Need advice on the evo 16g set up.

[VicBoost]

Okay i got a pretty much stock 4g63. I got a aftermarket BOV, air intake, exhaust, don't think i got a downpipe. But anyways what do i need to make this set up work to its full potential. I want to get the full 400whp out of this turbo. By the way its the MHI EVO III 16G from slowboy http://www.slowboyracing.com/more.php?id=52&. It was dynoed at 400whp.

 

[Ultimatedsm]

Okay i got a pretty much stock 4g63. I got a aftermarket BOV, air intake, exhaust, don't think i got a downpipe. But anyways what do i need to make this set up work to its full potential. I want to get the full 400whp out of this turbo. By the way its the MHI EVO III 16G from slowboy http://www.slowboyracing.com/more.php?id=52&. It was dynoed at 400whp.

I hope this thread answers your question .

 

[Newlogics]

Are you joking? Is that sarcasim... I'm hoping and praying it is with that many rep bars.

You can't possibly think the E3 is the ideal turbo for 400hp... If you do, you're out of your mind, plain and simple.

The logic comes in UNDERstressing your parts. Why on earth would you want to pound the life out of a small turbo to flow 100hp more than it was designed to, when you could just get a 20G, FP Green, SCM series and do it with ease? Speed cost money, deal with it or find a new hobby. The SCM's are only like $850 and are bolt on. These larger turbos aren't even breaking a sweat and will be blowing some nice cool air (relatively). The air coming out of an E3 trying to make 400hp could burn the sun. So what's the point? Not to mention power delivery on that Slowboy test was a joke. That thing made peak torque off idle and then dropped like a stone. Anything over 6,000rpm is useless, that's not a power band I like, I want it to PULL to the limiter, not die off to the limiter.

Can you mow a 3 acre field with a weekwacker? Can you cook a turkey with a cigar ligher? Can you wash your car with a cotton ball? Sure.... but WHY?WTF

Why stick to Evo16G? Simple. It makes for a GREAT street drivability, doesn't limit your car to drag racing and is superbly reliable. Have you seen flow differences between Evo16G and 20G ? You think it justifies the price?

Will it be easier to make 400whp with bigger turbo? Yep. Doing that on a street car that you plan to actually enjoy, Evo16G is a more efficient way to do it. I've built more then one car with whole range of setups, and people tend to enjoy evo16g based setups much more.

 

[MyBeatGSX]

You guys read into theseposts too much with your own opinions, biases, and preferences for your cars. The guy asked a simple question, he wants 400hp.

Ask anyone with a 50trim, those things are plenty "streetable". This quick spool for the street thing is bull. Do you race your way to work? The only time I need boost is when I'm racing, and in that case I can deal with the lag because its only going to be there for about a 1/4 second after the launch. He didn't mention auto-x, and honestly I don't care what turbo you have, 400hp is disgusting overkill for an auto-x car and you won't be keeping it on the track no matter how linier the power delivery. I just want my car to go fast when I put the pedal to the floor even if I have to wait a few seconds, I don't need instant boost so I can weave in and out of traffic in neighborhoods or pass school buses before they get the stop sign out all the way. Seriously, how do you people drive on the street that you need this instant boost on demand? This has come up many times before and I've always had this same response. My car has sufficient power to get me and a passanger around town, up and down hills, and cruise on the highway without ever hitting boost.

And yes, ANY turbo that will flow 400hp easily is worth the money. The few hunderd extra you spend on a turbo will be saved in alky/water injection, tuning time, and much greater reliablity. I'm not a 20G supporter, but it is an opition. As I said before, the SCM's are bolt on and are all in the mid $800 range. $300 is a small premium to pay for a far better and more capable turbo for that power level.

 

[ShapeGSX]

I use part throttle and hit small amounts (<10psi) of boost all the time with my Evo III 16G. The fact that it spools up so fast makes it next to impossible NOT to hit boost often. (shrug) That is what makes it a fun and very drivable turbo.

Just because you are getting positive boost in every day driving doesn't mean you are automatically a WOT maniac.

I rarely, if ever go WOT in my car on the street. It is just too much acceleration for most situations.

