No-start 1.8

[BobPell]

'90 1.8L N/T Completely stock in EXCELLENT condition. Does not start, getting fuel (new gas), spark excellent, caps replaced and ECU checked out ok, temp sensor good. I can go into more detail a bit later.
I have a few other things to do but these questions need to be answered.

Question #1
Behind the battery is a (per HAYNES Manual, 4-3) "fuel pump test terminal". Also per the manual (5-6) is an "ignition test connector". Both are plug type connectors and about 2 inches apart. The larger one has a yellow (w/red tracer) wire, the other, much smaller, has a black (w/wht. tracer) wire. The smaller of the 2 has both halves of the connector there but no wire coming out of the male part. the larger is just the female part.
Which is which???

Q#2 - Under the section for "Ignition timing check and adj." 5-5 sub sect 9, it goes thru the procedure to test timing. Sentence 1-4 discuss idle speed, #5 says "turn the engine off and connect a jumper lead between the terminal for ingition and a good ground. See illustration (which by the way is very clear and shows the larger of the 2 connectors).
This will by-pass the computer" Sentences 6-9 tell you how to connect the timing light.
Sentence 9 says "Start the engine, aim the timing light......and so on"
The actual question is then HOW THE HELL WILL THE ENGINE RUN IF THE COMPUTER IS BYPASSED?

Q #3 - In checking to see if my fuel pump was working, suppose I had connected a hot wire to the wrong connector? I may have as the the smaller of the 2 was hidden behind other wires and mostly under tape.

Q #4 - Let's assume that I did mix them up. I did it early on BEFORE I found the bad caps. They were replaced and board was checked out as OK after my possible boo boo.
What other possible damage could have been done????

Q #5 - CEL light goes off after about 5 seconds of cranking. Is this normal??

Please guys I'm running out of time on this - I bought car this for my son and I need to get it running.

edit - the black w/wht. wire produces 2200 ohms to ground the yellow w/red produces 5400 ohms to ground.

 

[Old Mitsu Tech]

Well, let's see. You said it's getting gas. Did you mean the fuel pump is working or did you mean fuel is getting into the cylinder? Those are two totally different areas. I am going to speculate that you mean the fuel pump is working. That leaves the injectors and their related areas of concern.

First. Key on engine off. Take a test light and probe the positive wire on your injector and see if the light comes on on your test light. If it does not, then you have lost the 12 volts to your injectors. If it does, then it's probably an injector drive problem. You always have 12 volts on the injectors and the pcm just modulates the ground as it sees fit from what it can extrapolate from the sensors as being the necessary percentage it needs to hold open the injectors. Which means if you put your test light on the positive side of your battery and probe the "other" injector wire you should see flickering when you are cranking the engine over. If not, then it's a drive circuit problem.

Listen to your injectors with a screwdriver held to one of them and the other to your ear. Crank the engine over. Do you hear a clicking noise?

Post and let us know.

Good luck

 

[BobPell]

Post and let us know.

Good luck

I'm way ahead on this - each injector is working - the fuel rail is on my lap as I type this.
Ther seems to be some gunk in where injector enters rail.

1. Now - the car sat for 3 years. One thing I want to check is gunk in each injector (ohms for the injector 14.7, 14.7, 14.6, 15.1) The reason is, I feel each (or some) are injecting a stream as opposed to a spray. Is there some way to determine this with them off? I can't seem to blow thru them. How would you do a thorough cleaning of them?

2. During dis-assembly I tried to blow thru the fuel press. regulator. I can't - theory was that too much pressure is sending too much gas to injectors. I suspected this as when I remove the plugs after cranking they are soaked.

3. It does not even try to start even with starting fluid.

Additional - spark is hot and blue, firing order correct, dist. and rotor - clean and dry.

Timing belt changed at 95000 now has 113000.

Thank you for answering so quickly

edit - ignore my stupid comment about not being able to blow thru the injector

 

[BobPell]

Well, let's see. You said it's getting gas. Did you mean the fuel pump is working or did you mean fuel is getting into the cylinder? Those are two totally different areas. I am going to speculate that you mean the fuel pump is working. That leaves the injectors and their related areas of concern.

