Oil & Air filter info > direct from Engineering

[1993-Talon-TSI]

Hey,

I work for Honeywell Consumer Products group, who makes Fram oil and air filters. I am in a Mechanical engineering position.
I have looked into the performance of both the filters that fit the 4g63 turbo engines.
(all fram part numbers ofcourse)
CA3950 6 bolt
CA7317 7 bolt

Both filters fit either 6 bolt or 7 bolt and the filtration area is greator on the ca7317 (narrow and long filter) by 4 square inches. So you can put either filter on any 4g63 turbo engine if your have the clearence, as in your O2 housing or downpipe. if you can fit the longer one in do it will have better oil filtration for your car.

Just though some people might be interested in this subject??

If anyone has any filtration questions i can give you a straight up answer from the professional engineers i work with, plus my in depth knowledge of air filters, like all the questions about Airhog,K&N, stock, and all the rest.



Mike

 

[TSIfreek]

Most of us dont use fram filters because they have a poor filter media and anti drain back valve causing heavy lifter tick at start up.

 

[1993-Talon-TSI]

So what is the most commonly used filter? I would really like to hear your reasoning behind the media quote?? i have worked in the lab with fram and the compitition and have seen just about every different type of filter come through the lab. about the antidrain back valve in fram filters,what do use instead of it to fix the startup problem??

By working for fram i am no biased and only like fram's products, if somethings better i would use it too, and fro lab testing i have yet to see any real differences??

 

[gixxer]

i like Wix myself. i think some of the napa filters are wix now as well?

 

[90eclipsegst149]

Napa uses wix filters with the first number removed.

 

[tmizer]

Great filter/oil site.

My preference, as well as another engineer I work with, in order, is:

K&N
Mobil1
Purolator PureOne.

 

[1993-Talon-TSI]

Responding to some of your comments,

As for the media being crappy in a fram, that is not true we are currently the OE supplier for honda, the honda filter, which just happens to fit our car!! offers the best filtration and life. The honda filter if by far the best filter we have in North America right now.

The comment about the ticker noise when start up"has to do with anti drain-back valve", this has no sence to it, and if you could explain the reasoning why you think it is becasue of this, i would appriciate it.means the filter you are using is easier to flow through which means it has very poor filtration properties which what a oil filter is for.
As for K&N don't even get me started, i see those filter on the test stand> pure junk, the only way they are high performance is becasue the media is so open that everything goes through so you get real good pressure, kinda defeats the purpose of an oil filter? so basically you push your uncleaned oil around faster!!

Do be tricked by flow or pressure gains, it means you will not have the same filtration properties, but if you don't care about dirty oil then, the k&n is right for you. Most of the differences you see, will not be visiable by eye as in dirty oil color and so on. Most of this knowledge is from watching a 60,000 dollar test machine in a lab show the results.

Again i am not trying to sell fram, but it does have a suppior test results to its main competitors. Also i am trying to get across all the info i have learned by working for a filtration company, when ever i hear people talking about filtration, either air or oil, i relize how much people don't actually know and how they pick a filter on the name!!

 

[tmizer]

...As for K&N don't even get me started, i see those filter on the test stand> pure junk, the only way they are high performance is becasue the media is so open that everything goes through so you get real good pressure, kinda defeats the purpose of an oil filter? so basically you push your uncleaned oil around faster!! ...

Kinda thought that's what was going on, which is why I usually use a PureOne on a new engine startup. On the other hand, I thought the K&N's where essentially relabeled Mobil1's? The topic is a bit cluttered with information and corporate conspiracy theories abound (K&N or Fram was it? Closing websites with useful filter information was one story I heard).

So, if you have any data to share with us, that'd be cool. Doesn't have to be actuall micron size, filtration %, pressure drop, flow rate numbers, heck, I'd settle for nomalized data if you'll tell us what you normalized it to.

 

[MackZ24]

Regarding Air Filters;

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/airfilter/airtest1.htm

This is a fairly well known oil site, that also did some testing on air filters. Yes it's true that the K&N Air filter may not be the greatest filtration device out there, but with the options given to use "tuners", I'd say it's still probably one of the best. The only other conical air filters you see all over the internet are ones made by nearly unknown, or not well respected companies. There are no hard numbers on any of these, as I don't believe anyone has done any testing with them similar to what was done at the above link.
Also, at the present time, I haven't heard any major stories where people have had any type of catastrophic engine failure because the K&N's let in too much dust or debris.


