New cams and IC, Hp gain? 1/4 mile gain? (Bench Racing)

[forcefed86]

Setup

1993 Eagle Talon TSI AWD
131K, 5 speed, 6/4 Bolt, Full power, Sun roof
20K on rebuilt motor. New rings and bearings, polished crank, valve job, head surfaced , new valve stem seals, New water pump, timing belt, tensioner and all belts and hoses.

walbro 255 hp pump, factory injectors and FPR.

Rebuilt Transmission and ACT 2600 clutch kit (shifts smooth)

FP Performance Mitsu Big 16G EVO 3 turbo and EVO 3 o2 housing. Both are ported and coated in a high temp black coating. Ported 2G exhaust manifold. Buschur racing 2 ½" full exhaust.

Eibach lowering springs, KYB AGX rear struts, KYB GR2 front struts. Kuhmo 225/50/16 tires.

Car has run a best of 12.70 at 106 with stock IC and cams @ 20 psi and 110 octane fuel.

Since we've added 3G lifters and BC 272 cams, and a large spearco FMIC. Core measures 24" long, 8" high, and 3.5" wide. Also added a devils own alcohol injection kit with a 7gph nozzle @ 250psi using 100% meth.

Hoping to be able to run 20psi on pump gas with the new IC and alky injection. What kind of HP gains can I expect from above modifications? Quarter mile estimates?

 

[deerhunter0881]

just so you know you are not aloud too bench race on this site, they will stop this thread when you start asking about hp gains.

 

[YOOOO]

Why the hell you spend the money on cams without upgrading your injectors? What are you using for tuning I certainly hope you have wideband

 

[hubz91talontsi]

Has to have a way to tune.. Car would run out of fuel on a big 16g at 20psi on stock fuel trims

 

[forcefed86]

U are a friendly lot aren't ya!

Seems to me like the newbie section is just a place for you self-richeous folk to bash any and every post made.

just so you know you are not aloud too bench race on this site, they will stop this thread when you start asking about hp gains.

Why wouldn't someone be able to ask approx HP gains from added performance parts? I'm not looking for exact numbers here. But I'm sure there are guys out there that have done similar upgrades that could give me some useful information.

Bench racing is to discuss "which is faster?" or "Which would win in a race?" between two cars. I'm asking about my car specifically. What is wrong with that?

Why the hell you spend the money on cams without upgrading your injectors? What are you using for tuning I certainly hope you have wideband

Well first off I didn't spend anything on the cams or the IC. They came with the car. And yes I have a WB02. And a scan master. Running 14 lbs now. Since I run 100% meth I am adding fuel to the mixture at boost. Same thing as adding large injectors. I find on all my cars I can run more timing and boost by replacing up to 25% of the WOT fuel with methanol.

 

[YOOOO]

Methonal is just a way of covering up fuel inefficiencies. You are run running a much higher risk of knock by adding timing with those tiny injectors. I'd love to see what your injector cycle duties are at...anything more than 90% your really pushing the limits and I'm sure you are at 20psi. With as much as methonal costs your better off in the long run just getting bigger injectors. Bigger injectors and a little bit of methonal and less timing will net you more power more safely.

 

[forcefed86]

Methonal is just a way of covering up fuel inefficiencies. You are run running a much higher risk of knock by adding timing with those tiny injectors. I'd love to see what your injector cycle duties are at...anything more than 90% your really pushing the limits and I'm sure you are at 20psi. With as much as methonal costs your better off in the long run just getting bigger injectors. Bigger injectors and a little bit of methonal and less timing will net you more power more safely.

While I do understand what your saying about maxing out DC on the injectors, I'd have to disagree with the rest of your statements. Methanol is 2.00 a gallon here. I go through about a 1.5 gal or so every 2-4 weeks depending on how often I get into boost. Basically I fill my meth when I fill my fuel tank. So meth is VERY cost effective IMO. And while I understand your "band wagon" style of tuning I don't agree with it at all.

Way to many people are afraid of timing. I pushed my buick well into the 10's replacing over 30% of the WOT fuel tables with methanol. I run 25* of timing at wot at 27+psi on a 68mm turbo. All on 91 octane and 100% meth injection.

This is getting a bit ridiculous. I didn't plan on arguing about tuning. U tune your car, I'll tune mine. I simply wanted to know if anyone was running s similar setup and roughly what kind of gains could be expected from the above IC and cams.

 

[darkhorizon]

Meth just straight sucks compared to a decent intercooler and decent fuel delivery.

It CAN make a bit more power than just pump gas given a good setup, but the amount is quite insignificant.

I typically find that meth just cools down your combustion to the point you just flat out make less horsepower, even if your afr's are dead on. If you can push significant amounts of more boost, then you can compensate for that power loss.

It seems to me that you shouldnt have any issues running 20-22psi with pump gas and the right injector/fuel pump.

