My 2.4 Build for my '97 Talon

[talonDSMerr]

Was a little worried when you mentioned something happened but was relieved when you said it was just a torn CV boot. Glad to hear nothing is wrong with the motor anymore (fingers crossed for you), and you aren't blowing anymore headgaskets! It must be a relief that you've figured that problem out!

 

[VETDRMS]

That is the cleanest 2gb talon i've seen!. Awesome build too!

Thanks, Alex. It has its issues but I keep coming back for more.

Was a little worried when you mentioned something happened but was relieved when you said it was just a torn CV boot. Glad to hear nothing is wrong with the motor anymore (fingers crossed for you), and you aren't blowing anymore headgaskets! It must be a relief that you've figured that problem out!

The most boost it has seen since the new head/gasket went in is 10psi so I can't really say if it is "fixed" or not yet. It might be a little while before I start beating on it again. It is good to be cruising though, for sure!

 

[bradcurtis15]

Almost ready for another pir attempt.

 

[VETDRMS]

The car has been running surprisingly well over the last month. I put about 1500 commuting miles on it. I get between 15-16mpg on E85 commuting, which is 16 miles one way and takes between 30-45 minutes.

I finally started turning it up a bit. It's currently at 20-21psi and feels good. The measured 0-60 times are decent for "low" boost. The MPH in Link reads a little low compared to GPS, 1-2mph slower. The attached log is about 3.35s. The best I have logged before at 25-26psi was 3.1s but it spun a little more in 1st at higher boost.

The fuel is pretty dialed in, but I am going to work on the timing map a little more.

 

[VETDRMS]

The car has been running well. I am burning $80/week in E85 though!

I installed an AEM oil pressure gauge over the weekend and plan log it in ECMlink on the baro input once I get some clarification whether or not I need a buffer circuit.

The forward-facing oil filter housing only has one stock oil port, so I am using a nickel plated steel cross to mount (1) the turbo feed line, (2) the stock dummy light, and (3) the AEM oil pressure sensor. The AEM sender is remote-mounted with some -3AN line. It is up by the power steering reservoir. Both lines were covered with some heavy-duty shrink tubing to reduce wear on parts touching the lines.

I also switched from conventional Valvoline VR1 to the synthetic VR1. The synthetic VR1 has a lower viscosity when cold, so there should be less wear on cold starts.

Oil pressure is 75-80psi cold, 15psi hot idle (206F, 850rpm), 50psi hot at 2000rpm, 60psi at 2500rpm, 85-90psi over 4000rpm/WOT. Based on this I will stick with the 20w50 over the winter. It really doesn't get much below freezing here. Considering there are no oil squirters or balance shafts I think this is pretty good and not excessive.

I also swapped out the Mishimoto 143F thermostat to a stock 180F thermostat for winter. Coasting down hill would bring temps too low now that is is cooler out. Coolant temps stay at 196F while driving and the fans come on at 206F. The higher temps should help with oil/moisture contamination during winter commuting. It actually idles/runs smoother at 200F than it did at 175F.

I also ordered a pair of knuckle kits to replace the compression arms.

A new set of stock OEM motor mounts are also on the way, being a commuter car I am sick of the vibrations. Removing the inserts from the rear mount helped a little bit but I'm sick of rattling keys.

I am going to try and schedule some dyno time if work will permit, stay tuned.

 

[camfast]

Major props and awesome build man! Hopefully you get it dyno soon and cant wait to see what it produces.

 

[DSMReviver]

Don't ever quit! You have a very beautiful car, i hate to see it being parted out.

If you get frustrated, set it aside for a little while. Then get back to it. That's how i deal with my car.

 

[VETDRMS]

Camfast: Thanks man, there seems to always be something left to do with this thing.

DSMReviver: I am ready for a break from working on it, but there is absolutely no plan to part this thing out. That would just make me sick, I couldn't do it.

 

[VETDRMS]

I've got a few updates, so this will probably be a pretty long post.

Oil Pressure Gauge Install:

First, I finally installed a proper oil pressure gauge. I went with the AEM 150psi gauge, although 100psi would have worked fine and given me more resolution. I wasn't sure what max WOT oil pressure would be.

I relocated a T up near the power steering reservoir. The AEM sender is attached directly to the T and then I ran the line along the top of the radiator to the turbo.

I just used what lines I had so the fit isn't perfect. The sender was more concealed before.

Before, I had the remote sensor line mounted to a T that fed the turbo and had the stock dummy light.

The T and the sending unit are up by the power steering reservoir.