Regarding Oil Filters;

http://minimopar.knizefamily.net/oilfilterstudy.html

This link is like the above but without the testing. It is a comparison of different oil filters out there, which companies' are actually rebranded ones made by someone else, etc. I just thought a lot of people would find this useful and it would help dispel some myths.


1993-Talon-TSI> It would seem that what you claim is still slightly biased towards the company that you work for, which is completely understandable. A lot of people have tested different oil and air filters, and found results differing from what you claim. Although it's completely understandable, many times when people work for a certain company, or even are around others for long enough that do, they believe that their product is the be-all and end-all in whichever area. Now, I am saying this with the utmost respect for your company and your job, since I don't have much experience with Fram's products, or know exactly what your position is. The only thing I would recommend, is that if you know these products are better than another, some definitey comparisons with the accompanying data and pictures would prove this, rather than making it seem like an opinion.

 

[Defiant]

As for the media being crappy in a fram, that is not true we are currently the OE supplier for honda, the honda filter, which just happens to fit our car!! offers the best filtration and life. The honda filter if by far the best filter we have in North America right now.

I've tried to point this out before, with limited result. As consumers, we have little chance of finding out whose filter is under that paint.

I use the Wal*Mart house brand, because I like their O-ring against my stock oil cooler.

The comment about the ticker noise when start up"has to do with anti drain-back valve", this has no sence to it, and if you could explain the reasoning why you think it is becasue of this,

They think the filter will drain its oil when the engine is turned off, resulting in a "dry" startup. These thinkers tend to disregard drainback from all the oil galleries leading to the cams.

What micron size does Fram media start with, and how much better does it get over how much use?

As for K&N don't even get me started, i see those filter on the test stand>

Any online resources for the test stand details?

Does Fram make any comments about effective mileage for contemporary motor oils?

pure junk, the only way they are high performance is becasue the media is so open that everything goes through so you get real good pressure, kinda defeats the purpose of an oil filter?

Well, so does the bypass valve. To what extent is it open during normal driving?

Do be tricked by flow or pressure gains, it means you will not have the same filtration properties, but if you don't care about dirty oil then, the k&n is right for you. Most of the differences you see, will not be visiable by eye as in dirty oil color and so on.

"Dirty" = "Suspended contaminants", right? I thought that was what the oil's third (after hydraulic separation of bearing surfaces, and carrying heat away from them) job was. Once an engine is broken-in, what does a filter have to do? Why wasn't oil filtration a common engine component until the sixties? How'd we survive before then?

Again i am not trying to sell fram, but it does have a suppior test results to its main competitors.

Okay. So, which ones beat Fram?

Also i am trying to get across all the info i have learned by working for a filtration company, when ever i hear people talking about filtration, either air or oil, i relize how much people don't actually know and how they pick a filter on the name!!

Well, pay us now or pay us later.

 

[Zex4g63]

Which line of Fram filters are you talking about 1993-Talon-TSI? Or are they all the same with a different paint job?

 

[LaserDad91]

I use the Wal*Mart house brand, because I like their O-ring against my stock oil cooler. :

Are u serious? And you poke fun at me for using Sears to install and balance my tires??

Been using FRAM on and off since I started driving. I have stuck with them here lately on the laser and the van. When I got the Van, it was obvious the oil had not been changed for a while, so when I changed it, I used the FRAM Tough Gaurd. Used it on the second change, then I will probably go back to the standard. I figured the TG would help catch whatever was left from neglect??

I have used Purolator, STP, NAPA, ETC. and never had any problems. I do get some lifter tick once in while during start up, but not on a regular basis. After a few minutes, they pump up and are fine. I don't think that has anything to do with the filter, more of the lifter design.

 

[1993-Talon-TSI]

Ok, here we go guys!! Now this is a great thread!!! great questions!!!

Backround
I work at a oil and air filter plant in Canada. I am a engineering co-op student, third term here actaully, i have worked in engineering twice and in the materials labratory once. My father has been a mechanical engineer here for 20 years.
i own a 6 bolt 2wd turbo
and
i own a 7 bolt awd trubo

I'm sorry i cannot give you some direct numbers, and sweet test reports with graphs and all the data in the world, as i have signed a privacy policy agreement as you would in any big company when you work for them.
I am going to gather some information on the testing numbers, as much as i can.

As for the questions i will awnser them from my experience, if you don't like the answers then have a nice day and start your own thread!!

