting it more? im afraid to take anymore off in serious amounts because they (the other shop) have no clue how much they took off (according to the guy he said no more than .009 or 10) so basically if i DID take it to someone else could they fix it without messing my clearance up more? or does it matter since im using the oem MLS and its super thick... thanks for the reply

 

[loweperf]

Was that a machine shop or a butcher shop? Seriously I'd have it resurfaced. For a Cometic gasket (or any other MLS)it has to have a RA under 50. That's no where close. Also the last intake vavle on #4 looks sunk? Usually you'll need a shop that uses a wet grinder to get that kinda surface. Ask before you take it if they have an RA tester if they don't know what your talking about go elsewhere. I have the same problem right now but my head looked alot better. It's ok at low boost but at 29psi it's pressurizing the coolant system.

 

[interrupt13]

Was that a machine shop or a butcher shop? Seriously I'd have it resurfaced. For a Cometic gasket (or any other MLS)it has to have a RA under 50. That's no where close. Also the last intake vavle on #4 looks sunk? Usually you'll need a shop that uses a wet grinder to get that kinda surface. Ask before you take it if they have an RA tester if they don't know what your talking about go elsewhere. I have the same problem right now but my head looked alot better. It's ok at low boost but at 29psi it's pressurizing the coolant system.

What do you mean sunk?

Also what is an RA rating?

I'm only going to be running 10psi (stock boost) do you think i'll have a problem?

 

[loweperf]

RA is roughness average, and is a measure of how rough the surface is. Your's is too rough. The last valve in the head looks lower in the head than the rest of them. They may have ground the seat too far, the valves should be all the same height on the seat and at the stem. I don't know if it is it may just look that way in the picture. I also wouldn't worry about getting more taken off because you can still see the pink on the surface of the head where it was machined this means they took very little off. I think it will leak if you put it on.

 

[DsMWookie]

Heres what you do. Go to a REPUTABLE MACHINE SHOP not a freakin carpenter.

You ask them to check and see if it can be machined anymore. If they say yes you spend the 40-60$ to get it swiped. And whola! If you half ass it and put that head on without it getting a good mating surface the head gasket costs as much as it would've to just get it resurfaced right the first time. Plus its a whole lot more hassle.



Oh and go kick the guy in the nuts who did that to ur head. Then jump on a log with your legs spread for letting him do it


Really just spend the 40-60$ and make sure its going to seal up good and not have to worry about it.

 

[DSMvroom]

ya totally sorry about that man, that really sucks.

There are some DEEP ridges in that thing :-(

cross your fingers, mine are crossed for ya.

 

[interrupt13]

RA is roughness average, and is a measure of how rough the surface is. Your's is too rough. The last valve in the head looks lower in the head than the rest of them. They may have ground the seat too far, the valves should be all the same height on the seat and at the stem. I don't know if it is it may just look that way in the picture. I also wouldn't worry about getting more taken off because you can still see the pink on the surface of the head where it was machined this means they took very little off. I think it will leak if you put it on.

valve looks sunk maybe because the others are open slightly because of the cams most likely... i have not seen any 'sunk seats' so it might just be the image... tell me a little about that 'pink' ur talking about, someone told me thats 'layout fluid' but didn't give a thorough explanation for what it is (some have suggested its to check valves for leaks after/during lapping) by the way thanks for telling me about RA i looked it up (like a good little dsmer should ) and i figured out it should be around 20-40 (for ford modulars).. if anyone can tell me the exact RA spec for the mitsu MLS i would be grateful

 

[interrupt13]

Heres what you do. Go to a REPUTABLE MACHINE SHOP not a freakin carpenter.

You ask them to check and see if it can be machined anymore. If they say yes you spend the 40-60$ to get it swiped. And whola! If you half ass it and put that head on without it getting a good mating surface the head gasket costs as much as it would've to just get it resurfaced right the first time. Plus its a whole lot more hassle.



Oh and go kick the guy in the nuts who did that to ur head. Then jump on a log with your legs spread for letting him do it


Really just spend the 40-60$ and make sure its going to seal up good and not have to worry about it.

@ carpenter yeah man ok the surfacing i can sorta UNDERSTAND because they're rednecks and expect people to use composite graphite fel-blows but, not knowing how much they took of is QUITE upsetting... one person suggested my head was surfaced on pavement @ 70mph

i didn't plan on putting it on thats why i posted here... i am definetly not putting it on as is..

*kicks guy in the nuts*

*jumps on a log with legs spread*

do you think the head can be cut anymore?
when using the MLS how much EXTRA do you get? can anyone tell me this?

 

[interrupt13]

ya totally sorry about that man, that really sucks.

There are some DEEP ridges in that thing :-(

cross your fingers, mine are crossed for ya.

the pictures may be decieving.. the overall finish is most definetly represented in the FIRST picture... thats how it looks overall... but thanks for the support i'll keep mine crossed too

 

[defrag010]

Heres what you do. Go to a REPUTABLE MACHINE SHOP not a freakin carpenter.