First. Key on engine off. Take a test light and probe the positive wire on your injector and see if the light comes on on your test light. If it does not, then you have lost the 12 volts to your injectors. If it does, then it's probably an injector drive problem. You always have 12 volts on the injectors and the pcm just modulates the ground as it sees fit from what it can extrapolate from the sensors as being the necessary percentage it needs to hold open the injectors. Which means if you put your test light on the positive side of your battery and probe the "other" injector wire you should see flickering when you are cranking the engine over. If not, then it's a drive circuit problem.

Listen to your injectors with a screwdriver held to one of them and the other to your ear. Crank the engine over. Do you hear a clicking noise?

Post and let us know.

Good luck

I don't have a test light - can I do any of this with my digital multimeter???????

 

[Old Mitsu Tech]

AHA!!!!! Doesn't try to start with starting fluid? That changes everything. If it won't ignite starting fluid then it's a mechanical/spark issue.

Ok, let's start over. Starting fluid is much more volatile than gas obviously. Let's get it where it will at least try to do something on the starting fluid.

Check your spark plugs to make sure they aren't completely fouled out.

Do a compression test just to humor me if for no other reason. Post your results.

Now, check your timing belt marks. Make absolutely sure they are where they should be.

Make sure your CAS is not 180 out. It should backfire, but at this point I'm just offering suggestions.

One of these is the culprit. Has to be. We may have other problems, but I need to know the results of these suggestions to be able to go any further.


You can use a multimeter, but the test light is a visual thing. If the light flickers you have acuation of the circuit which is easier to see than a needle flicking around or a digital number going crazy.

They are only around 10.00 at your local parts store. Or, you can go to Snap On or Mac and get the new handy dandy "POWER PROBE" it not only has the capability of telling you it's sensing voltage and ground, it can actually inject a ground or voltage signal to a component which can thus actuate the component. They are around 100.00 or so. If you do a lot of electrical, you won't want to be without one.

Guaranteed !!!!



Good Luck

 

[BobPell]

AHA!!!!! Doesn't try to start with starting fluid? That changes everything. If it won't ignite starting fluid then it's a mechanical/spark issue.

Ok, let's start over. Starting fluid is much more volatile than gas obviously. Let's get it where it will at least try to do something on the starting fluid.

Check your spark plugs to make sure they aren't completely fouled out.

Do a compression test just to humor me if for no other reason. Post your results.

Now, check your timing belt marks. Make absolutely sure they are where they should be.

Make sure your CAS is not 180 out. It should backfire, but at this point I'm just offering suggestions.

One of these is the culprit. Has to be. We may have other problems, but I need to know the results of these suggestions to be able to go any further.

Good Luck

I understand to start fluid issue - only tried it out of frustration

Plugs are excellent lookin - all produce bright spark - every wire fires - there is no arching.

Did a comp test, dry, 155 or real close across the board - shot right up on first rev.

No CAS as this is N/T

I did not check t belt yet because when the guy brought it home is was running. Reason for sitting is that the water pump pulley fell off and all other belts tangled. He cut them off and drove home. Not fixing it immed. his son bought a different car which he was planning to do anyway. When he finally got around to fixing it (he took care of other stuff at the same time) it would not start for him. That was about 3 years ago.
I know the guy real well so anything he tells me he did or bought is gospel.

 

[Old Mitsu Tech]

Double AHA!!

Must be a 1.8. That changes everything again.

If your compression is where it should be it's quite possible the timing belt is ok at this point. You can address that when you get it running.

Let me know if it's a 1.8

We can go from there.

OK?

 

[BobPell]

Double AHA!!

Must be a 1.8. That changes everything again.

If your compression is where it should be it's quite possible the timing belt is ok at this point. You can address that when you get it running.

Let me know if it's a 1.8

We can go from there.

OK?