 

[forcefed86]

Meth just straight sucks compared to a decent intercooler and decent fuel delivery.

It CAN make a bit more power than just pump gas given a good setup, but the amount is quite insignificant.

I typically find that meth just cools down your combustion to the point you just flat out make less horsepower, even if your afr's are dead on. If you can push significant amounts of more boost, then you can compensate for that power loss.

It seems to me that you shouldnt have any issues running 20-22psi with pump gas and the right injector/fuel pump.

Your mistaken. Methanol is a far superior fuel for a turbo car. I can run more timing and more boost than with standard petrol and it's a 1/10th of the price of race gas. And if your making less power with meth then you don't have your car tuned properly for it. You need to have a way to adjust timing and fuel curves to run it properly. Once thats done I'd love to see someone make more power on pump gas than with meth inj. & pump gas. It just won't happen. This is getting way off topic. I wasn't here to argue tuning. Everyone does it differently and we all have our own opinions.

Back to my original topic.

Admittedly I'm new to the 1g world. But I've been playing with turbo cars for a long time. I managed to find the dimensional specs on these BC 272's. I can't find the RPM ranges they are targeted for...? Like I said these last 2 items were installed right before I bought the car. So I didn't install them or research the parts. IMO the IC looks a bit large volume wise for that tiny turbo, and same with the cams.

 

[Hubbell91Tsi]

Your mistaken. Methanol is a far superior fuel for a turbo car. I can run more timing and more boost than with standard petrol and it's a 1/10th of the price of race gas. And if your making less power with meth then you don't have your car tuned properly for it. You need to have a way to adjust timing and fuel curves to run it properly. Once thats done I'd love to see someone make more power on pump gas than with meth inj. & pump gas. It just won't happen. This is getting way off topic. I wasn't here to argue tuning. Everyone does it differently and we all have our own opinions.

Back to my original topic.

Admittedly I'm new to the 1g world. But I've been playing with turbo cars for a long time. I managed to find the dimensional specs on these BC 272's. I can't find the RPM ranges they are targeted for...? Like I said these last 2 items were installed right before I bought the car. So I didn't install them or research the parts. IMO the IC looks a bit large volume wise for that tiny turbo, and same with the cams.

You are correct about meth being a much better fuel then pump gas. However the stoich for meth is around 6.2:1. So that means you would have to more then double the amount of fuel you are throwing in there, which is impossible on anything close to stock injector. Hope this helps in someway.

 

[forcefed86]

Right, but we aren't talking about running meth as the primary fuel. Just using it to richen up the mixture and lower the knock threshold. Tuning with meth injection I usually shoot for 11.5:1 or so on the WB.

 

[TastyTalon]

BC cams...just watch for breakup and lots of knock on the high end.

 

[forcefed86]

What is considered "high end" 7000+?

 

[habitatguy187]

BC cams...just watch for breakup and lots of knock on the high end.

Why's that? I don't see how cams could cause knock except for there being a higher cylinder pressure with cams, even so the OP has meth injection so knock probably isn't something worth worrying about.

OP: As stated you really need to get some fuel mods, if you could even get an adjustable fpr and turn the pressure up a little bit it'd help keep you on the safe side, even so you sound like you know what you're doing but it just worries me running that turbo, at that boost level, with cams (more airflow of course), on 450s, even with meth.

 

[forcefed86]

Why's that? I don't see how cams could cause knock except for there being a higher cylinder pressure with cams, even so the OP has meth injection so knock probably isn't something worth worrying about.

OP: As stated you really need to get some fuel mods, if you could even get an adjustable fpr and turn the pressure up a little bit it'd help keep you on the safe side, even so you sound like you know what you're doing but it just worries me running that turbo, at that boost level, with cams (more airflow of course), on 450s, even with meth.

I searched the forum pretty well before posting the last question. I think he may be referring to the fact that the BC cams have a reputation for being a little"off" right out of the box. Since they mass produce there cams w/ cheaper machining they can offer them at a lower cost. But because of the cheaper machine work they just aren't as exact as some of the other more expensive brands and need to be degreed in w/ adjustable cam gears. Which I don't have. I was looking for the RPM band these cams start and stop making power.

Thanks for the input on the fuel setup. I'm at 14lbs at the moment and the wideband is at low 11:7 at WOT. I don't have the scan master hooked up so I'm not sure of injector DC. I'm sure it's pretty high. I'm looking into a dual image eprom that is set up for 750cc and it uses the evo air meter. I hear thats the hot ticket for stock like drive-ability. I'll probably end up going that route.

 

[CanadianTSi]

Since nobody has given you a real answer. I wouldn't be surprised if the car traps 110 now.

 

[95redturboawd]

You're running a 255 without an AFPR?

 

[tragdor]

In reply to your question "I managed to find the dimensional specs on these BC 272's. I can't find the RPM ranges they are targeted for...?"