You ask them to check and see if it can be machined anymore. If they say yes you spend the 40-60$ to get it swiped. And whola! If you half ass it and put that head on without it getting a good mating surface the head gasket costs as much as it would've to just get it resurfaced right the first time. Plus its a whole lot more hassle.



Oh and go kick the guy in the nuts who did that to ur head. Then jump on a log with your legs spread for letting him do it


Really just spend the 40-60$ and make sure its going to seal up good and not have to worry about it.

You're a ####ing moron, and have no clue what goes on in a machine shop. Little do you know that the Majority of machine shops out there use the table-top stone surfacer. I use it everyday at work, and even though it LOOKS bad to a newb who doesn't know the difference, surfaces like that are perfectly fine for use on composite gaskets. I'm amazed everyday at the amount of people I see who think stuff has to Look pretty to be right.

Interrupt13, Did you Tell the machine shop before they worked the head that you were using a metal headgasket? I didn't see mention anywhere of that. IF you didn't, they are going to assume you are using a stock/composite gasket (because that's the general assumption of every machine shop), otherwise they would have used a finer stone to surface the head. You can either take it back to them and have them lap it smooth, or you can just do it yourself just like you did the block. It's not their fault that they used a rough stone to surface the head, it's yours for not telling them what kind of gasket you're going to use. They didn't do anything wrong at all. I don't see a chunk out of a combustion chamber anywhere in your pics either?

 

[interrupt13]

You're a ####ing moron, and have no clue what goes on in a machine shop. Little do you know that the Majority of machine shops out there use the table-top stone surfacer. I use it everyday at work, and even though it LOOKS bad to a newb who doesn't know the difference, surfaces like that are perfectly fine for use on composite gaskets. I'm amazed everyday at the amount of people I see who think stuff has to Look pretty to be right.

Interrupt13, Did you Tell the machine shop before they worked the head that you were using a metal headgasket? I didn't see mention anywhere of that. IF you didn't, they are going to assume you are using a stock/composite gasket (because that's the general assumption of every machine shop), otherwise they would have used a finer stone to surface the head. You can either take it back to them and have them lap it smooth, or you can just do it yourself just like you did the block. It's not their fault that they used a rough stone to surface the head, it's yours for not telling them what kind of gasket you're going to use. They didn't do anything wrong at all. I don't see a chunk out of a combustion chamber anywhere in your pics either?

I did tell them i'm going to be using a metal headgasket.

The chunk missing out of the combustion chamber is in picture 2, the chamber closest to my hand. its also on the SIDE of the chamber closest to my hand. I dont know if I said this already but, the chunk was there when I pulled the head, i'm not blaming the machine shop for that. Just thought i'd point it out

 

[defrag010]

ahh ok, well then I'd take it back to them and tell them to lap it smooth like they should have done in the first place.

 

[interrupt13]

can they lap it smooth without disassembling it? and will it affect the clearances? The MLS gasket is pretty thick so im thinking they can cut quite a bit and still be in spec..

 

[defrag010]

yeah, they will be able to do it without dissassembling it, it looks like they surfaced it with the valves installed in your pics anyway.

 

[loweperf]

Here's my opinion. Pic 1--next to the left intake valve you can see pink in the surface of the head which means they took little to nothing off the surface.Also on pic 1 the last valve in the head looks low-lower than the rest anyway.Pic 2,3,4 next to the #4 cyl. From 1 head bolt to the next is a serious gouge. Scraped across something causing the alum to be galled. Let alone you have scraches all over the surface.

"You're a ####ing moron, and have no clue what goes on in a machine shop. Little do you know that the Majority of machine shops out there use the table-top stone surfacer. I use it everyday at work, and even though it LOOKS bad to a newb who doesn't know the difference, surfaces like that are perfectly fine for use on composite gaskets. I'm amazed everyday at the amount of people I see who think stuff has to Look pretty to be right. "

I must be one too. Cause I don't think that's a good job. But I have used a surface grinder for many years and if I ever got a surface job like that no matter what gasket I was using I would refuse to even pay for it! This is the kinda shop I was talking about that don't know what an RA tester is!!!

 

[interrupt13]

yeah, they will be able to do it without dissassembling it, it looks like they surfaced it with the valves installed in your pics anyway.

no i did that

i attempted to smooth it with an orbital sander and 800grit crocus cloth on it... the valves were being annoying... i switched to 400grit sandpapwer when the 800 wasn't doing anything and the valves were ripping the paper ... they're kinda shiny now

 

[interrupt13]

Here's my opinion. Pic 1--next to the left intake valve you can see pink in the surface of the head which means they took little to nothing off the surface.Also on pic 1 the last valve in the head looks low-lower than the rest anyway.Pic 2,3,4 next to the #4 cyl. From 1 head bolt to the next is a serious gouge. Scraped across something causing the alum to be galled. Let alone you have scraches all over the surface.