Logging Oil Pressure in ECMLink:

I wanted to log it on the 2g baro input, which is known to have some issues with some sensors. The ECMlink wiki has a workaround that involves removing a resistor from the back of the ECU (R39).

I did not try to run it on the baro input without removing resistor 39, so I didn't find the answer to my question of whether or not it would work without modification.

Here is R39 removed, there was a fair amount of residue on the bottom of the board. I slid the resistor off with two 15w irons and then used copper thread to clean up the solder.

And here is oil pressure being logged in link!

AEM didn't send the voltage specs with the gauge. Just using 0v=0psi and 5v=150psi didn't work so I increased the start point with just the key on until both the gauge and link equaled 0, which was 0.45v=0psi.

I then started it and adjusted the upper point until the gauge and link matched, which turned out to be 4.45v=150psi.

WOT Oil Pressure Logged, Oscillating Signal:

I'm not sure if this is because some smoothing is needed or this is a typical observation of oil pressures read at the oil filter housing.

I have attached a log of a pull from a stand-still to about 80mph at ~21psi.

Oil pressure is logged with the analog output from an AEM 150psi gauge. The oil pressure sender is mounted 24" from the oil filter housing. It is hooked directly to a tee that then feeds the turbo. So logged oil pressure is actually representative of oil pressure at the turbo.

Would this read lower than the pressure at the main galley feed to the mains/rods?

The motor is a 2.4L with no balance shafts and no oil squirters.

Clearances are:

• Mains: 0.0028"
• Rods: 0.0030"

Oil is Valvoline VR1 Synthetic 20w50. Cold start oil pressure is 70-80psi. Hot idle oil pressure at 900rpm is 12-15psi, 40-45psi at 1500rpm, 50-55psi at 2000rpm, 60-65psi at 2500rpm, and 70psi at >3000rpm.

This is with a ported forward-facing oil filter housing:

Oil pressure is logged as LinFuelPressure in the attached log. Oil pressure oscillates several psi. It does this at all times, idle or cruise. I'm not sure if it's just an issue with the AEM gauge or sender, or just normal for oil pressure when monitored at a high sample rate.

Logged oil pressure drops from 75psi at 7000rpm to 67psi at 7100, then recovers, then drops from 79psi to 62psi right after the 1-2 shift. Does this look like the pickup is getting uncovered from the shift? At full line pressure the 1-2 shift is very harsh.

The stock relief valve opens at 80psi, correct? Could a sticking relief valve cause the drops? It seems to happen just after pressure hits 80psi. If the relief valve were sticking it would bleed off too much pressure.

 

[VETDRMS]

I've upped the boost a bit more to 25-26psi. Car feels great really doesn't seem to have any major issues. I am getting some knock noise (.4-.7* of knock retard). Still at pretty low timing and 12.0:1 AFR.

Should be on the dyno as soon as Aaron has a free evening.

I did what I would say is one of my favorite "mods" to the Talon this morning-installing stock OEM motor mounts:

It is amazing how much of a difference it made from the poly mounts. You can barely feel the usual dips and jerks as it is learning how to idle (AC on/off, etc.). The keys no longer shake and it is incredible how much quieter it is. I thought the interior noise was the exhaust reverberation/resonance, but it was actually the harmonics from the motor turning the inside of the car into a speaker box.

It's finally a pleasure to drive, I can't believe what a difference it made. Finally in true commuter-commando mode.

I left the poly inserts in the front roll stop to keep everything in place on launch and full line-pressure shifts.

 

[arrowhead]

Man keep up the good work, it has turn out very nice.

 

[gofer]

Great build and hopefully everything comes together and you get the dyno results you've been hoping for the last year, seems like its been a long road.

What rod/main/washers did you use when you built the bottom end? Did you use the main bearing cap alignment dowels with the ARP mains?

Just asking a few questions as I'm putting together a 2.3l '99 block and still getting the parts for it.

 

[VETDRMS]

Great build and hopefully everything comes together and you get the dyno results you've been hoping for the last year, seems like its been a long road.

What rod/main/washers did you use when you built the bottom end? Did you use the main bearing cap alignment dowels with the ARP mains?

Just asking a few questions as I'm putting together a 2.3l '99 block and still getting the parts for it.

Thanks, Corey. This time last year I had just started the bulk of the build and was imagining I would have it ready to run when the track opened in March.

Rod/Main bearings are the ACL "race" standard size. I have an extra set of ACL thrust washers here as I wasn't sure if the kit came with them. No aftermarket dowels were used. It was line-honed with the ARP studs installed to spec though. Crank end-play was 0.005-0.007" depending on pressure applied, I checked it at 5000 miles and it was the same.

