Need meth injection tuning tips guidelines from the guys that run it

[turboglenn]

This week my alky injection kit will be here and my cams as well.

i plan on base lining my car on the dyno before installing them,

then after the install I'm going to tune to the same boosts on pump gas alone for a comparison on the 264/272's over stock

then I'm cranking the boost and adding some timing ( i hope ) when i ordered the kit Chance had told me that 1-2lbs more boost and 2 degrees more timing was a typical improvement. I had been under the impression that i could run much higher boost and timing ( I'm thinking 22-24* timing and 23-24 PSI ) I'm going to be rather disappointed if i can only gain 1-2 psi and 2* timing in the top end

You guys that run alky injection..how much timing were you able to add and how much more boost are you running without significant knock? I can't monitor knock unless i'm on the dyno and i'm going to base tune on the street before going back to teh dyno for the full test of teh cams and alky injection. I hope to have some very nice dyno sheets afterwards, if not i'm burning the car

 

[GORBS88]

This week my alky injection kit will be here and my cams as well.

i plan on base lining my car on the dyno before installing them,

then after the install I'm going to tune to the same boosts on pump gas alone for a comparison on the 264/272's over stock

then I'm cranking the boost and adding some timing ( i hope ) when i ordered the kit Chance had told me that 1-2lbs more boost and 2 degrees more timing was a typical improvement. I had been under the impression that i could run much higher boost and timing ( I'm thinking 22-24* timing and 23-24 PSI ) I'm going to be rather disappointed if i can only gain 1-2 psi and 2* timing in the top end

You guys that run alky injection..how much timing were you able to add and how much more boost are you running without significant knock? I can't monitor knock unless i'm on the dyno and i'm going to base tune on the street before going back to teh dyno for the full test of teh cams and alky injection. I hope to have some very nice dyno sheets afterwards, if not i'm burning the car

Well it all depends on how much you are goin to run (cc), And what ratio of meth and water (if any). With my setup i am running m5 and m3 nozzles which is just over 600cc/min if im not mistaken, and i was able to add 2 degrees and 4-5 psi.
So in total i am running 16 degrees max timing at 28-29 psi on 94 octane. I will be adding more meth soon to as i am goin with a bigger turbo and mabe more boost, at that point i will be running a m10 around 760cc/min with a 50/50 mix.
Hope this helps.

 

[turboglenn]

I think the kit i ordered (Devilsown) comes with a 3 5 and 8 nozzles. Are you running 2 seprerate nozzles at once or just using both those nozzles swapping them out for different conditions? I would be happy running 24 PSI at 22* timing ( i curently run 20 by redline with a progressive curve up to it. wondering what nozzle to start with for a 57 trim stock head with cams with everything that's needed to support it to it's full potential.

 

[GORBS88]

I think the kit i ordered (Devilsown) comes with a 3 5 and 8 nozzles. Are you running 2 seprerate nozzles at once or just using both those nozzles swapping them out for different conditions? I would be happy running 24 PSI at 22* timing ( i curently run 20 by redline with a progressive curve up to it. wondering what nozzle to start with for a 57 trim stock head with cams with everything that's needed to support it to it's full potential.

I am running both nozzles at the same time, i have a TEE in the line.
If those nozzles are rated the same as cooling mist ones then i would start with the M5. As for me i like to push things to the limit but i dont want to give the wrong advise because of that.
I tune right on the edge with 5-7 counts of knock and as much boost as i can get away with on pump gas, which is around 28-29 or so.
So throw in that m5 and start to lean it out abit.

 

[turboglenn]

How much timing are you running

And second...How much water/alky do i have to run to get what's described below. This information is straight from the DSM-WiKi.

Absorbing all that heat intensely cools the combustion chamber: primarily the piston top and any hotspots that may cause the fuel to pre-ignite. However, a large quantity of the water is not completely vaporized. Once the air/fuel mix is compressed and ignited by the spark plug, high heat is released and absorbed by the semi-vaporous water mist. This turns the rest of the water to vapor and in the process slows the actual burn rate of the air/fuel mix to a rate very similar to over 110-octane race fuel. Therefore, it is applicable to say that, if the proper amount of water is delivered BEFORE vaporization, you can perform the same tasks such as high boost, 30+ degree timing advance, 13-14:1 air/fuel ratios. Remember, you've supplied pump gas and a few CCs of water!

Those are the results I'm after!

 

[GORBS88]

How much timing are you running

And second...How much water/alky do i have to run to get what's described below. This information is straight from the DSM-WiKi.


Those are the results I'm after!

As i stated in my first post i am running 16 degrees timing with 28-29 psi.
I dont have any idea how much you would have to inject to get those numbers, but im sure it's waaay more then i'm running.

 

[T9S1i]

what a/f ratios are people running when they are injecting meth. I know reading lambda for this is more accurate, but ive heard both sides of " lean it out with meth" and to run in the 10.5:1 area as well.

Anybody with a nicely tuned meth setup have a wideband reading that they shoot for and have success with?

 

[turboglenn]

I was told that the meth would add .5 on the rich side of whatever tune you go for, so say you tune to 11:1, then you inject meth it weill be 10.5:1 or at least that's the way i took what was said to me on the phone when ordering it.

 

[turboglenn]

As i stated in my first post i am running 16 degrees timing with 28-29 psi.
I dont have any idea how much you would have to inject to get those numbers, but im sure it's waaay more then i'm running.

I would be fine with that even, i just don't plan on running it quite that high of boost. My compressor is in peak efficiency arround 23-24psi so that's where i'm shooting for, then I'm just tuning t0 11.2:1 or so, then advancing timing until there's knock and backing of it a couple degrees from there.

