No Disengagement, tried everything

[TalonJohn94]

I have searched a lot but here is my problem...

Just installed a Shepracing transmission, ACT 2600, ACT Flywheel (~.609 -.611), New throw-out bearing, New Clutch Fork & Pivot Ball, New Transmission-to-Engine bolts.

I have recently replaced the Clutch Master cylinder, and rebuilt the clutch pedal assembly.
The clutch adjustment is backed almost all the way out.

Now I can't get into any gear with the clutch depressed all the way.

My slave cylinder worked before, and the rubber part of the line doesn't appear to be fatigued.

Any ideas?

 

[greeneclipse]

isn't the rod on the master cyl. supposed to be IN more and not all the way OUT?

check the motor/tranny mount to make sure the engine and trans. aren't getting pushed apart when you press the the clutch.

 

[TalonJohn94]

I don't think it is supposed to be IN.

The bellhousing bolts are new and all the dowl (guide) pins are in and lined up.

I am going to look at it a little more tonight

 

[TalonJohn94]

isn't the rod on the master cyl. supposed to be IN more and not all the way OUT?

check the motor/tranny mount to make sure the engine and trans. aren't getting pushed apart when you press the the clutch.

ok... by OUT I mean toward the master cylinder. Which mount?

 

[greeneclipse]

yea thats what i mean too....thread it in towards the cyl.

im not too sure about the mounts on the 1g's, but check the motor mount near the timing belt and the one on the opposite side that attaches to the trans. If these are worn out the engine/trans can shift from side to side.

 

[overdoseheroin]

pull the tranny back out and put two 1/8'' washers behind the pivot ball...i went through the same shit and now a days when i do a clutch install...wether its a new pivot ball and clutch fork or not, i still shim it.

 

[TalonJohn94]

pull the tranny back out and put two 1/8'' washers behind the pivot ball...i went through the same shit and now a days when i do a clutch install...wether its a new pivot ball and clutch fork or not, i still shim it.

I had considered that, but with everything new...

Also, I can understand that making the disengagement a little better, but not making the difference between not being able to go into any gear and being able to.

 

[overdoseheroin]

I had considered that, but with everything new...

Also, I can understand that making the disengagement a little better, but not making the difference between not being able to go into any gear and being able to.

youd be suprised...if you put that fork a quarter inch closer to the pressure plate..thats that much less work the slave cylinder needs to disengage it. look at where the clutch fork is coming out of the tranny. it should be angled slightly towards the drivers side of the car if looking at it head on. if its closer to the center than thats probably your problem. i just put a kids car together and he had a 2600 with new pivot ball and fork and i shimmed the pivot ball anyways and it works great, i didnt even need to put an extended rod in it.

 

[TalonJohn94]

man, I was going to do that, too. So you are basically saying that if you had a NEW 1g, and you put a 2600 on it, it would require the shim then?

 

[overdoseheroin]

man, I was going to do that, too. So you are basically saying that if you had a NEW 1g, and you put a 2600 on it, it would require the shim then?

i would.

 

[TalonJohn94]

its just really hard: by myself, in my driveway, w/basic hand tools, a LARIN jack - and in college

 

[overdoseheroin]

its just really hard: by myself, in my driveway, w/basic hand tools, a LARIN jack - and in college

i felt the same way when i had to do it the first few times. thats why i just shim them anyways just to eliminate the possibility. i had to do it so many damn times before though, pulling a tranny was about as easy and changing the oil. it blows ass but it will fix the problem i bet..take a look at that clutch fork for me though and tell me where its at..if you could snap a pic it would be even better.

 

[TalonJohn94]

related question: Does the Slave Cylinder either work or not .... or can it be weak?

How far should the rod travel, like 1"?

 

[overdoseheroin]

related question: Does the Slave Cylinder either work or not .... or can it be weak?

How far should the rod travel, like 1"?

it can be weak...usually if theyre old they will leak. if i were you, id pick one of those up too...a local auto parts store by my house sold me a brand new one for like 25 bucks. its well worth it. as for the travel of the slave rod..i dont know. i dont thinks its supposed to move a certain distance i think its just supposed to move... as long as it works it doesnt really matter what the travel on it is...i suppose.

 

[TalonJohn94]

OK, I got a couple more bases to cover. I have a SS clutch line that came with the clutch kit - I'll throw that on with a new slave cylinder. Also, I'll bleed it forever like I did last time. I don't mean to sound stubborn - but I'd like to hear a documented case of "couldn't get into any gear until I shimmed the clutch for 1/8th inch."

anyone?

 

[TalonJohn94]

i felt the same way when i had to do it the first few times. thats why i just shim them anyways just to eliminate the possibility. i had to do it so many damn times before though, pulling a tranny was about as easy and changing the oil. it blows ass but it will fix the problem i bet..take a look at that clutch fork for me though and tell me where its at..if you could snap a pic it would be even better.