Yes 1.8

 

[ASHICK]

bet you got critters unbolt front exhaust pipe and see what happens . They got me 2 months ago. plugged exhaust could be the issue I changed everything on the car and then I got desperate and unbolted the exh. and it fired right up 800 dollars later

 

[BobPell]

bet you got critters unbolt front exhaust pipe and see what happens . They got me 2 months ago. plugged exhaust could be the issue I changed everything on the car and then I got desperate and unbolted the exh. and it fired right up 800 dollars later

How could it get so clogged???

EDIT - You mean critters climbed in and clogged it???? Holy shit!!! Someone already check in the rear while was cranking.

 

[Old Mitsu Tech]

He does have a very good point. I've only seen one do it, but if your exhaust is stopped up enough, it sure as the world won't start. You can drop your pipe at the manifold and try to start it.

Let us know

 

[BobPell]

He does have a very good point. I've only seen one do it, but if your exhaust is stopped up enough, it sure as the world won't start. You can drop your pipe at the manifold and try to start it.

Let us know

Going to put the rail and injector all back together - will be back ASAP!!!!!

 

[BobPell]

He does have a very good point. I've only seen one do it, but if your exhaust is stopped up enough, it sure as the world won't start. You can drop your pipe at the manifold and try to start it.

Let us know

Dropped a fuel rail spacer and cannot find it anywhere - now it is dark. I will find it in the AM

Thanks for your help

Air flow thru exhaust for sure!!!

 

[Erok]

first off its your cat that clogs usually and you can tap it and hear the screens usually if its bad, anyways, before you go breaking exhaust manifold bolts and retaping your head to find out it wasnt even that, try taking your o2 sensor out, its enough space for the exhaust to excape and you will save a headache for sure, trust me it works ive used the method and stumped dealership mechanics with this little trick, all the car needs is fuel/timing/spark and exhaust, remember that,
good luck bud



sleepygsx

 

[BobPell]

Exhaust is clear!!!



edit - I tried retarding and advancing dist. No difference.

 

[BobPell]

It isn't even trying to start. No signs of life at all even with starting fluid.

 

[1stGenRocks]

if you think its getting too high of fuel pressure and too much gas starting fluid wont help. try pulling the fuse for the fuel pump and then crank it for awhile. this will get rid of the excess fuel pressure and if a bad regulator is the problem it will probably at least try to start at some point once the fuel pressure goes down.

its probably flooded by now

 

[dr1665]

Damn. Greg sent me a PM asking if I could help out with this one, but I am an expert on the 2GNTs. I don't know much about the 1Gs. If you think you might have an issue with the fuel pump, you should be able to run a 12VDC lead to it direct from the battery to hear it prime. If it's not priming that way, and you're sure it's got a clean ground connection, it could be that the pump is dead.

Now, supposing the pump does prime, then you might consider replacing the fuel filter. It's the cheapest piece in the entire fuel system. Should it become clogged (due to some bad gas after sitting so long), you would not get fuel. Aside from that, I'd see about installing a fuel pressure gauge at the rail to see if you're getting sufficient pressure there (2GNTs pull down 47-52psi at idle).

Even so, it sounds like you've got something other than a fuel delivery problem if starting fluid isn't helping. I know you said you're pretty sure you've got nothing in the pipe, but given your immediate timeframe of Wednesday, I'd say we're getting desperate enough to grasp at straws. Unbolting the exhaust at the downpipe from the manifold seems like it would be a quick enough test to me.

Other than that, I'd venture to say the timing could be off. If you're certain the fuel is good, the exhaust isn't obstructed in any way, and you've got spark, then get in there and make sure your timing is set properly. It only takes a slight slip (from some other belt coming loose and tangling everything up) to lose compression. I dunno about 155, as I am unfamiliar with 4G63 compression numbers aside from 1G turbos (2.0) running 7.8:1 CR pistons. Lower service limit on 9.6:1 CR 2GNT pistons is 100psi with an average, "good" reading of 180-210psi. So it sounds to me like you've got a real poseur on your hands.