This block was originally intended to be an aluminum-rod 2.4. This was the best block they had seen as far as core-shift goes and there was enough material to clearance it for the aluminum rods. It was supposed to go in an Evo and all the machine work was done before they realized it was a '99 block. Oops!

I'm not expecting anything spectacular from the dyno, being an auto, I'm just interested in finding MBT and getting out to the track. The original goal was to have a real street car I could commute in every day, with no driveability compromise, and run 11.50 at the track full weight. I should have it on the scale soon, but I'm guessing it's around 3600lbs with me in it power everything, AC, ABS, power seat, sunroof, full interior, etc. It also has a 40lb billet steel rear diff cover.

 

[VETDRMS]

After a way-to-long build process I finally got it on the dyno:

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/dyno-talk/419883-2-4-auto-s256-444-awhp-25psi.html

We made 4 pulls and called it done until the tracks open. Last pull made 444 awhp @ 25psi, which was more than I had expected and a good end to a long build.

Video:

 

[VETDRMS]

The weather cleared for a near-perfect 60F day so I headed out to the opening day at Woodburn Dragstrip.

I found a 3" slice in the inner sidewall on one of my tires while checking everything the night before so I took the 17" BBS wheels from Evo and put them on the Talon.

The goal was to make some shakedown passes at low boost and low timing on pump to see how it shifts, converter, etc. It's a 50 mile drive so I didn't want to break anything by getting greedy before going back to E85.

I also finally weighted the heavy pig: it came in at a svelte 3600lbs with driver and a half tank of gas!

First pass of the day was a 12.9 @ 110mph at 16psi and 9* of timing on a half tank of 92 and 2 gallons of VP110 (2.0s 60ft!). I had some persistent knock of about .4-1.1* through third gear so I took some timing out and richened it up a little.

The 60fts were terrible all day, it was lazy on spool and I was launching at 4000rpm with 12-15psi. Again, it was just to get some seat time and make sure everything was mechanically sound. I also have a pre-wastegate exhaust leak from the O2 housing (which is getting sent back to MAP this week).

Best pass of the day was a 12.701 @ 110mph with a blistering 1.9s 60ft (might as well be FWD with how soft its launching!). Average boost over the run is about 17psi, with 4* of timing for most of the run ramping up to 8-9*. It shifts out of first at 6500rpm and 7000rpm into 3rd and is trapping around 7100rpm (might need bigger tires when back on e85...).

Also, coolant temps were a little too high for pump, but I still have my winter 195F thermostat in so most passes started around 200F and ended around 206F, but were as high as 213F.

All-in-all I am more than happy with how it went, it was a fun stress-free, problem-free day on the track with my Talon, can't get much better than that.

The log is attached from the 12.7 run, check out that timing curve!

 

[VETDRMS]

Just a quick update. Shortly after switching back to E85 to get ready for some real track time and installing some new Continental Extreme Contact DWs, the transmission failed and took some teeth off the center diff and transfer gear. Perfect timing. After inspecting the transfer gear it looks like it all started when I got the transmission. The previous owner who first built it installed the transfer gear backwards and ran it for a short while that way. When I tore down the tranny I switched it and there was an audiable gear whine from the beginning on decel. I had intended to inspect the gear periodically but we all know how that goes sometimes. There is a small divet on each tooth where the wear pattern was messed up. The teeth that broke came apart along this divet. How do you say it, thanks?

Anyways, while it is down I am getting a new gear set that will be cryo treated for additional strength. As luck would have it I missed the last set of new factory gears available by a few days. Thankfully, Mark at Metro found me a good set of used gears that don't have any weird wear patterns. The case took some damage but no cracks, so it should be ok, but we'll see when it gets torn down. I am trying to source a spare core as well, but the auto band wagon is going full steam so it's a search for hens teeth.

So, while it is down I've decided to finish a few things I was putting off as I enjoyed having it running too much. I finally got a fabricated coolant overflow tank from Brian Erb to fit with the VRSF FMIC and the fitment is perfect with the 4" intake and K&N filter. Finally I don't have to look at that ugly yellowed bottle crammed between the intake and the UICP. Pics:

Next up I am replacing the compression arms with ones from some knuckle kits I bought a few months ago, getting a JMF small battery tray and a few other little things I will post back here. I am also sick of lifter bleed down clatter on start so I might try a set of the GSC zero tick lifters. I have a couple leaky Engnbldr ones that need to go.

While it is sad to see it back on jackstands the Evo is keeping me smiling 24/7.

 

[boostwhipped24]

I like your build man looks pretty sexy. Check out my build were running kinda similar setups. My car should be back on the road in a couple week, but ill be using a s362 with a SBR 2.1 destroker. Im hoping im happy with the way it turns out.

