Resolved Offering $100 REWARD for solving my no start

[nytescion]

I'm now willing to paypal 100 bucks to whomever can figure out this no start problem I've been having. Issue I'm having is the car is very hard to start after it sits for a little bit. The longer I let it sit the harder it is to start. Even after cutting it off and trying to start it right back up takes 1 long (10 sec) crank. so far I've tried

-2 BRAND new coolant temp sensors (verified correct operation)
-BLT 30 40 and 50 psi (only running 30 psi)
-Spraying starter fluid into the the throttle body port for my boost gauge car starts right up first time
-ECU has no leaky caps, burns, fish smells or any funny business
-All battery connects are clean and tight (wrench or pliers)
-Bigger brand new battery (800cc amps)
-Fuel pump rewired to run in the ACC key position (after letting car sit with pump running still no start)
-Immediate fuel pressure when pump is activated
-Correct cam timing verified
*****I forgot to mention that if i enrichen my mainscale value on my maft and it does seem to help to get the car started BUT i have to adjust it back down cause I'll be running quite rich at idle if i don't.

One more thing i can think of is. This motor is out of my second talon tsi awd which was a 92. I did not have these problems with my 92. This DSM i have now is a 90. So only the things that were needed to change to work with a 90 ecu were changed. cam sensor, coil, throttle body thermo housing etc.

 

[badas93tsi]

Bumping the starter a handful of times will have the same effect. Its not like he's not wearing the starter out anyway. I'd just eliminate the metal tube on the inside of the fuel pump housing. Run a -6 hose barb adapter(Summit Racing SUM-220701 - Summit Racing® Twist-Tite Hose Ends - Overview - SummitRacing.com) to a bulk head(Summit Racing SUM-220637B - Summit Racing® Bulkhead Adapter Fittings - Overview - SummitRacing.com) and use a 90 degress AN to hose barb adapter(Summit Racing SUM-220711 - Summit Racing® Twist-Tite Hose Ends - Overview - SummitRacing.com) and be done. Its less than 25 bucks in parts, a couple hours labor and its ready for the 044 intank later on...

 

[nytescion]

Just because pressure is there while the pump is running doesn't mean the pump is holding pressure while it's not running.

Think of it this way: You have an air compressor in your shop; the compressor works perfect while it's running, but overnight a small leak bleeds all of the air in the tank so that whenever you go to use an air tool you must wait for the entire tank to fill again. Same scenerio, but in this case the line must refill and the only way it fills is while the engine is cranking.


O.P.- Have you tried hot-wiring the pump when the engine is cold, letting the pump run for a minute or so, then attempting to start the car?

the pump is rewired to run in the ACC. I can let the pump run for 2 hours and come out and still won't start on first, second third of 5th for that matter.

 

[Squirrel8811]

Just because pressure is there while the pump is running doesn't mean the pump is holding pressure while it's not running.

Think of it this way: You have an air compressor in your shop; the compressor works perfect while it's running, but overnight a small leak bleeds all of the air in the tank so that whenever you go to use an air tool you must wait for the entire tank to fill again. Same scenerio, but in this case the line must refill and the only way it fills is while the engine is cranking.


O.P.- Have you tried hot-wiring the pump when the engine is cold, letting the pump run for a minute or so, then attempting to start the car?

This was assuming he had good pressure all the time.

Just take out your plugs and see what they look like.

 

[Afroclipse]

get another CAS and see what happens, im guessing CAS or timing is off or bad. Switch CAS and gimme my money, you better not askme for $20 dollars so you can send me $100.

 

[thatblondechik]

This was assuming he had good pressure all the time.

Just take out your plugs and see what they look like.

Wait. What?

We've already determined he has no fuel pressure on startup...hence, all the cranking before turn-over.

I have a 92 NT that was having a strikingly similar issue. Cranked for anywhere between 10-30 seconds before it would finally catch. FP, filter, and the in-tank filter were all replaced and it helped the situation exponentially! But there's still a lag on start-up which I believe has been narrowed down to...wait for it...a leak somewhere in the sending unit! Who 'da thunk it!?

 

[snakeyes711]

Question? Have you bumped the compression? When you raise compression ratio it causes hard starting when the engine's hot, a lot of times in my experience... Whats all been done to this car.

Some problems mask themselves as something else, and you find yourself barking up the wrong tree.