K&N type filters start with the air side, lets more air in, pore size in the paper is bigger = more dirt and contamination = ends up in your oil = has to be caught by the filter = if you run both high floe air filter with hi flow oil filter alot of contaminents are flow around in your oil.
This is hard to explain, 99% of high flow air filter uses, either has their engine built or ripped apart before you coul ever see the wear. or they have only had it in the car for a few years.
example: if you bought a new t/e/l back in 90 brand new and put a k&N AIR filter in it the day you got the keys, by this time you would have noticable evidence of it. Honestly how many of you guys have had a high flow filter in for more than 6 years, and have not had your engine apart in that time at all?
If you want a engine to see like 300,000-400,000 miles you would never get away with a high flow filter for all that time.

By-Pass valve and anti drain back.
the by pass valve never opens unless the filter is full of dirt and the restricton is greater than the spring rate of the bypass valve. this is not something that works on a daily basis, 95% of oil filters this never even gets used, especially for us guys who always change or oil on time.
Anit drain back valve holds the oil in the filter so you never have a dry filter startup situation. the instant you have no pressure the rubber flap hold the oil in the filter.
AS for both these things, if they were not important they would not be in the filter, oil filters are nickel and dimed so much its not even funny, trust me if it was not needed it would not be there.

ok next: "Once an engine is broken-in, what does a filter have to do? Why wasn't oil filtration a common engine component until the sixties? How'd we survive before then?"
one question in reply have you ever had a pre 60's engine apart? i have, my dad has a 1952 and 1953 chev pickup trucks, i rebuild the inline 6 216ci "stovebolt" engine. These engines are so basic, one cam with simple rockers and rods, no high tech hydraulic lash adjusters or needle bearing roller rockers!! way tighter tolerences also. After a engine is broken in it still gets dirt and contaminates from you intake, why else would the car companies go to all that work if you only needed it in your breack in period?

So in my opionion the best oil filter for a dsm is the, yes i have to say it, its a honda filter made by fram. its the OE for most current honda models. The best by media and quality, honda are killers when it comes to making something for their cars, you should see what we throw out becasue the blue paint doesn't look quite right, at one time if they had a finger print on the filter, we had to take it back.
Hey so this might be the first thing that a honda has better than our cars.
what do you expect honda guys its a dsm site!!!

Mike

 

[Zex4g63]

What's so great about this filter? Your stating your opinion without the facts. Tear the filter apart tell us what is so great about it. I'm not buying one just because you say it's great. I've cut several Frams open years ago and I wasn't impressed. Show me a side by side comparison of the Fram to others. If they have improved their quality then I will consider it and option. Untill I see the proof I won't be an Allied Signal customer.

 

[MackZ24]

Hey Mike, which of the FRAM research and development plants are you working at here in Ontario, Mississauga or Stratford? As Zex4g63 has just mentioned, you're definitely going to need some concrete numbers or newer comparisons to show us, as most of the people here are not going to believe anything on word of mouth alone. If you take a look at the mopar related link that I included in my previous post, you would have seen that what they had to say about the FRAM after cutting open and examining many different oil filters was this;

This filter cartridge has a small outside diameter with a rather low filter element surface area (193 sqin), and features cardboard end caps that are glued in place. The rubber anti-drainback valve seals the rough metal backplate to the cardboard end cap and easily leaks, causing dirty oil to drain back into the pan. If you have a noisy valve train at startup, this filter is likely the cause. The bypass valves are plastic and are sometimes not molded correctly, which allows them to leak. The backplate has smaller and fewer oil inlet holes, which may restrict flow.

This was written about the standard "Extra Guard" filter [read: cheap], that most people would be comparing to the generic Napa type filter. If you are talking about the Tough Guard filter, the teardown found that they were better than the other FRAM filters, but still used cardboard caps on each end, rather than metal. As for the Double Guard, FRAM is/was using Teflon in the filter, which has been found to not help engines, and can actually cause problems when used in certain ways. (Feel free to check out the many pending/settled lawsuits against companies that were using Teflon in their engine additives, etc.).

As for the Air Filter debate, I personally have used these so-called "poorly filtering" K&N's in two vehicles for a long time with no problems at all. The first was a 1990 Cavalier Z24, 3.1L V6, which ended up having over 320,000km on it (before being driven through a gas station door), the second being my current 1997 Saturn SL1 1.8L daily beater, which is moving up past 280,000km in the next week or so. Neither of these cars have had any engine failure, or any noticable decrease in performance that could be attributed to the air filters in any way. Now, you're stating that over 300,000-400,000 Miles. That's a long time for any car, and most people who get a car up that high in mileage end up rebuilding it anyways, so that's not a real common scenario to deal with.