 

[MyBeatGSX]

Mine makes 20psi at 2,800rpm, I know all about fast spool and low boost threshold (and I still don't hit boost once on my ride to work). That's not the point. I don't see how people complain about slow spool of larger turbos being "not streetable" or "not fun to drive". Why not? The only sence in which they aren't streetable is that when power does hit its rediculous and violent. Which is fine with me, if you want to go fast on an open stretch of road then make the commitment and go all out.

But why do people need full boost on demand? Is full boost under 4,000pm really required to drive to the grocery store? Of course not. Please explain to me why your car isn't capable of getting around town without hitting instant boost at 2,000rpm... thus making it impossible for you to run a 50trim or bigger.

I just don't understand this "driveable" turbo thing. Unless you have a 1.8T VW or a Saab that are completely incapable of moving under NA power alone, then what do you need an instant spool turbo or around town boost for?

 

[ShapeGSX]

Dude, I drive to work at 85mph on the highway with the A/C on, up and down hills. You get boost with an Evo III 16G with the throttle barely cracked in that situation. (shrug)

Why do people want strong engines at all? Why do people want V8s? People like torque low in the RPM range. The Evo III 16G delivers (well, as much as it can on a 2.0L).

 

[MyBeatGSX]

If you want off idle torque, get a diesel truck.

To each his own I guess. But I'll take the torque where its going to make the most power, up high. You can keep that off idle stuff incase you ever want to go rock crawling in that thing.

But to get back and relate this to the topic. You will not get a reliable 400hp on a 2.0L motor and still have off idle boost threshold and instant response. You can't have it all. You want an instant 400hp? Get a GTO. If you can wait a few seconds for your 400hp, then keep your car and buy an appropriately sized turbo (20G or bigger).

 

[crazy4dsm]

wut is an FMIC ??

 

[MyBeatGSX]

That was random as all hell.

FMIC = Front Mount InterCooler

www.vfaq.com Go to the 1000 already answered questions page.

 

[ShapeGSX]

I'll take the best of both worlds and run 11s and get great torque for everyday driving. There is a reason it is a popular turbo. I like it. It is fun.

That may not be the best for you (though you seem to run an Evo III 16G, wtf?), but then I never claimed it was. You obviously know what is best for everyone, though.

 

[MyBeatGSX]

Of course I do.

And yes, ironically I also run an E3. I'm regreting buying it, which explains why I'm taking all my anger out on you. But as soon as you dyno at or over 400hp on this thing, be sure to let me know.

 

[ShapeGSX]

You will be waiting a while. I'm not going to dyno my car. It is a waste of money.

You tune the car on the dyno and the moment you get to the track, you throw those settings out the window. I've seen it happen a ton of times. So WTF did you just dyno for? For a number? To brag? Bah!

Tune at the track using real conditions and you will get much better results.

Tom Noonen dynoed 413hp with his Evo III. Good enough for me.

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/showthread.php?t=156794&page=5&highlight=tom+dyno

 

[MyBeatGSX]

WTF WTF WTF

I'll end this one right here. You don't even want to get me started on these hard core DSM'ers anti dyno non-logic.

Tune on a dyno when you don't have 19,000,000,000 variables to contend with and actually have a chart of the torque curve to go by. How do you tune when you don't know what you're doing with power? Just keep going leaner and more timing until you get knock? That's like getting one chance at dropping a golf ball in a cup for a million dollars in a 100' x 100' pitch black room. You walk around for awhile in what you think is correct direction and then say that because you haven't bumped into a wall yet, you must be right over the cup.

 

[ShapeGSX]

Yeah, all that dyno time seems to have done you a whole lot of good. Tune it yourself?

Anyway, I have a wideband installed in the car. I aim for around 11.7:1 or so. And after close to 3 years of tuning with this turbo, I know where the timing has to be to prevent knock and to get max power/torque. I don't advance the timing as much when I hit the boost peak at 5500RPMs after a shift. And I ramp it up quickly as RPMs increase. Not too fast, though, or you can cause knock.

I bet I have a lot fewer variables between 1/4mi passes than you have between your dyno run and the first time you go WOT on the street or at the track a week later. Think about that one. It is true.

You have to tune to the available conditions to get the max power and torque in those conditions. If you tune to the conditions on the dyno, they won't be the same as on the street or at the track, I guarantee it.