You've definitely got a gremlin on your hands with this one. I wish you luck. I'll link this thread to some of my more knowledgeable buddies on 2GNT to see if any of them might be able to help out.

 

[I_eat_DSM's]

Do the plugs smell like gas when you try to crank it and then pull them? Are you sure that are the spark plugs are on in the right order and that the ignition timing is right? If you have good compression and it won't start with starting fluid then you have a spark problem most likely.

 

[BobPell]

Thank you guys for your answers - I'm going now to check the things you suggested.

This car may be possessed, anyone here do exorcisms?

 

[hellotbone]

I shouldn't take much to make it run really. What are we looking at here thats missing? You have fuel,You have Fire, Do you have air? You have compression. Something is missing to finish the basic formula of the 4 stroke engine SUCK,SQUEEZE,BANG,BLOW.

If you have fuel in the rail and in the cylinders you are getting fuel

If you have spark you are getting fire to light the fuel

How about air into the engine? Have you had the intake or throttle body off the thing? Maybe your not getting enough air to fire? Im not much of an NT expert so I can't help much however Tim G a mod from the NT forums maybe able to help out he is very well educated on the NT engine!

 

[BobPell]

I shouldn't take much to make it run really. What are we looking at here thats missing? You have fuel,You have Fire, Do you have air? You have compression. Something is missing to finish the basic formula of the 4 stroke engine SUCK,SQUEEZE,BANG,BLOW.

If you have fuel in the rail and in the cylinders you are getting fuel

If you have spark you are getting fire to light the fuel

How about air into the engine? Have you had the intake or throttle body off the thing? Maybe your not getting enough air to fire? Im not much of an NT expert so I can't help much however Tim G a mod from the NT forums maybe able to help out he is very well educated on the NT engine!

All good points - did not have the parts off. When you cover the throttle body with your hand it sucks real good. Going to store right now to get new plugs even though these look excellent. What the hell. TYVM

 

[TimG]

Im not much of an NT expert so I can't help much however Tim G a mod from the NT forums maybe able to help out he is very well educated on the NT engine!

He's trying to get a 1.8L n/t going, which isn't the same as a 2.0L. It doesn't run off a coil pack, but a distributor.

But now that we are on the subject, he has compression, fuel going to the rail and spark which is blue which means hot. The compression numbers on a 1.8L are 185 psi and your service limit is 131 psi. If you are dry and at 155+/-psi a few across the board, then it should still start. This leaves out gas flowing through the injectors. Try cranking the car over for 10 seconds bursts 3 or 4 times, waiting 1 minute in between cranks. Then take the spark plugs out and check for fuel on them. If there is fuel on them, then I am at a loss.

Here's a little tidbit. I recently bought a 2 year old 4G63 n/t that wouldn't start. I was getting fuel into the cylinders, spark was great on new plugs and my compression was 195 across the board. I really have no idea why it didn't start but after trying to start the thing for about 10 minutes, she started to catch and then fired up 30 seconds later. I drove it around for a while (1 hour) with no problems and ever since it started on the first crank. I still don't know what it's problem was but I'm pointing toward the FAIV.

Alright I know my ideas are a little scrambled in this post but coming from the 4G63, I was wondering, are you trying to start this thing in a garage or in the cold weather we are having outside?

 

[BobPell]

Update and thank you all for trying

Car is outside not too cold mid 40 day high 20s nite

1. Put all together - tried to start - no indication no sputtering nothing
2. Pull wires from all injectors - try again, this time it wantes to start
3. Put wires back on , try again, no sputtering, nothing
4. Pull wires again, shoot gas directly into throttle body, try, this time sputters and
wants to start
5. Scratch my head a lot and say WTF many times


Tomorrow I'm pulling timing cover to gear position.

Thanks again guys - this is for my 17 yr old son for Christmas

 

[BobPell]

SUCK,SQUEEZE,BANG,BLOW.

Worked on cars a long time - never heard that before - I LOVE IT

Thanks for your help - we'll get it!