From MAPerformance's site regarding BC 272s

"Stage 2 - 272/272 (64413-2)
Most popular profile for street/strip.
Excellent all purpose turbo.
RPM Range: 1000 to 8000. "

Hope that helps.

 

[habitatguy187]

You're running a 255 without an AFPR?

It's been suggested that the 1g fpr is much stronger than the 2g, many people even run the 255hp on the stock 1g fpr without troubles.

 

[forcefed86]

It's been suggested that the 1g fpr is much stronger than the 2g, many people even run the 255hp on the stock 1g fpr without troubles.

Which year FPR's have the TINY .1" return orifice? Is that only the 2g's that have this issue?
I hear it results in a non-linear fuel flow, makes the car run rich, and harder to tune. Couldn't this just be drilled out a bit?

This also doesn't make sense to me. Because all an aftermarket FPR does is restrict the amount of fuel being returned to the tank thus upping the pressure at the injector rail. So by installing a 255 walbro I'd be upping the base fuel pressure as well right? Anyone know how high the FP goes just swapping in a walbro? Over in the DSM chips forum, the moderator suggests running as much as 50 base FP to get the most out of a particular injector.

 

[habitatguy187]

Anyone know how high the FP goes just swapping in a walbro? Over in the DSM chips forum, the moderator suggests running as much as 50 base FP to get the most out of a particular injector.

It seems that it just depends on the fpr, some claim that theirs gets over-run, others don't. As for the .1 orifice I have no idea, and that's an interesting suggestion on the base fuel pressure, I say crank it and run e85!

 

[Demon33]

Setup

1993 Eagle Talon TSI AWD
131K, 5 speed, 6/4 Bolt, Full power, Sun roof
20K on rebuilt motor. New rings and bearings, polished crank, valve job, head surfaced , new valve stem seals, New water pump, timing belt, tensioner and all belts and hoses.

walbro 255 hp pump, factory injectors and FPR.

Rebuilt Transmission and ACT 2600 clutch kit (shifts smooth)

FP Performance Mitsu Big 16G EVO 3 turbo and EVO 3 o2 housing. Both are ported and coated in a high temp black coating. Ported 2G exhaust manifold. Buschur racing 2 ½” full exhaust.

Eibach lowering springs, KYB AGX rear struts, KYB GR2 front struts. Kuhmo 225/50/16 tires.

Car has run a best of 12.70 at 106 with stock IC and cams @ 20 psi and 110 octane fuel.

Since we've added 3G lifters and BC 272 cams, and a large spearco FMIC. Core measures 24" long, 8" high, and 3.5" wide. Also added a devils own alcohol injection kit with a 7gph nozzle @ 250psi using 100% meth.

Hoping to be able to run 20psi on pump gas with the new IC and alky injection. What kind of HP gains can I expect from above modifications? Quarter mile estimates?

20 PSI on 100% meth should be no problem. I'm currently seeing 24 PSI at the top of 3rd gear using 91 octane, 40% meth through a 7 gph nozzle with zero knock. I have an evo3 16g turbo, ported 2g maifold, 2g MAS, supra smic, 3" turbo back, UICP, AFPR, 190 LPH pump, 660cc injectors, eprom chip, HKS 264/272 cams and tuned with a SAFCII. Before the meth, I could only manage about 18 PSI @ 10.5 AFR with a little knock and I had my timing retarded to about 1-2 degrees BTDC and injector duty cycle was about 95%. Since the meth, I've been able to increase my timing back to 5 degrees BTDC, increased my boost by about 7 PSI and leaned it out to about 11.1-11.3 AFR with 83%-85% injector duty cycle. Meth is great! Sorry, but I don't know what the HP gains or MPH gains have been, as I haven't been to the track of the dyno yet.

 

[MrBoxx]

U are a friendly lot aren't ya!

Why wouldn't someone be able to ask approx HP gains from added performance parts? I'm not looking for exact numbers here. But I'm sure there are guys out there that have done similar upgrades that could give me some useful information.

Bench racing is to discuss "which is faster?" or "Which would win in a race?" between two cars. I'm asking about my car specifically. What is wrong with that?

We take "bench racing" to mean any question that does not have an answer. Putting one set of BC280 cams on one car with your setup will gain a totally different amount of power than putting it on a different car with the same setup. All cars are not created equal. Same for what kind of track times you'll run. We have no way of telling how well the car is going to run on any given track day, with any given driver, with any given setup. If you looked at my mods and I asked you what kind of times I should be able to run, you'd say 12's, maybe 11's. That's not the case, however. Every car, driver, and track are different, so we can't give you an answer. If you want ideas about it, look in the dyno and 1/4 mile charts to see guys running the same turbo you are, look at their modifications, and compare. That'll give you an idea what you should be looking at for your car.

Also, remember to use proper spelling in the forums. "You" is not spelled "U". Thank you.