...and I'll try to take a picture today or tomorrow.

 

[TalonJohn94]

Didn't get a pic yet, but..

Update: I switched to a extended slave cylinder rod, still didn't work

Then I turned the master cylinder adjustment rod in EVEN more, until flush. Now I can get into gear, and drive - but we are talking engagement RIGHT off the floor.

I also noticed that the master cylinder rod seems to be at a little bit of an angle from the cylinder itself.

I am going to do the slave cylinder and clutch line replacement - but I am really starting to suspect the pedal assembly still because:

***After you push in clutch and let it return, you can (with your hand) still pull it back at least 1/2"

***When I reassembled the assembly, I didn't weld - rather I used a nylon "lock nut" and I don't think it fastened the pedal down completely.

***Adjusting the clutch master cylinder rod a little more (by the way I can turn it by hand after I loosen the nut) helped a little.

SO, I'm tempted to do what others have and modify the master cylinder rod to have more threads - but I really don't want to permenantly have any band-aids (longer slave cylinder rod, pivot ball shims, longer master cylinder rod).

I'll still be doing the pics soon.

 

[boosting_laser]

In case you haven't checked this out yet: http://www.roadraceengineering.com/clutchandflywheeltech.htm

By the way I aslo replaced the throwout bearing, master/slave cylinder, clutcline w/ an SS line, clutch fork, fulcrum ball, bled the system, and checked the fork for alignment (didn't have to shim it). All this w/ a brand new clutch and flywheel.

After cancelling all others I found out it was the pedal assembly that was the culprit.

 

[TalonJohn94]

Thanks, i've researched the RRE page.

Thats good to know (kinda) that the pedal assembly was the problem for you, because I really feel that is where I did something wrong. I mean when I did it I saw a huge "crater" the C-bracket and the dowel pin was worn - so I thought replacing those (and a few of the plastic bushings) was all I needed to do. I didn't think I should weld.

Let me ask you: when you weld the nut (which I didn't do) - when they say "PRELOAD" the assembly, do they mean hold the pedal all the way up (like level with the brake pedal) ??

 

[TalonJohn94]

OK, I just pulled the pedal assembly out and threw a weld on. (2-3 hrs) May have damaged the brake master cylinder boot a little, and ripped one of the plastic heating ducts off of one of its screws.

When I was unbolted the clutch master cylinder, I noticed that one bolt was not very tight and one was very loose (holding the master cylinder to the firewall) -- could this have contributed to my problem?

 

[overdoseheroin]

OK, I just pulled the pedal assembly out and threw a weld on. (2-3 hrs) May have damaged the brake master cylinder boot a little, and ripped one of the plastic heating ducts off of one of its screws.

When I was unbolted the clutch master cylinder, I noticed that one bolt was not very tight and one was very loose (holding the master cylinder to the firewall) -- could this have contributed to my problem?

it may have if they were both very loose but if one was snugged up then i doubt that was your problem.

 

[TalonJohn94]

So I welded the pedal assembly, made sure the master cylinder was tight > this got rid of the ability to pull up on the clutch pedal after depressing it -- which is good.

But, after another cold day outside under my dash, I got it all reinstalled and.... it is maybe slightly better.

So my only other thing to cover is the slave cylinder and the clutch hose. I'm going to try to get those done tomorrow - and bleed the hell out of the system.

The "Advance Auto" $14 slave cylinder is tempting - but I think I'll take my list price at the Mitsu dealer near me.

We'll see..

 

[TalonJohn94]

bought the slave cylinder from Mitsu today ($55) and I am going to install it and the braided line, + bleed it tomorrow.

quick speculation: when I pulled out the pedal assembly, the master cylinder boot may have came off a couple of times and the rod may have been forced to be at an angle sometimes -- could this have damaged my NEW master cylinder, in which it is causing my problem?

Also, if you look straight up at the master cylinder adjustment rod, it is always at a slight angle in relationship to the C-bracket -- is this normal?

 

[overdoseheroin]

im gonna laugh when you STILL need to shim your shit.

 

[diambo4life]

Listen to what has been suggested by the above poster! Shim the fulcrum pivot ball!!!! Think about it this way: You have a see saw that will go up 2 feet on either side. What's the best way to make that see saw swing up higher than 2 feet? Do you get a longer board or do you make the fulcrum/pivot higher? Same analogy to your clutch fork. Your SC or MC push rod will not need to move as much to displace the fork. It doesn't matter if you put a 20 foot rod there, the angular distance been displaced by the fork at the TOB will not change dramatically untill you shim it!

Mike.