G/L

Snake

 

[JusMX141]

But there's still a lag on start-up which I belive has been narrowed down to...wait for it...a leak somewhere in the sending unit! Who 'da thunk it!?

You're still leaking slightly right where the previous owner half-assed the attachment of the line at the sending unit....this is why I made sure the replacement tank came with a sending unit to install. Hopefully the problem will be cured and the car will fire on the first revolution like my '92 FWD did before I tore it down.


I'm still puzzled, though....nytescion claims the car still has an extended cranking issue even with the pump hotwired. I figured with the pump allowed to run for a minute or so to clear all the air out of the system and get pressure to the injectors that it would fire instantly. It's possible it could be a cam angle sensor issue which is effecting injector pulse...hence the car firing and running on Starting Fluid.

One thing's for sure- fixing the pump-to-sender junction is only going to help, not hurt. You're not wasting any time if that seal is questionable.


***Let it be known that nytescion did hold true to his claim and offer me a reward via Paypal. I told him that since I didn't render any services, only advice, that he should instead make a donation to the site via an upgraded membership.***

 

[delta448]

With all due respect to Justin, I doubt the fuel pump is the (only?) problem. You claimed instant correct pressure on the AFPR gauge as soon as the pump comes on. You should also at least have enough residual fuel pressure in front of the check valve to start the car when quickly shutting off and restarting.

It sounds to me as if there is something keeping the ECU from factoring in the startup fuel enrichment. This may be preventing your engine from starting until the injectors have washed down the cylinders with enough fuel to finally light off. Some cold start enrichments can be as much as 2:1 AFR when in sub-freezing ambient temps. This is primarily because gasoline falls out of suspension very quickly when it hits ice cold metal. Does the engine stumble and hunt or go right into a good firm and steady idle rpm once it finally starts? My guess is it stumbles at first but quickly becomes more steady the longer it runs.

I see from your profile you're running a MAFT Gen 2 and one of Jeff O's chips. Is the chip set up for the 880's or a different injector size? Have you tried to use the Afterstart enrichment on the Gen 2 (or would that even help here?)?

One more thing i can think of is. This motor is out of my second talon tsi awd which was a 92. I did not have these problems with my 92. This DSM i have now is a 90. So only the things that were needed to change to work with a 90 ecu were changed. cam sensor, coil, throttle body thermo housing etc.

As long as you never had this issue in the other car, this is where I would start. Start chasing down things that were recently changed in order to work in the new chassis, or things that didn't migrate over from the old setup -like the fuel pump, as Justin has already addressed.

I don't have enough 1G specific knowledge to know what all differences exist between the 90 and 92 ECUs (I've only had 2Gs), but my bet is that your problem is an intermittently poor sensor signal needed by the ECU/MAFT. Possibly CAS, and someone correct me if I'm mistaken but I believe all the MAFT devices clamp IAT and BARO, possibly causing a different fuel table lookup for cold start.

What happens if you pass ACC and pause at RUN for ~30 seconds before twisting the key to START?

Edit: Justin posted as I typed, seems we are in agreement to some degree. I too suspect the CAS may be a problem. Also want to commend the notion of supporting the site instead of paying out a prize to another member, that's a class act move Justin.

 

[thatblondechik]

I figured with the pump allowed to run for a minute or so to clear all the air out of the system and get pressure to the injectors that it would fire instantly.

Just a thought, but maybe since injectors aren't firing while the pump is running in the ACC position, air built up in the system has no where to go. So when that pump is running, it can't get fuel up to the injectors until they start firing.

 

[Rob10_99]

Just a thought, but maybe since injectors aren't firing while the pump is running in the ACC position, air built up in the system has no where to go. So when that pump is running, it can't get fuel up to the injectors until they start firing.

The fuel pump is always running, always circulating fuel, so even a small amount of air if it did manage to get in the line would just get passed by the injectors. And since the injectors are below the rail, they wouldn't see the air unless it was drained completely.

 

[thatblondechik]

The fuel pump is always running, always circulating fuel, so even a small amount of air if it did manage to get in the line would just get passed by the injectors. And since the injectors are below the rail, they wouldn't see the air unless it was drained completely.

Gotcha.

