2G No Start. Sensor Voltage and Harness Swap

[joshuah]

I'm having serious trouble getting my 95 Talon to start. As of now crank no start due to no spark.

I run voltage test on all the sensors and get 12v on all except TPS has 5v, CAM has 5v on one wire 12v on another, coil trigger power wire blk/w stripe has 12v the PTU has 12v on 3 wires 8v on 1.

The ECU right now is a black box, car is a 95 Talon. I have a EPROM ECU just cant afford ECMLink yet.

Just within last few months I had it tore down and put new rotating assembly in, forged H beam connecting rods, Nippon scat pistons, OEM crank, king bearing set, ARP 2000 cap bolts, ARP main studs, balance shaft delete, new valves and valve seals, ARP head studs, Cometic MLS head gasket, and HKS timing belt.

Please help I have no more knowledge about what to do.

 

[jesse12345]

Another thing is how did you un loom the harness? The 96 harness doesn't have the same cas connector as the 97. I have a 95 harness with a 97 engine but I have the ohm racing adapter harness for the cam sensor.

This thread is getting extremely confusing. First it was a no crank after the 96 harness install to this? I don't even know at this point where to start.

 

[joshuah]

Ok instead of listing all the sensors I replaced I can truthfully say every single one under the hood and a new fuel pump. I even pulled rail and injectors stuck my air blower in the line and blew it out which it blew out all the leftover fuel in system so I know no restrictions were there. However, fuel pump kicks on once ignition is started and I confirm by pulling starter trigger off.

I did check for spark and only got faint orange spark. And with rail out, injectors in, crank pumps on but no spray. This point I replaced ignition coils, crank sensor and cam sensor, again and absolutely nothing changed. So I looked at engine harness and tested voltage at crank sensor and on the 5v reference wires (red) 12v was constant with ignition on and same on cam sensor and idle air control .

So I began inspecting and said f*** it and removed all the plastic covers and found so many spliced sections almost every plug had a spliced section so I threw it away after clipping all the plugs leaving as much wire on them as I could. Found a decent harness from a 96 automatic transmission turbo 2g Eclipse for $100 had already cut the tranny connector off but I would have chopped it off too. Wired reverse lights and neutral safety switch no problem. Still crank no start. 95 talon, unknown engine year, and 1999 black box ecu

I'm sorry its confusing to anyone but I'm lost about it too please someone help figure this out.

 

[joshuah]

Im so lost on it now im about to give up

Cant get anyone to help me

 

[pauleyman]

maybe this was already asked but what happens when key on? Does the ECU light come on for 5 sec then go out? When you do crank it does fuel pump turn on? Those are two big indicators. You already said tach does not twitch? Is that correct?

 

[joshuah]

I pull starter trigger wire off and no key it was stolen but it ran good when I just put screw driver in the ignition switch but anyway I turn to start and pump brand new it comes on and yes cel comes on fir those 5 secs then goes off

 

[pauleyman]

That's a start. Try this. Crank it for a little bit. Pull the plugs. If the plugs do not smell like fuel you are not getting fuel from injectors. That will at least tell you why it's not starting. No fuel. If that is the case spray a little starting fluid in the holes, reinstall plugs and try again. Should try to start for a second or two. that will verify spark. 2 quick and dirty methods to check fuel and spark. I assume you checked compression?

 

[joshuah]

Compression 180 all 4

 

[19Eclipse90]

Please confirm the summary since your first post on the subject in October.

1995 Eagle Talon TSI, manual transmission.
Black box ECU.
Crank, no-start.

Crank and cam sensors have been replaced.
CEL comes on at key on and turns off after 5 seconds.

Two months go by, you’ve replaced crank sensor, cam sensor and ignition coil, ignition control module, fuel pump, MPI/fuel pump relay, fuel filter, spark plugs and wires, IAC, and TPS.

Then decided that your harness was no good so you swapped in a harness from an automatic 1996. This caused a no-crank condition.

You’ve since gotten back to the crank no-start.

Now, it’s a 1995 manual car with 1996 automatic harness, 1998-1999 ECU, CAS is on the passenger side of the head, and a crank but no start situation. And you’ve tried rewiring the 1996 harness for the 1995 MPI relay.

How about your coolant temperature sensor?
Have you done any other rewiring or wire tucking in the engine bay?
Have you checked for fuel and spark?
Have you tried the other EPROM ECU you have, just to see what happens?

 

[pauleyman]

You also understand the plug firing order is different from 2ga and 2gb?

 

[joshuah]

4123

Please confirm the summary since your first post on the subject in October.

1995 Eagle Talon TSI, manual transmission.
Black box ECU.
Crank, no-start.

Crank and cam sensors have been replaced.
CEL comes on at key on and turns off after 5 seconds.

