Oil Pump Seal problem

[talon4show]

Quick background:

Just did a 6 bolt swap in my 2G AWD. Motor is a 1991 model. Just started it up for the first time a few nights ago and everything was good. Noticed something had dripped on the ground. Couldn't find a thing and thought it was just a spill when the brake fluid reservoir over flowed from bleeding. Come back the next day and the puddle was bigger and the oil is all over the Timing belt. Clean it all over and try to pin point the leak. Take off the crank pulley and see its coming from the oil pump sprocket.

I guess that seal isn't sealing right? So we take the seal off and I clean it all really good along with the inside of the sprocket, called the "boss" I think? Put a new seal in it, still leaks.

My question is, WHAT is that hole there where the oil is coming from and why is it there? Is oil supposed to be coming from there? The way that seal and everything sits in there, I just don't see that sealing with oil pressure well enough.

*Brand new oil pump

 

[GSX_Dan]

I've had to replace 2 seals recently because the first time I blew one out due to too much oil pressure on my new motor (85psi by 3500rpm) and the second time the actual pump bearing crapped out and it spit out the seal. If the pump stem has play in it this is most than likely your problem, it should be nice and tight. The little hole I'm guessing lubricates the bearing. Also make sure you don't damage the seal when you're installing, its very easy to screw up and doesn't take a lot of force to press in.

 

[talon4show]

Yea see I am trying to figure out if oil is even supposed to be coming out og the hole period. both seals I tried were good. The shaft doesn't have any play it in. I just don't see how a seal which you "press in gently" is supposed to hold up to oil pressure. I believe I had like 80psi of oil pressure at idle at one time. Right now I am going to pull the pump off and get it replaced.

 

[pneumo]

Are you talking about the little hole behind the seal? the hole that's at the bottom? If yes, that's a drain hole for the oil that lubes the pump shaft. As you know, removing the balance shafts raises oil pressure. More pressure means that there's more oil flowing, and the drain hole might not be big enough to handle the extra flow.

The fix is simple, just drill out the hole a little bigger. You'll need to drill in two steps since the drain hole doesn't go straight through, drill a little from the outside, then drill a little from the bottom. HTH.

 

[talon4show]

Hrm, second time I have heard the "drain hole" side of the story. Understandable there. Now, since its a DRAIN, where does the oil actually come from?

 

[pneumo]

Hrm, second time I have heard the "drain hole" side of the story. Understandable there. Now, since its a DRAIN, where does the oil actually come from?

The oil comes out of the gap between the oil pump shaft and the housing. Oil is fed to the shaft so it spins smoothly, just like the main crank bearings or cam journals.

 

[pneumo]

I just noticed we have a new feature on this site. If you scroll down to the bottom of this page, there's a box with 'Similar Threads' posted. Very cool! Those threads should give you some worthwhile reading.

 

[talon4show]

Haha umm not sure if that was a sarcastic e-dick kind of post but thanks I didn't see that. But, before I posted I searched quite a few terms and have read through those threads

I got the pump off last night and took it apart, I now understand where the oil comes from haha. I am honestly hoping its just a faulty pump. I know a few people running the same pump, from the same place, with the same BS delete kit, and have no probs. Going to get a warranty exchange. Read up on the VFAQ and this time I will try this "thin layer of RTV" where the seal seats and try that and hope for the best.

What else could I do if it does still leak? Pull it back off and drill that hole out some?

 

[talon4show]

New pump should be in today. Now, should I take the seal out and RTV is a little or just leave it as it came? Could I drill the hole out JUST IN CASE or would that not be good for the pump if there is no problem?

 

[pneumo]

I'd drill out the drain hole a little. Your last oil pump gave you 80psi oil pressure at idle, the new pump will probably give you high oil pressure, too. So drill out the drain hole like I described above, in two steps. You'll have to take the new oil pump apart anyway to pack the gears with grease, so drill the drain hole and clean out the shavings while it's apart, then pack the gears with grease and reassemble.

While you're in there, you should also port the oil pressure relief bypass hole in the filter housing. This will keep the oil pressure from going too high, which should help reduce leaks in other areas.

I'm curious to see if the autosearch picks up on the terms oil pressure relief bypass porting

 

[talon4show]

Will have to take a closer look at where to drill it when I get it. I just don't want to mess it up, ya know? I will do some searching on this relieve valve as well.

EDIT: I see people with some serious probs are running like over 100psi. My oil pressure after it warmed up was only around 20-30psi and would jump up to 80 as I reved the motor

 

[talon4show]

Got the new pump. For starters, the sprocket I have fit much more snug onto this one then the last. Also, on my other pump I had to shave away some of the outside of the pump because the sprocket was rubbing. This one doesn't rub at all. SO, maybe it was just the pump

Still need to put the downpipe on, get the "castle nut" off my old one, and then put the sprocket on. I got it on last night so its sitting letting the RTV and loctite do its thing.

Now, RTV behind the sprocket. I would rather not take that seal out since it seems well seated right now. Maybe put some RTV on the outside of it where the seal meets the housing just incase or something?

 

[pneumo]

Got the new pump. For starters, the sprocket I have fit much more snug onto this one then the last. Also, on my other pump I had to shave away some of the outside of the pump because the sprocket was rubbing. This one doesn't rub at all. SO, maybe it was just the pump

Still need to put the downpipe on, get the "castle nut" off my old one, and then put the sprocket on. I got it on last night so its sitting letting the RTV and loctite do its thing.

