Need HELP!! Do I need new rings???

[stevecbr929]

ok, i've got a 95 awd tsi - pretty much stock - injen intake, slowboy ported exhaust manifold, recirculated 1g bov w/192,XXX well maintained miles but still on stock t25, stock pistons & rings, just recently i replaced clutch.

now with the issue - i had a balance belt break about 8K ago - took out timing belt/took out valves. bought rebuilt head, & ebay head gasket & belts (i know, im w/o job BROKE). all went together no problem (pretty much, learned hard way about crank & cam sensors - both are new as well). that's the history up to the latest greatest disaster.

driving at night about 2 miles from my house, car started bogging down, so i pulled over 2 check it out. coolant pouring out from radiator - it was highway back 2 my house, no traffic & guages all read ok so i nursed her at 55 to my driveway where i let her sit 4 a couple of hours to cool. wanted to get her in garage so i started her up once cool & no problem, drove right in. ended up being a quarter sized hole from the inside out toward front of car - 1 of the fan blades was split in half so im thinking blade tagged whatever flew in & ruined my month.

so i ordered a nice aluminum radiator & slim fans for $150 on ebay & picked up both hoses at local parts store. once all was in, installed all - no problem. when i started it up, she didn't want to take any throttle for a minute - would hesitate before revving, not getting any boost.

went to parts store, rented compression tool, found out i was about 100 lbs low on all 4. read, 50 lbs on 1st 3 cyl, then 60 lbs on #4. i got hold of my local dsm tuner know all guy & he first schooled me on my poor choices on where i shopped & refrerred me to extreme psi. he told me to get oem head gasket & arp head bolts. even though im on my ass broke & can't in any way afford to throw parts at her, i listened becasue this guy has never been wrong in any advice hes offered me & pointed out that at least this way, i'd be starting out knowing everything was all good. he's totally right.

so got all the stuff plus went ahead & bought gates timing & balance belt cause if they broke because im cheap - well you know, so i got the good stuff & oil pan gasket too. brought the head out to get checked & decked to great shop dsm friend referred me too - head was warped he said but all was cool he said when he was through & i picked up.

put it all back together & just finished up last night - wouldn't start - battery's lasted 7 years & finally died, so i spent my last dollars on new one this morning. moment of truth, she lit right up but something wasn't right. triple checked everything - timing, etc. everything looks good, so i went back to rent compression tool.

its like nothing changed at all. all 4 cyl are giving me same psi as before all the work.

so im thinking - i really have to tear this all down again?? how am i gonna get a job to pay for this??? bad things..

is it the rings? im thinking thats all it really could be - but at that, can i just get new rings or do i need to get bearings, etc?? sure, id love to just get some of those fordged pistons on those pretty rods but im all out of money..

any suggestions on what it might be or what best way to attack this would be appreciated - thanks!

 

[And_44]

Did you try a wet compression test? Pour about a cap of oil into each cylinder let it sit for a few minutes and do the test. If the test results are way better then yea rings. If not your problem is else where. Next would be a leakdown check. Can do a search on forum for the leak down test.

 

[stevecbr929]

i heard of the wet test but didn't know how to do it - thanks. ill give it a try in the morning & get back w/results.

if it is the rings, is it a total waste & can i do "just" the rings? id like to do more but right now, i just need her to run so i can get $ to put back into her...

 

[Absit]

No, you can't do just the rings, you need to hone too.

 

[stevecbr929]

Did you try a wet compression test? Pour about a cap of oil into each cylinder let it sit for a few minutes and do the test. If the test results are way better then yea rings. If not your problem is else where. Next would be a leakdown check. Can do a search on forum for the leak down test.

ok - so i did the wet test & im getting about 150 psi.

any recommendations what/where to get rings? i see different brands, sizes, ect... I can probably rent a hone at local autoparts store i think - gonna go check now - gotta return compression tool.

 

[Absit]

150 PSI across all 4? You're well within spec, don't tear it apart.

 

[stevecbr929]

150 PSI across all 4? You're well within spec, don't tear it apart.

i wish it were 150 all across - it was only AFTER the "wet" test. before i poured the oil down the sparkplug hole, the first 3 cyl were around 50 psi and #4 was at 60 psi.