Argue all you want about tuning at the track, but it obviously works. If it didn't, I'd have the 266hp dyno plot and you would have the 11.8 timeslip with a 118mph trap.

 

[VicBoost]

You want to buy a $600 turbo and expect to make 400WHP??? I wouldn't be sarcastic if I were you. You have to spend a lot of money to put down 400 WHP. This is what you will be needing:

T3/T4 50 trim internally gated (I recommend external wastegate) = $699-$800
FIC750cc /w walbro 255 (walbro 190 won't cutt it) /w Aeromotive AFPR = $600-700
FMIC /w all the piping = $600-1000
ACT 2600 = $400-430
ACT flywheel = $220-280
DSMLINK, Ultimate Greddy, AEM = $600, $600, $2000 (At this point of SAFC won't compensate for those fuel injectors).
CAMS (272/272) $600
Timing Gears = $100-150
MBC/ Electonic = $50/$400-500 (Electronic will be more accurate overall when weather changes). Remember you will be boost 18psi + to make that power.
Suspension = $500-$1200 (For TEIN SS which is my favourite so far).
Front/Rear strat bars to increase ridgity = $120
Good tires for traction =$800-1000
Parts that will break at that power level = Tranny, driveshafts, CV shafts and engine.

Then you have to upgrade your stock engine =$2500
TRE/ SHEP Tranny + 4 spider gears = $2500

And after that you will to tune and tune and tune until you make 400WHP. After that upgrade your driving skills.

Well that was fun to type out. I hope you realize how much it really costs to make that kind of power reliably for everyday use.

Thank you for showing this. I already knew you have to do this. But with the rebuilt engine al you got to is just get bigger turbo and tune, tune and tune. There is no limit and you keep going. But i think 400hp on these cars is plenty especially with the AWD. Probably hit high 11's low 12's?

 

[MyBeatGSX]

Yeah, all that dyno time seems to have done you a whole lot of good. Tune it yourself?

Anyway, I have a wideband installed in the car. I aim for around 11.7:1 or so. And after close to 3 years of tuning with this turbo, I know where the timing has to be to prevent knock and to get max power/torque. I don't advance the timing as much when I hit the boost peak at 5500RPMs after a shift. And I ramp it up quickly as RPMs increase. Not too fast, though, or you can cause knock.

I bet I have a lot fewer variables between 1/4mi passes than you have between your dyno run and the first time you go WOT on the street or at the track a week later. Think about that one. It is true.

You have to tune to the available conditions to get the max power and torque in those conditions. If you tune to the conditions on the dyno, they won't be the same as on the street or at the track, I guarantee it.

Argue all you want about tuning at the track, but it obviously works. If it didn't, I'd have the 266hp dyno plot and you would have the 11.8 timeslip with a 118mph trap.

You're forgetting the fact that I dyno'd that with 18psi, a stock sidemount, a 2G TB, 2.5" exhaust, and only an SAFC to tune with. Of course I tuned it myself. Its just an SAFC, it only took like 10 pulls to get the A/F dead flat, there's nothing more you can do. Trust me I have plenty of tuning experience, almost entirely with Hondata however....

You're forgetting that your tuning conditions are worlds different run to run. 100% street tuning just doesn't work, street tuning is nessesary, but its done just to fine tune, smooth out, and make sure stuff really works, not to overhaul fuel and ignition maps. You don't KNOW that you're at max torque at every RPM point. How could you, you've never taken it to a dyno. Is your ass really that well calibrated?... I highly doubt it... Like I said, best guess and avoiding knock isn't even half the battle, you're back to the dark room again.

And yes, there's a big difference between dyno pulls and running on the street. But there's also an equally big difference between the time you went to the track to tune and 2 weeks later when you go to race. The difference with the dyno is that at least while you're tuning, you're in control of more variables. You're much better off on a dyno where you can see what your changes are doing to the torque curve... rather than just saying "hey I trapped 5 tenths faster this time, that must have made more power!" How do you know you're making the most of the available conditions when you don't even know what you're making?