 

[NiKKUH_BOViCE]

-Fuel pump rewired to run in the ACC key position (after letting car sit with pump running still no start)
-Immediate fuel pressure when pump is activated
-Correct cam timing verified
*****I forgot to mention that if i enrichen my mainscale value on my maft and it does seem to help to get the car started BUT i have to adjust it back down cause I'll be running quite rich at idle if i don't.

there u go. it seems like when u let it run on acc the pressure builds up, so when you crank it it simply floods the injectors. enriching mainscale on maft is like u said pissing in the wind. rewire the pump to stock and set mainscale at correct tune value. dont know if u tried this yet but u seem to be pretty desperate. get back.

 

[nytescion]

This was assuming he had good pressure all the time.

Just take out your plugs and see what they look like.

will do.

get another CAS and see what happens, im guessing CAS or timing is off or bad. Switch CAS and gimme my money, you better not askme for $20 dollars so you can send me $100.

Wait. What?

We've already determined he has no fuel pressure on startup...hence, all the cranking before turn-over.

I have a 92 NT that was having a strikingly similar issue. Cranked for anywhere between 10-30 seconds before it would finally catch. FP, filter, and the in-tank filter were all replaced and it helped the situation exponentially! But there's still a lag on start-up which I believe has been narrowed down to...wait for it...a leak somewhere in the sending unit! Who 'da thunk it!?

I do have fuel pressure before cranking the car...........................................

Question? Have you bumped the compression? When you raise compression ratio it causes hard starting when the engine's hot, a lot of times in my experience... Whats all been done to this car.

Some problems mask themselves as something else, and you find yourself barking up the wrong tree.

G/L

Snake

No it's still stock compression

You're still leaking slightly right where the previous owner half-assed the attachment of the line at the sending unit....this is why I made sure the replacement tank came with a sending unit to install. Hopefully the problem will be cured and the car will fire on the first revolution like my '92 FWD did before I tore it down.


I'm still puzzled, though....nytescion claims the car still has an extended cranking issue even with the pump hotwired. I figured with the pump allowed to run for a minute or so to clear all the air out of the system and get pressure to the injectors that it would fire instantly. It's possible it could be a cam angle sensor issue which is effecting injector pulse...hence the car firing and running on Starting Fluid.

One thing's for sure- fixing the pump-to-sender junction is only going to help, not hurt. You're not wasting any time if that seal is questionable.


***Let it be known that nytescion did hold true to his claim and offer me a reward via Paypal. I told him that since I didn't render any services, only advice, that he should instead make a donation to the site via an upgraded membership.***

I have not yet been able to check the fuel pump or reroute the the outlet of the pump to eliminate having to use the oring and cap at all.

With all due respect to Justin, I doubt the fuel pump is the (only?) problem. You claimed instant correct pressure on the AFPR gauge as soon as the pump comes on. You should also at least have enough residual fuel pressure in front of the check valve to start the car when quickly shutting off and restarting.

It sounds to me as if there is something keeping the ECU from factoring in the startup fuel enrichment. This may be preventing your engine from starting until the injectors have washed down the cylinders with enough fuel to finally light off. Some cold start enrichments can be as much as 2:1 AFR when in sub-freezing ambient temps. This is primarily because gasoline falls out of suspension very quickly when it hits ice cold metal. Does the engine stumble and hunt or go right into a good firm and steady idle rpm once it finally starts? My guess is it stumbles at first but quickly becomes more steady the longer it runs.

I see from your profile you're running a MAFT Gen 2 and one of Jeff O's chips. Is the chip set up for the 880's or a different injector size? Have you tried to use the Afterstart enrichment on the Gen 2 (or would that even help here?)?



As long as you never had this issue in the other car, this is where I would start. Start chasing down things that were recently changed in order to work in the new chassis, or things that didn't migrate over from the old setup -like the fuel pump, as Justin has already addressed.

I don't have enough 1G specific knowledge to know what all differences exist between the 90 and 92 ECUs (I've only had 2Gs), but my bet is that your problem is an intermittently poor sensor signal needed by the ECU/MAFT. Possibly CAS, and someone correct me if I'm mistaken but I believe all the MAFT devices clamp IAT and BARO, possibly causing a different fuel table lookup for cold start.

What happens if you pass ACC and pause at RUN for ~30 seconds before twisting the key to START?

Edit: Justin posted as I typed, seems we are in agreement to some degree. I too suspect the CAS may be a problem. Also want to commend the notion of supporting the site instead of paying out a prize to another member, that's a class act move Justin.