 

[GORBS88]

I would be fine with that even, i just don't plan on running it quite that high of boost. My compressor is in peak efficiency arround 23-24psi so that's where i'm shooting for, then I'm just tuning t0 11.2:1 or so, then advancing timing until there's knock and backing of it a couple degrees from there.

Sounds good, if you are running lower boost like that then i think you should be able to get away with more timing then me. 23-24 psi you (should) beable to run 17-18 degrees no problem.
As for a/f ratio i am running the same ratio i was when i was running just gas, i am running the same wideband without reading lambda and have had no problems.
You are right that it will richen the tune, i had to lean it out .5-.75 of a point to get it back to the same ratio i was before hand. I shoot for low to mid 11 a/f now and it works great, and have had no issues running it like this for 2 years now.
At that point you can also adjust the boost level that it comes on to, right now i have it coming on real early at 7psi so theres no chance of knock on boost onset.

 

[turboglenn]

Well, since i already run 20* timing at 20psi, i think i may just try and keep the same timing curve and go for more boost, or maybe even back off timing and run even more boost to say maybe 26 PSI. It's not like i have enough traction problems with a 360hp DD tune why not shoot for 425 dd horses? At least that's my ultimate goal on pump gas. I've driven around at 24 on C16 before running slicks on the streets and i still had traction issues, but i think I'm going with M&H slicks this year, the Mickey Thompsons don't seem to do well on FWD cars.

 

[T9S1i]

thanks for the info guys, im getting more and more amped to re-install my methanol setup

 

[GORBS88]

Well, since i already run 20* timing at 20psi, i think i may just try and keep the same timing curve and go for more boost, or maybe even back off timing and run even more boost to say maybe 26 PSI. It's not like i have enough traction problems with a 360hp DD tune why not shoot for 425 dd horses? At least that's my ultimate goal on pump gas. I've driven around at 24 on C16 before running slicks on the streets and i still had traction issues, but i think I'm going with M&H slicks this year, the Mickey Thompsons don't seem to do well on FWD cars.

Sounds like fun, i don't have to worry to much about traction since im AWD but somtimes in 2nd gear depending on the road it gets abit hairy.
If i were you then i would leave the timing the same for now and slowly turn up the boost like you said, you might be suprised and beable to get away with 25psi and 20 degrees!!! Make sure you keep us updated on what you do.
Once it warms up around here and i get the new act 2900 in i will be trying my new m10 nozzle and hope to keep the boost the same but add some timing.

 

[daren_p]

I believe the Devils own kits comes with the M3, M5 & M7 nozzles. Personally I'd probably go straight to the 7. I ran the M5 on mine last summer & will probably use an M10 this year. I'm running FP1X cams, which tend to be knock happy on pump gas. So pre meth I was about 18psi & 14-15 deg by redline, to mostly prevent knock. After meth I coulod run around 22-23 psi & see around 17 deg advance by redline. With your kind of goals & the cams you'll be running, you may get away with the M5 but if you nozzles in a location thats a pain to chance, I'd go straight to the 7. I know guys who run larger nozzles then that with similar power, so you shouldn't have issues with the 7 being to large. As for air/fuel, yes I had to remove some fuel to get my air/fuel back to where it was pre meth. Didn't really pay to much attention but was probably .5 or so rich, like you mentioned.

 

[Calan]

Interesting thread... what mix are you guys running?

 

[GORBS88]

Interesting thread... what mix are you guys running?

50/50 mix.

 

[turboglenn]

I believe the Devils own kits comes with the M3, M5 & M7 nozzles. Personally I'd probably go straight to the 7. I ran the M5 on mine last summer & will probably use an M10 this year. I'm running FP1X cams, which tend to be knock happy on pump gas. So pre meth I was about 18psi & 14-15 deg by redline, to mostly prevent knock. After meth I coulod run around 22-23 psi & see around 17 deg advance by redline. With your kind of goals & the cams you'll be running, you may get away with the M5 but if you nozzles in a location thats a pain to chance, I'd go straight to the 7. I know guys who run larger nozzles then that with similar power, so you shouldn't have issues with the 7 being to large. As for air/fuel, yes I had to remove some fuel to get my air/fuel back to where it was pre meth. Didn't really pay to much attention but was probably .5 or so rich, like you mentioned.

I wanted a larger nozzle but Chance assured me that i wouldn't use anythign larger than the biggest one in the kit ( i think he said M8 ). Now i'm regretting not telling him to just send me bigger ones anyway because that's what i tried to until he talked me out of it

 

[daren_p]

I wanted a larger nozzle but Chance assured me that i wouldn't use anythign larger than the biggest one in the kit ( i think he said M8 ). Now i'm regretting not telling him to just send me bigger ones anyway because that's what i tried to until he talked me out of it

I know several guys that are making around the 400whp mark & they run the M10 to M14 nozzles. I went with the M5 first as I was trying to go as small as I could & still get the results I wanted. It did allow me to add around 4 psi & a couple more degrees of timing, so it depends on how much you want to gain. As I said my cams are knock happy on pump so you may get abit more out of the same sized nozzle. When I got my kit the M7 was the largest of the 3, I thought about just stepping up to the 7 but I figure I might as well go with the 10, then I shouldn't have to add any NOS octane booster when I want to run 25-26psi at the track without any kncok. I to am running a 50/50 mix & I don't bother with the pre-mixed washer fluid, I mix my own so I know for sure what ratio I'm running.