 

[ShapeGSX]

You're forgetting the fact that I dyno'd that with 18psi, a stock sidemount, a 2G TB, 2.5" exhaust, and only an SAFC to tune with. Of course I tuned it myself. Its just an SAFC, it only took like 10 pulls to get the A/F dead flat, there's nothing more you can do. Trust me I have plenty of tuning experience, almost entirely with Hondata however....

The 2G throttle body won't make a much of a difference vs a 1G one. Trust me. I swapped them years ago, hoping to see any difference at all, and I just didn't.

How do you know that dead flat is where you want the fuel, particularly when you are also adjusting your timing advance when you adjust the fuel with an AFC?

You're forgetting that your tuning conditions are worlds different run to run. 100% street tuning just doesn't work, street tuning is nessesary, but its done just to fine tune, smooth out, and make sure stuff really works, not to overhaul fuel and ignition maps. You don't KNOW that you're at max torque at every RPM point.

So the 100% street tuning that I have done since 1997 (that's 9 years) when I bought the car brand new "just doesn't work?"

What is going to change from run to run? Air temp? A few degrees at best. Air pressure? Not likely to change much. Engine temp? Nope, I run my fans at max in the staging lanes, switching the engine on and off to circulate the coolant from time to time (my thermostat has 2 holes drilled in it for circulation when the thermostat is closed). My coolant temp drops to around 150F before my next run.

So what major variables are left? Traction and the driver. And I just take those into account when looking at my datalogs and timeslips. It is easy enough to do when you have enough experience.

How could you, you've never taken it to a dyno. Is your ass really that well calibrated?... I highly doubt it... Like I said, best guess and avoiding knock isn't even half the battle, you're back to the dark room again.

Actually, my ass isn't well calibrated at all. Sometimes I'll think that a run was killer, only to be disappointed when I get the slip.

1/8th mph and 1/4mi mph are good indicators. Are they good enough? Hell no. You have to use those indicators along with a good datalog. DSMLink datalogs also show your power and torque, which are calculated using RPM and the car's weight. The dyno simply uses the dyno drum RPM instead of engine RPM and the drum weight instead of the car's weight.

The datalogs also show you where you are getting knock. Small knock sensor blips are ignored. But larger ones indicate an issue that should be tuned out either with fuel or by lowering the timing advance at the RPM where the knock occurs.

I have a base ECU file that I use when I race. I came up with it based on the experience of a few hundred runs at the track. And based on the conditions at the track that day (mainly temperature), I dial the values up or down a tick and see how it does on my first run. After that, I adjust the values based on the datalog I got.

I only have 6 fuel and 6 timing sliders to adjust between 5000 and 7500RPM. And there isn't a whole lot of room to move them. At 5500RPM, when I hit 29psi, I have to dial the timing down and give it a little more fuel to keep it from knocking. Then as the boost slides down to 25psi, I can ramp the timing back up to the 21 to 22 degree peak that I normally try to hit.

I'm absolutely certain that my tune from a dyno would be radically different then my track tune because the 29psi boost peak would come earlier in the RPM band since I would be starting the dyno at a lower RPM than I launch. So at the track where I launch at 5250RPMs, I would have to change everything, anyway. A 29psi peak at 4000RPMs on the dyno means a completely different tune from when I hit 29psi at 5500RPMs.

Like I said, a dyno would be a waste of time and money for me. If I had a 3D map to adjust, I would likely hit the dyno.

And yes, there's a big difference between dyno pulls and running on the street. But there's also an equally big difference between the time you went to the track to tune and 2 weeks later when you go to race.

Of course, that is why you need to be prepared to tune the car on the fly whenever you go to the track.

The difference with the dyno is that at least while you're tuning, you're in control of more variables. You're much better off on a dyno where you can see what your changes are doing to the torque curve... rather than just saying "hey I trapped 5 tenths faster this time, that must have made more power!" How do you know you're making the most of the available conditions when you don't even know what you're making?

Because I'm running 118mph in a heavy-ass 2G with a freaking 16G on it.

 

[New2DSM2]

That was random as all hell.

You A$$! I was drinking pop and reading through this thread and I see this line. I spit my pop all over my monitor and KB laughing so hard. Jacka$$
Too Funny.

 

[MyBeatGSX]

That's what I'm here for, to make people laugh. Because I sure as hell have no idea what I'm talking about.