Now, RTV behind the sprocket. I would rather not take that seal out since it seems well seated right now. Maybe put some RTV on the outside of it where the seal meets the housing just incase or something?

Yup, sounds like the old one was not so good.
Check the rubber O-ring that seals the castle nut, make sure it's good, no cracks or splits, and still fels like rubber. They get hard as a rock when they're old.

I wouldn't worry about the outside edge of the seal, that part usually seals well. It wouldn't hurt to smear a little RTV on it. Leaks usually happen at the inner edge of seals where moving parts rub on it.

 

[turboglenn]

Is this a result or running with the BS's eliminated? I've always thought that it would be better to remove the rear one and replace the Oil Pump drive gear with the mirage unit. But at the same time, leave the front BS in and just disconnect the belt. The front one has oil fed at each of the journals; and the rear one is fed from the center of the balance shaft at the oil pump connection and the excess runs off at the journals. I'm just wondering if the passages clogged from the front BS removal and the bearings inserted "off center" or twisted would rasie the Oil Pressure high enough to cause this frequently? And if my theory (although retaining 2.5 lbs of weight , that's NOT rotating anymore) is correct, thi should eliminate over pressure issues and make BS eliminator kits cheaper, as you'd only need the mirage pump gear and nothing else but a gasket or 2.

I ponder a lot of stuff like this because even though i want my car fast in teh 1/4 mile .. i'll give up that extra pound of weight, ot 2* of timing to have a motor that will run cannonbal style events reliably.

This is a lot ofthe reason i've been playing with extra features in stand alones like air and coolant temp timing retart/advace and ait and coolantl temp correction of fuel as well. My goal is a motor that will put out 425HP for extended periods of time and last at least 2 seasons of racing road course. like i said, i don't care if i'm giving up on every last bit of available HP, it just want to beat it like it's factory and know that it's fine when i take it home and park it for work in the morning

 

[DirtyBirdRacing]

Subscribed.

Bill

 

[GVR4592]

Are you just trying to get your post count up? Nobody really cares if you're "subscribing", don't post unless you have something useful to add to the topic.

 

[talon4show]

Well its on with no leaks The sprocket still rubbed a little bit for some reason but we turned the pump over with an impact for a little while and no leaks. Started it up and ran it for about 10 minutes with no leaks. Whats normal oil pressure at idle, reving, WOT, ect?

 

[DirtyBirdRacing]

Are you just trying to get your post count up? Nobody really cares if you're "subscribing", don't post unless you have something useful to add to the topic.

I'm doing it so that I can keep track of this thread because I'm interested in the outcome. This way it sends me an email and I can check it later, becasue im not able to check the forum everyday. If there's another way to do this, then I'd like to know because you are right it is kind of silly.

Bill

 

[talon4show]

Well. Put a new pump in and same thing... Ran fine last night and go to take the car to the house tonight and it starts its leaking again. Same shit. I need help

 

[blcknspo0ln]

I'm doing it so that I can keep track of this thread because I'm interested in the outcome. This way it sends me an email and I can check it later, becasue im not able to check the forum everyday. If there's another way to do this, then I'd like to know because you are right it is kind of silly.

Bill

Yo bill,
it's on top of each thread in "thread tools", just click on it and click "subscribe to thread". Don't feel bad, I know where you're coming from (the old school days where you had to post to subscribe) but the thread tools are pretty new here, anyway.

 

[pneumo]

Well its on with no leaks The sprocket still rubbed a little bit for some reason but we turned the pump over with an impact for a little while and no leaks. Started it up and ran it for about 10 minutes with no leaks. Whats normal oil pressure at idle, reving, WOT, ect?

Normal oil pressure depeds on where the sender is located. The head will have lower pressure than the oil filter housing. Pressure is also higher when the oil is cold, so it's best to look at oil pressure when the engine is fully warm.
At idle it should be around 5 to 10psi.Pressure should increase by 10psi for every 1k rpm. It should reach max pressure around 75-85psi, that's the rated pressure of the oil pressure relief valve. If pressure keeps going up at high rpm then you need to port the oil pressure relief valve port.

So the pump sprocket still rubs? It's not supposed to rub. Maybe it's time to look at the sprocket and see if it's bent, or check that it's installed correctly and without any washers on the shaft.

Have you pinpointed the leak this time? Is it in the same place as the last oil pump?

 

[DirtyBirdRacing]

Yo bill,
it's on top of each thread in "thread tools", just click on it and click "subscribe to thread". Don't feel bad, I know where you're coming from (the old school days where you had to post to subscribe) but the thread tools are pretty new here, anyway.

Oh nice, thanks for the heads up Tom.

Bill

 

[talon4show]

Well the leak was still coming from the same place. The seal was actually spinning with the sprocket inside of the housing...weird. BUT it did get fixed. Note to self and others: When doing a 6-bolt swap, use a 6-bolt oil pump sprocket! doh! Though you can tell no visual difference between the two, one leaks and the other doesn't. Unfortunately this 6-bolt I just dropped in needs a rebuild, so I found out last night after compression testing... but it doesn't leak oil haha