Two months go by, you’ve replaced crank sensor, cam sensor and ignition coil, ignition control module, fuel pump, MPI/fuel pump relay, fuel filter, spark plugs and wires, IAC, and TPS.

Then decided that your harness was no good so you swapped in a harness from an automatic 1996. This caused a no-crank condition.

You’ve since gotten back to the crank no-start.

Now, it’s a 1995 manual car with 1996 automatic harness, 1998-1999 ECU, CAS is on the passenger side of the head, and a crank but no start situation. And you’ve tried rewiring the 1996 harness for the 1995 MPI relay.

How about your coolant temperature sensor?
Have you done any other rewiring or wire tucking in the engine bay?
Have you checked for fuel and spark?
Have you tried the other EPROM ECU you have, just to see what happens?

Upon buying the car i had already been swapped from a 95 4g63 it has 7bolt with cas on tranny side and a 99 black box ecu and I drove it for 2 years before I decided to pull the head and replace valve stem seals and when I did I decided to pull the motor and stripped it down . I went with balance shaft delete forged H beam connecting rods and 85mm nippon pistons shop turned crank came back good used king bearings arp 2000 cap bolts Lucas assembly lube arp main studs. Arp head studs ,cometic MLS head gasket , hk timing belt, obx timing gears. Water pump and full gasket set felpro, front seal and rear main seal. New fluids. Used same harness it came with. Fired up first try but of course ran rough for about a week until rings seated . I changed oil 3 times In between . Then drove to store and car shut off approaching the lot. I popped hood seen my timing belt about 2" above the gears. Rolled her home drained her all out pulled head and well you know ordered valves and the pistons cleaned up nicely. Lapped all valves installed new lifters and put it all back together. Again fired on first try. Drove it 5 days parked andhh since has had crank no start. I have replaced everything
Under hood sensor wise . And same issue. Noticed harness had Hella splices so $100 for 96;auto harness. I wired reverse lights and neutral safety switch. And still crank no start

 

[pauleyman]

swapplugwires [ECMTuning - wiki]

www.dsmlink.com

This *might not apply here as you don't have all 2gb but you are using a 2gb ecu. Typically we see dsmlink using a 95 ecu in a 2gb car not a 2gb ecu in a 2ga car as you have.

 

[joshuah]

I have a 95 eprom ecu too just cant afford dsm link

Tge car ran for 2 years and 10 months with a 99 black box ecu. When I tore tge block down to rebuild it I bought a 95 eprom ecu but still cant afford dsm link and kinda on the fence about buying it until I get it to fire up

Please confirm the summary since your first post on the subject in October.

1995 Eagle Talon TSI, manual transmission.
Black box ECU.
Crank, no-start.

Crank and cam sensors have been replaced.
CEL comes on at key on and turns off after 5 seconds.

Two months go by, you’ve replaced crank sensor, cam sensor and ignition coil, ignition control module, fuel pump, MPI/fuel pump relay, fuel filter, spark plugs and wires, IAC, and TPS.

Then decided that your harness was no good so you swapped in a harness from an automatic 1996. This caused a no-crank condition.

You’ve since gotten back to the crank no-start.

Now, it’s a 1995 manual car with 1996 automatic harness, 1998-1999 ECU, CAS is on the passenger side of the head, and a crank but no start situation. And you’ve tried rewiring the 1996 harness for the 1995 MPI relay.

How about your coolant temperature sensor?
Have you done any other rewiring or wire tucking in the engine bay?
Have you checked for fuel and spark?
Have you tried the other EPROM ECU you have, just to see what happens?

Yes you got it and no have not tried other EPROM ecu because tge motor is not a 95 4g63 and I had a 97 ecu and it made no difference. I can send you a Pic of the mpi rewire I did

 

[19Eclipse90]

Cam sensor “matches” the ECU so you should not have issues with spark plug order, i.e, shouldn’t need to change anything regarding spark plug wire order.

You don’t need DSMLink in order to use the EPROM ECU, unless you have fuel mods that require more control. I’m assuming you don’t have a flash tune on the black box ECU? But in order to use the EPROM ECU, you would need to worry about the spark plug order.

Sounds like you have compression. Have you verified spark is occurring? Have you verified fuel delivery into the cylinders and fuel pressure?

 

[joshuah]

Cam sensor “matches” the ECU so you should not have issues with spark plug order, i.e, shouldn’t need to change anything regarding spark plug wire order.

You don’t need DSMLink in order to use the EPROM ECU, unless you have fuel mods that require more control. I’m assuming you don’t have a flash tune on the black box ECU? But in order to use the EPROM ECU, you would need to worry about the spark plug order.

Sounds like you have compression. Have you verified spark is occurring? Have you verified fuel delivery into the cylinders and fuel pressure?

cant find my fuel pressure test kit and my spark tester doesn't want to fit on this car but ill ground plug to see if it sparks a blue arc

 

[joshuah]

To use my EPROM ECU I'd need a trigger blade for my cam gear on intake cam and 2gA cam sensor and isn't the ignition coil trigger plug wired a little different between 2ga and 2gb?