 

[Below Ambient]

time for a leakdown test... im guessing valves or seals...

 

[stevecbr929]

time for a leakdown test... im guessing valves or seals...

when i had the head off, i brought it to a good local shop where it was decked. he did a leakdown (or whatever it is a shop would do to a head) & said the head's ok. if its loosing compression, he said it wasn't in the head, so i've eliminated that.

my understanding on the "wet" compression test is if after you pour capful of oil in cyl, if the compression jumps much higher than its been, you have bad rings - yeah??

Did you try a wet compression test? Pour about a cap of oil into each cylinder let it sit for a few minutes and do the test. If the test results are way better then yea rings. If not your problem is else where. Next would be a leakdown check. Can do a search on forum for the leak down test.

what he said?

 

[And_44]

Yea, with results like that when wet you rings are shot.

You can replace the rings with engine in car but really isn't the perfect way. If doing it anyway I'd recommend checking with proper measuring devices the cylinders and crank journals to make sure their still in spec. If not then more work is need. Cylinder out of spec you need to bore. Crank out of spec a new crank or if you want to risk it have it reground. But both those involve removing the block from car and sending to machine shop. If those are good then you'd just need to hone the cylinders and rering the pistons. Honing the cylinders is VERY important (it roughens the cylinder walls) or your rings won't have anything to create friction with and won't seat or seal right upon break in.

Risk of doing this in car is that you have to keep it very clean don"t want to mess up your crank with debris. Also very strongly recommended to check crank and cylinders to make sure there in spec. Can find the procedures for checking them with a few searchs to. If your in spec should be relativly cheap for piston rings, while your in there I'd get new rod bearings (personal preference), head gasket, new timing belt, oil pan sealant/gasket, a few oil changes and filters for break in, and tool rentals. And the most expensive your time.

If you do some searches you can find the procedure in the forums for replacing piston rings while engine is in car. It involves removing oil pan and head. Yes your head for a 3rd time sucks. New timing belt and gasket. By doing this you can undo the rod caps down below and pull the piston and rod through top.

Do the search for mini engine rebuild and replacing piston rings and should find some good reading.

Sorry forgot to add. But should really really really measure your cylinders. Doing so not only tells you the condition of them but will also tell you what size rings you need. As for brands. Find whats in your price range and search the forums for reviews peeps are constantly reviewing, argueing, and giving opinions on different brands.

 

[stevecbr929]

Yea, with results like that when wet you rings are shot.

You can replace the rings with engine in car but really isn't the perfect way. If doing it anyway I'd recommend checking with proper measuring devices the cylinders and crank journals to make sure their still in spec. If not then more work is need. Cylinder out of spec you need to bore. Crank out of spec a new crank or if you want to risk it have it reground. But both those involve removing the block from car and sending to machine shop. If those are good then you'd just need to hone the cylinders and rering the pistons. Honing the cylinders is VERY important (it roughens the cylinder walls) or your rings won't have anything to create friction with and won't seat or seal right upon break in.

Risk of doing this in car is that you have to keep it very clean don"t want to mess up your crank with debris. Also very strongly recommended to check crank and cylinders to make sure there in spec. Can find the procedures for checking them with a few searchs to. If your in spec should be relativly cheap for piston rings, while your in there I'd get new rod bearings (personal preference), head gasket, new timing belt, oil pan sealant/gasket, a few oil changes and filters for break in, and tool rentals. And the most expensive your time.

If you do some searches you can find the procedure in the forums for replacing piston rings while engine is in car. It involves removing oil pan and head. Yes your head for a 3rd time sucks. New timing belt and gasket. By doing this you can undo the rod caps down below and pull the piston and rod through top.