We definitely need to see some concrete evidence to prove that this FRAM Honda filter is the best for our DSM's like you say. Side by side teardowns of the FRAM and the other well known brands, and perhaps some flow and filtration tests, as well as tests of the bypass valve, etc. But I don't see that being in the average joe's pocket book. But if you can provide us with something like this, by all means!

 

[LaserDad91]

Regarding Air Filters;

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/airfilter/airtest1.htm

Regarding Oil Filters;

http://minimopar.knizefamily.net/oilfilterstudy.html

I read through these, interesting reading. I did not realize the FRAM basic oil filter was considered so bad?? This guy definatly does not like FRAM. An oil filters "normal" life is only 4 to 5K miles anyway. So unless your racing, or have a highly modded engine, you may be paying for stuff that does not matter anyway.

But, you also should consider this is one person's opinion, and only testing he did was cutting them apart. He did no "real time and durablility" testing, to show how the filters actual "filtered" or held up during a regular 3 to 4 K oil change cycle. I will switch to see if I notice a difference on the lifter tick during at start up. Lifter tick does indicate oil pressure drop off somewhere, and it usually is the lifter. They do not bleed down that easily and an engine does not hold "static" oil pressure, as the oil drains into the pan anyway, from many points on the engine. As long as the pump is primed, it recovers the pressure quickly. I just figure I have a lifter bleeding off a little, depending on the lifters position when the engine has stopped. So I don't totally agree with the guys statement on the "drain valve" on the filter causing lifter tick, rubbish. However, I will make a change, just to see what happens.

His testing on the air filters was more "scientific" and pretty much confirmed my theory on the high flow filters. Not much if any gain for the money, for the average person, so all those claims are kind of bogus. Key here to any of that, is if the engine REALLY can flow the extra air. I tend to think there are better ways to make the gains. Unless your flowing "fresh air" to a high flow filter, the modest gain is off set by the the increase in the air temperatures from the engine compartment. Outside of sounding cool, and looking cool, not much there in my opinion.

Thanks for the links, good reading!

 

[MackZ24]

LaserDad91,
I hadn't realized that the basic FRAM was considered to be badly designed either until looking through that link. I've been trying to find some more scientific testing of oil filters online, but no such luck so far, so I thought I would atleast post what I had found so others could see. Unless FRAM has drastically changed their design since this comparison was done, there seems to atleast be higher quality basic filters out there for the money. I definitely agree that the lifter tick most of us experience is largely due to the inherent design flaws of the factory lifters themselves, rather than a lack of oil pressure or drop in pressure from the filter, but every bit helps, right? Either way, definitely let me know if you experience any difference in your tick after trying another filter.

And yes, the air filter comparison was definitely a little more scientific and noteworthy. As for whether it's really worth it or not for the filter alone, I think the gains that people experience probably have a lot more to do with the change in intake piping, rather than the filter. But to be honest, although every drop in intake air temperature helps, having the (even negligible) gain being offset by an increase in underhood air temperatures really isn't too much of a concern for many of us. With large FMIC's, shielding for the filter and even things like water/alc. injection, the air temperatures can be controlled enough to make the underhood temperature not a large concern. But I suppose that's a little off topic, whether or not there's a noticable performance gain due to increased flow from an aftermarket filter alone, I couldn't say.

Definitely keep us updated if there was any difference switching to another brand oil filter!

 

[LaserDad91]

LaserDad91,
With large FMIC's, shielding for the filter and even things like water/alc. injection, the air temperatures can be controlled enough to make the underhood temperature not a large concern. But I suppose that's a little off topic, whether or not there's a noticable performance gain due to increased flow from an aftermarket filter alone, I couldn't say.

I made that comment strickly from the N/A side of the rink, since that is what I drive. I really had not consider the turbo deal, which would be different.

I am due for oil change this week anyway. Not sure what filter I will get, I refuse to put a Motorcraft "Ford" filter on my Laser. Very least, going to get the FRAM Tough Gaurd. Most of what he has listed as acceptable, I do not think I can get around here anyway, expect the Puralator, and the Champion manufacutred models.

 

[MackZ24]

I should have looked the left and realized that you're speaking on the N/A side of things, but it never even crossed my mind! Anyways, you might want to try a filter from your local NAPA if you have one close by. Apparently they use the Wix made filters, which people have had a lot of good experience with from what I've heard. I'd give you some recommendations, but I'm in Canada, and although we have some of the same filters, many are re-branded and I'm not sure who actually makes them!