I mean I think I know some of the things I have to do as far as converting the harness over to use on manual. MPI relay I color matched all the wires except one was black\white and other was blue both same size small so i hooked them together.

As far as the neutral safety switch I found the 2 wires on the engine harness and connected the 2 together and also the reverse lights I got those 2 wires located wired to the sensor plug and they functioned so if there is anything else that needs a switch I'd say it would be the coil trigger wire may need to swap 2 over but I may be wrong and have not done that yet

 

[19Eclipse90]

to use my eprom ecu id need a trigger blade for my cam gear on intake cam and 2gA cam sensor…

No, you don’t. You only need to be aware of what ECU and CAS you are using and swap the spark plug wires to accommodate.

A 2Gb ECU uses the stock spark plug wire order when matched with a 1G or 2Gb CAS.
A 2Ga uses the stock spark plug wire order when using a 2Ga CAS.

A 2Gb ECU matched with a 2Ga cam sensor swaps the spark plug wire order.
And, it follows, that a 2Ga ECU matched with a 1G or 2Gb cam sensor requires the spark plug wire order also be swapped.

…and isnt the ignition coil trigger plug wired a little different between 2ga and 2gb?

No? There’s no difference between the 2Ga and 2Gb coil pack or power transistor unit connectors or wire order.

MPI relay i color matched all the wires except one was black\white and other was blue both same size small so i hooked them together.

This thread has both ‘95 and ‘96-‘99 wiring diagrams, and is a great resource and guide to figure out what may be missing on the controls side of things. What, exactly, did you do here? Did you cut the harness plug off the original 1995 harness plug and relay and wire it onto the 1996 harness? You could have very easily just used the 1996 harness as-is and purchased a couple relays for it.

 

[joshuah]

No, you don’t. You only need to be aware of what ECU and CAS you are using and swap the spark plug wires to accommodate.

A 2Gb ECU uses the stock spark plug wire order when matched with a 1G or 2Gb CAS.
A 2Ga uses the stock spark plug wire order when using a 2Ga CAS.

A 2Gb ECU matched with a 2Ga cam sensor swaps the spark plug wire order.
And, it follows, that a 2Ga ECU matched with a 1G or 2Gb cam sensor requires the spark plug wire order also be swapped.


No? There’s no difference between the 2Ga and 2Gb coil pack or power transistor unit connectors or wire order.


This thread has both ‘95 and ‘96-‘99 wiring diagrams, and is a great resource and guide to figure out what may be missing on the controls side of things. What, exactly, did you do here? Did you cut the harness plug off the original 1995 harness plug and relay and wire it onto the 1996 harness? You could have very easily just used the 1996 harness as-is and purchased a couple relays for it.

No it has a 96 auto trans mission harness and yes I cut the plug off and wired the other plug to match the 2 relays all were color coded match except the last wire same size different color

I will pull starter trigger wire and see if pump still powers up

 

[19Eclipse90]

no it has a 96 auto trans mission harness

I’ve followed that much. Nothing in my post suggests otherwise.

yes i cut the plug off and wired the other plug to match the 2 relays all were color coded match except the last wire same size different color

This doesn’t sound right. Did you look at the thread I linked? Here’s a screen shot of the wires that exist on both; I’ve generically colored them to show the relationships between them. The only blue wire has a green stripe (L-G) and is common between the two diagrams. There’s a black with blue stripe (B-L) and it is also common between them.

If anything, the extra black with white should have been taped up out of the way or joined with the other black with white.

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[joshuah]

Im gonna take a pic

So the on with blue dots refers to tge black wht wire ans its wired to black with red stripe

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And here is the plugs for mpi/fuel pump

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[19Eclipse90]

And here is the plugs for mpi/fuel pump

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I thought I understood what you had going but you’re showing this to us confuses me. What MPI relay are you using? The single piece ‘95 unit or the two relays found in the ‘96+?

So the on with blue dots refers to tge black wht wire ans its wired to black with red stripe

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This is wrong. I’ll withhold anything further until you specify which relay (s) you are using.

 

[joshuah]

This is what I've had since I replaced original one

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[19Eclipse90]

Now I’m really thrown off. Those two are what should have been on the ‘96 harness to begin with.

Before the harness swap, you had a single 8-pin relay with the ‘95 harness?

You swapped out the 1995 harness for a 1996 harness. If those relays are what you have now, what are you rewiring and why was it necessary to do so?

 

[joshuah]

The plug on the 96 was already cut off

I can give you my phone number it would be easier to talk about it instead of texting

 

[pauleyman]

This may be slower than what you want but it should stay here. Nobody else can chime in otherwise.

 

[joshuah]

I just need someone to guide me because something isn't right