"You're a ####ing moron, and have no clue what goes on in a machine shop. Little do you know that the Majority of machine shops out there use the table-top stone surfacer. I use it everyday at work, and even though it LOOKS bad to a newb who doesn't know the difference, surfaces like that are perfectly fine for use on composite gaskets. I'm amazed everyday at the amount of people I see who think stuff has to Look pretty to be right. "

I must be one too. Cause I don't think that's a good job. But I have used a surface grinder for many years and if I ever got a surface job like that no matter what gasket I was using I would refuse to even pay for it! This is the kinda shop I was talking about that don't know what an RA tester is!!!

i see what you mean about the valve being lower but thats just the perspective of the camera, its looking almost dead at it while the other valves to the left are from an angle.. the valve is fine

and i understand what u mean about the layout fluid, i'm assuming the covered the bottom and then started to cut... and if its still visible then it wasn't much... right?

 

[loweperf]

Yes! Also if your sander hit the valves so will the grinder.

 

[defrag010]

yeah, if the seat was cut too much and the valve sunk down in there, you'd see the shiny halo of the seat visible around the outer ring of the valve.

I wasn't trying to be an ass, I just had a bad day at work. I have just had so many customers form opinions on mine and my other headbuilders' work just because the head doesn't Look perfect. Eventually, it ticks you off. Our shop usually checks the RA of the surface to make sure it isn't too much. Most of the time, some of the surfacer shavings will stick into the etches from the surfacing stone and make it Look like it's a crappy job. Either that, or some oil residue will stay in the etch marks while I'm assembling the head, and make it look like it wasn't even surfaced at all.

My point is that you can't judge RA just by looks alone. You can feel the etch marks on a pretty low RA, so just saying that you can feel them doesn't mean it's a bad job either. It's clearly obvious that whoever did his head didn't Clean it before sending it out because of the gunk In the coolant passages, the carbon residue and pink stuff in the chambers, and the caked on grime that's on the exterior of the head.

interrupt13: Do you have any carb cleaner around? Try spraying some carb cleaner on the head surface and combustion chambers to see if it cleans up an looks any better. If you're gonna take back to the machine shop, have them check the RA of the surface first before they re-do it (if necessary)

 

[SlowSpyder]

before you do anything you might wanna check the head for straightness(straight edge with some feeler gauges). You should have found a shop that can straighten the head with oven and not just recut it until its straight. Most likely youll need to have that head resurfaced again in order to use an mls headgasket. Unless my eyes are playing tricks on me, some of your valves are sunk in. If they cut the seats and didnt grind the tips of the valves then youll have some valvetrain geometry problems. Honestly I myself wouldnt use that head but its up to you.

 

[DsMWookie]

Just go get it checked and see if you have enough material to get it resurfaced. If so take it to a reputable machine shop and let them do it correctly.

Defrag: That shit is obviously a hack job from some bumpkin.......Trust what you want and I am not attacking your workmanship but that is a horrible looking surface not to mention no specifications just let me take a little off the top....??????? wtf is he my barber?


Hey if Defrag does this work mail your head to him and let him do it.

 

[Big Woo]

A couple of observations.
1: The head should be disassembled before any cutting, milling, or grinding occurs on the deck surface. Otherwise the intake valves can be clipped on the portion that is closest to the deck, thereby reducing the valve margin.

2: Most MLS (multi layer steel) head gaskets do have a (RA) number or a surface finish requirement range. Therefore the deck surfaces of the head and block can be either too rough, or too smooth.

3: My biggest concern with the belt sander type resurfacers is that A: it is difficult to determine how much materital is removed, and B: many of these types of machines do not cut parallel, or square. As the part to be machined is just pressed against the belt, therefore more material can be removed from say the #1 cylinder intake corner, than is removed from the #4 cylinder exhaust corner. Yes the surface will be flat, but not necessarily parallel or square on all axises.

4: When I think of a engine machine shop I think of a place that specializes in machining operations as they pertain to internal combustion engines. Not some local dude that works in the back portion of the building, at the local auto parts store.


As far as sunk valves go here are some things to consider. When you take your head in for a valve grind you tend to get what you pay for. Also reseating the vales is a machining process, therefore material will be removed. What happens is that the valves themselves will have their faces resurfaced, and the stems clipped accordingly, the seats in the head will be re-cut or ground. This has the effect of making the valve sit deeper into head if measured from the deck surface, thereby increasing chamber volume. If you pay for the minimal priced valve job that is what you will get, minimal time and effort spent on your head. With some of the older valve seat grinding equipment with hand held pilots and stones it is very time consuming to machine all of the valve seats to the same depth. As they need to be individually measured, and adjusted. Some other machines such as the Serdi use cutters to machine the valve seats, and the machine can be set up to cut all of the seats to the same depth. But remember this you are unlikely too find such a machine in the back room of some parts store, with someone qualified to operate it.