 

[LaserDad91]

3-22-05
Well so much for a “quality” oil filter reducing lifter tick at start up! I changed my oil Friday and since I could not get a FRAM Tough Guard Oil filter at WalMart (my first stop, ) I stopped by Napa and by default recieved one of the “Gold” filters……..whoo hooo!! Cost is about $6.50. This the filter supposivly made by WIX that according to "the review" (see link above), was a good filter.

So I changed the oil and filter and noticed something I had not before, because once the pan is drained, I always put the plug back in and then take the old filter off. This time I left the plug out and removed the old filter, and noticed that about 2 ozs or so of old oil flowed back out the drain! So from now on, that is the way I will do it, and feel kind of dumb that I had not noticed this before on any car.

I did not drive the Laser again until Sunday, and when I started it up, lifter tick was more than before (only one was ticking before). Once they all pumped up, it was fine. I figured with changing the oil, and only running a short time to check for leaks, aggravated the lifters. So today I drove Laser to work, and once again, lifter tick at start up, and once again they settle down after a bit. I was glad we had a couple of “cool” days here to simulate the conditions that the car has seen prior to oil change. I used 10W-30, Valvoline Max Life since spring is hopefully on the way. I had previously been running 5W-30 Pennziol’s version of Max Life, since when I last changed oil, I could not find the Valvoline Max Life in the 5W – 30. I will keep a watch on it and see what happens.

I am sure the change in weight also has some affect on the lifter tick at start up (especially in sub 30 Degree weather), but the statement that the filter drain back valve leaking causes lifter tick is B/S as far as I am concerned.


Edit
3-23-05

No lifter tick this morning. Same weather conditions as yesterday.

 

[Nayr747]

Are you telling me no magazines have done tests on filters? I'm sure someone has seen a good test in a mag. I would really like to know once and for all which air filter and oil filters are the best. I have looked on the internet but there is seemingly no good tests of any of this stuff asside from a few. But who knows if these are accurate and unbiased.

 

[Defiant]

Are you telling me no magazines have done tests on filters? I'm sure someone has seen a good test in a mag. I would really like to know once and for all which air filter and oil filters are the best. I have looked on the internet but there is seemingly no good tests of any of this stuff asside from a few. But who knows if these are accurate and unbiased.

! You think magazines are "accurate and unbiased"? !

That's a pretty good one.

The link given above is a fairly good, probably honest comparison of what's in those gaily-painted cans. The trouble is in finding out who put the paint on the cans: X filter company puts out an offer for a filter built to their specs, and the manufacturers submit bids. There's no way to tell which boat a given load of those filters came off of, nor even which container they were shipped in. It's the modern manufacturing world.

 

[ACM]

3-22-05
Well so much for a “quality” oil filter reducing lifter tick at start up! I changed my oil Friday and since I could not get a FRAM Tough Guard Oil filter at WalMart (my first stop, ) I stopped by Napa and by default recieved one of the “Gold” filters……..whoo hooo!! Cost is about $6.50. This the filter supposivly made by WIX that according to "the review" (see link above), was a good filter.

<snip>

I am sure the change in weight also has some affect on the lifter tick at start up (especially in sub 30 Degree weather), but the statement that the filter drain back valve leaking causes lifter tick is B/S as far as I am concerned.


Edit
3-23-05

No lifter tick this morning. Same weather conditions as yesterday.

I had this exact same problem with the NAPA filters - if you check the box closely you will find that the DSM filter is not from WIX.

Filters absolutely do affect lifter tick, try swapping between a few filters from AutoZone/whoever, intersperse the selection with OEM and Mobil 1 filters, and the lifter tick can be clearly heard to come and go based on the filter chosen.

Simplest way around all this is to order OEM filters by the dozen from JNZ or similar - problem solved. They're cheap too.

I personally would never touch a Fram filter after the rash of them blowing off CBR600s. If the QC is so bad they can't be bother forming threads properly I for one will never use them on anything more important than a lawn mower. Maybe not even then. Go back a few years in AMA road racing to check this out.

Charles

 

[L2RTSiAWD]

my .02 cents. I only use an OEM filter.

 

[LaserDad91]

I have not really noticed any more lifter tick since I posted the above. I really do not think the filter made any differance. I will watch the oil with my subjective eyes, see if it stays any cleaner when I do the next change.