Do the search for mini engine rebuild and replacing piston rings and should find some good reading.

thanks so much man - another question is this: during all of this i did replace ebay head gasket (i know, never again) w/factory gasket, ARP headbolts, new oil pan gasket (while i was waiting on other parts ).

all of these parts have 0 miles, just turning over in garage to check compression. im broke & need to know if i can reuse headgasket, oilpan gasket, headbolts? they've only been bolted together for about 48 hours. same goes w/oil, oil filter, coolant. i know its best to pull engine & check tolerances but i need car to get job/need job 2 live - u know?

you guys think i can reuse this stuff? my local dsm know all advice guy (DSM Thunder) says to go with total seal 2nd gapless rings & i can find at horsepowerparts.com. i checked local parts store & they rent both the hone & ring compressor. any advice before i order rings? thanks again for all the input

 

[Below Ambient]

i would just re-ring it in the car... you can get a hone for a drill at napa fairly cheap..

 

[And_44]

You can check tolerances with everything installed in car. Just need to get the right meters.

Um, I know the oil pan gasket you could reuse just coat it and surface with some RTV sealant, think I've read others used the grey or black stuff.

As for the ARP head studs, I know on a 1g with stock studs you can reuse stockers unsure about the ARP's though, with a few searchs you can find an answer about reusing ARP head studs loads of peeps use them and sure its a common post. With them being torqued unsure if there is some stretch.

Your head gasket though I wouldn't reuse it maybe with a n/a but being boosted wouldn't risk it. Your preference though.

As for your current coolant and oil. Coolant can always be reused if it isn't contaminated with oil, rust or dirt. Just drain it into a sealable container (ie milk gallons).

Engine oil could reuse store same way but if it smells of gas or dirty recycle it. Oil filter sure for initial break in. When you break in your new rings your going to want to use pure dino oil no synthetic so cheap oil will do just fine with NO detergents. After 50 miles your going to have to change oil and filter. Then again at 500 oil and filter again. And then after the 500 can start with synthetic or what ever your choice is.

At 50 miles you should of done a proper break in by then to seat the new rings, do it at 50 to flush out the oil that will be carrying any debris from honing and any other grit. Up to 500 miles should be normal driving nothing to extreme and try to avoid cruising, this is done for same reason as 50. Keep boost at stock levels.

If you have synthetic oil in now and its good save it for the 500 oil change. At your 50, 500, and next 3000 mile oil changes check your compression. After the 500 miles drive it like you stole it.

Sorry about keep saying "do a search" don't want to come off as rude, I try to cover as much as I can and know those searchs wil give you a better answer then I could. Keep us updated.

 

[arrowhead]

Get some help if not you will have the same problems all over again a proper re-ring job is not cheap and a lot of other things could also go wrong.

Good luck.

 

[stevecbr929]

The rings were bad & to top it off, the local parts store gave me the wrong rings. Right part # but the oil rings wouldn't fit. I thought I was doing something wrong - I've done rings before but only on a motorcycle. After destoying 1 pistons worth of oil rings, I decided to bring a piston & set of my old (still proper fit) and all of the new rings I bought to the local shop where I bought them. Over the phone they pretty much told me I ruined a set so they were mine. They couldn't get them on either, so I got my cash back & bought some oem rings on ebay & a new waterpump with the cash I saved.

New rings went on without any problems at all. Rented a hone from shop - it worked great - I'm lucky they don't come in different sizes.

Car went back together without any issues & fired right up with strong compression all the way across!! Did my 3rd gear pulls & changed oil & filter.

Thanks so much for all the tips & advice. DSM Thunder lives out here close to where I'm at & I can't count how many times I hit him up with all kinds of questions & he always got back to me with the answer (the right one too) - gotta give him thanks. I ask too many damn questions...

Met another way cool DSM Tuners guy today who made me killer deal on Apexi N1 & downpipe. Then he GAVE me a 14b with a broken bolt (that's all that's wrong with it!), a t25, & a bunch of misc good stuff for my ride. Way cool of him thanks again to ludevtec93.

Gonna get the pipe on tomorrow hopefully & try to find a j pipe so I can get that 14b going.

 

[ENICKB]

i have been sold the wrong rings time and time again.... whats wrong with those people??? happy new year fellow dsm brothers!!!!


DSMS---> testing mechanics patience, one car at a time.

 

[suprasalas]

next time if your buying the oem head gasket buy it at autozone.. you get 1 year warranty on it, so you wouldn't waste your money buy one again..