The car does seem to stumble once started. Like a split second. letting it sit at run and then turning to start is the same as letting the car sit at ACC for 30 seconds and then twisting the key to start. The fuel pump is going to run regardless and the car isn't going to start

there u go. it seems like when u let it run on acc the pressure builds up, so when you crank it it simply floods the injectors. enriching mainscale on maft is like u said pissing in the wind. rewire the pump to stock and set mainscale at correct tune value. dont know if u tried this yet but u seem to be pretty desperate. get back.

I think you're reading this wrong. I'm NOT getting enough fuel to start the car. RICHENING up the AFR helps start the car. Doing that is almost the same thing as using the starter fluid. After the car is started I have to lean everything back out because once the car is at operating temperature and idle comes back down i will be running rich. (This is not needed when using starter fluid because once it is initially burned to start the car there is no more being added)

****More info the car does try to start up after a few tries but the only way i can describe is it seems like one of the cylinders fires but the others don't (to keep everything turning) so it has to start all over. I think i need to readjust my timing again. If HIGHPSI is right that tutorial NEEDS to be deleted from the forums. ALSO I had an emergency at work so I'm now 200 miles from my car workinh until what looks to be thursday morning. So any info i give until then will totally be from memory. The wife has informed me that a bunch of boxes have showed up on our porch with my name on so i would think that it's the things i've ordered. (or really big bills )

 

[Afroclipse]

Roll your eyes at me? you make HULK angry.

First off turn on the fuel pump and let it run and check pressure to AFPR.

Pull the rail off, put a napkin under it have some one start the car and see if all injectors fire.(obviously disable ignition)

 

[jrohner]

I didn't see compression test listed here anywhere. Did I miss it or have you not done one? An engine will start with starting fluid with pretty much any rediculously low amount of compression. Other than a fuel pressure bleeding issue (which sounds unlikely if you have the fuel pump wired to run when the key is on), compression is the next thing to check. A turbocharged car can quite likely run well and have good power (but laggy) even if the compression is extremely low, yet it will start terrible. Check the compression, and if it's under 100psi or so, it's definitely the issue. I had a car with two cylinders only having like 40 & 60 psi, and it took quite a bit of cranking to start, yet ran quite good.

 

[chaggard27]

So did you ever check what the compression was or did I miss the result? I would almost bet you back the $100 that it is a problem with the compression so if it is then you get to pay me $200 . anyways let me know so that i can add another point to my scoreboard haha.

 

[4g64fiero]

@ timing issue.

 

[nytescion]

ALSO I had an emergency at work so I'm now 200 miles from my car workinh until what looks to be thursday morning. So any info i give until then will totally be from memory. The wife has informed me that a bunch of boxes have showed up on our porch with my name on so i would think that it's the things i've ordered. (or really big bills )

So now I'm on the way back home FINALLY. So I'll be able to poke around the car some more. Hopefully get to install some things and find the problem. I'll keep you all informed.

 

[agedog2gT]

sounds like injectors to me, good luck. make sure to post what it was.!

 

[turbotalon31]

i would also check ## coil bad spark will cause ## issue also. and wire the pump back to stock i had issues when i rewired mine. i put it back to stock and issue is gone. i lose fuel pressure as soon as i shut mine off also but i fires right back up no issues. i would run it till it got hot shut it off and when u restart it check the spark to each plug and see if ## getting good spark just my 2 cents.

 

[icekilla126]

i have the same problem.
Someone told me the secret about how to solve this problem Turn it back to stock.
My response.....unacceptable

 

[nytescion]

This car must have had this problem before my motor. My motor started/ran fine in the other car. So turning it back to stock would be a waste of my time.

 

[BIRDCLAWTSi]

make sure the fuel is not bleeding back down the return line, maybe pinch the line closed with something and try that. just a thought.

 

[TomTom93536]

Why dont you check for resistance in your spark plug wires? Sounds like your getting fuel.

 

[juvi1624]

Hey, I didn't read all 75 reply's so if this has been mentioned I appoligize. I had a car at work a few months ago that did this exact same thing, and it took me a couple weeks to finally find the problem. It turned out the fuel quality was horrible, and what was happening was after it sat for a little while, all the crap and ethonal that was in the gas would settle in the fuel rail. So the first time you crank it, it was injecting all the crap and would crank indefinately, but if you stop after a few seconds and tried it again it would fire right up and run/drive fine. You may want to check your fuel quality(clean and clear), and do an alcohol test(if you don't know how, PM me and I'll walk you through it) to see how much ethanol is in there(it should be less than 10%).