 

[VETDRMS]

Ok, a bit of a combo-update here: incoming wall-o-text..

I picked up the transmission from Mark @ Metro last week. It turns out I also killed a planet gear. The case was a little beat up, but free of cracks, and everything else looked good. Clutch wear was fine, with the exception of the direct clutch (Alto 5-disc reds), which took a few bad flares before full line pressure at moderate loads was enabled. We replaced them with Kiggly's 5-disc setup, which Mark prefers to the Alto frictions. A good set of main gears was found and sent off to be cryo-treated, but I will try to resist standing on the brakes at 4600rpm and 20+psi to help them live longer.

While it was down I wanted to take care of a few little things I didn't get finished once it was running. First was the coolant overflow posted above, the other was a proper small battery tray (my angle iron tray worked but wasn't 100% secure). I also replaced the compression arms and end-links.

I have had company the past week so I have been working on it early mornings or during afternoons between activities.

Everything went back together relatively smooth. I was not looking forward to the torque converter bolts as it can be a pain with the setup I am running. They are a larger-than-stock bolts with very high torque on stacked plates. They seem to be one-time use before the heads get damaged. Aaron @ English Racing came through last minute Friday when I had two heads damaged attempting to re-use them (I do a lot of cheerleading for these guys when I get the chance-it's 100% deserved). It is also not a one-person job trying to hold the converter still (my wife got under the car and did a great job keeping it locked in place while I torqued them-keeper). Other than that it was all pretty straight forward; I am methodical and slow.

I am always happy to crawl under the Talon to see how clean it is (desert cars are great). The ball joints all popped free easily, the end-links were cake to take off...I wish the Evo looked this good! I did replace the lateral control arm bolts seeing how I have probably removed and re-torqued them over a dozen times.

Once the transmission was back in and most everything was hooked up it was time to install the JMF battery tray. Unfortunately, it looks like they didn't test-fit these with the auto mounts as the front of the tray hit the transmission mount. I moved the mounting holes about 3/8" forward on the plate to move it back. Without moving it, it would have gotten hammered by the mount.

Here is the final clearance:

The JMF tray sits the battery about 2" further out than my prior setup, which left no room for my oil breather can (always something). I moved the breather can down and over where it mounts on the battery tray, but I still need to make a small bracket to bolt it in place. It looks cleaner but is harder to service.

It's all nicely tucked down there with the intake piping back in place.

Next up was mounting the coolant overflow tank by Brian Erb. The fitment was great, I only had to move the air filter a little further back towards the firewall. I routed the overflow hose down and over toward the middle of the car under the radiator so, if I have an issue that causes me to shoot coolant, it's not all over the front right tire (which would suck during a pull).

It's all a little dirty but it will be getting cleaned up and detailed once I get some miles on it to check for leaks, but I am much happier with this setup than before when I just crammed the stock coolant overflow tank into an open space.

The only thing I'm concerned with is how flimsy the JMF battery tray feels: it flexes pretty easily. An under-brace similar to the stock setup would probably be a good idea. Does anyone have any long-term experience with these?

The car fired right up after sitting for 6 weeks, with no odd noises. Ran it through the gears on the jack stands and everything seemed to engage correctly. No leaks so far. I took it for a quick drive around the block and it feels great. Now I just need to take it in to check the alignment and it should be good to go! I feel incomplete when she's not running...ha!

Once I run this mixed tank of E85 through it, I will install the Aeromotive 340 pump, put a new filter in, and hit the track! Stay tuned...

 

[VETDRMS]

I seem to have the worst luck with this thing. I had an appointment to get it aligned yesterday but when I got home to take it in I noticed a puddle of ATF on the floor...great! I had to cancel the appointment until I could fix the leak.

I got it up in the air and the entire side had oil over it (including the side cover). It went as high as the end-clutch cover so I suspected it was leaking (although the seal is an o-ring, so unless pinched it was unlikely that the o-ring was the problem). My fear was that we missed a crack in the case and it was seeping from there. On first startup/drive I didn't notice any leaks so I wasn't exactly looking forward to finding the cause.

I cleaned everything up and ran it in the air for 15-20 minutes looking for any sign of leaks. Nothing, it was bone dry. After that I took it out for a quick spin and came back to the garage and it was leaking like a sieve, wtf! I got it back up on jack stands and ran it in the air this time in drive to try to find where it was coming from. The case was wet all the way to the top of the end-clutch cover but it was dry around the upper pulse generator so it wasn't that. There really isn't anything else up there that would leak.

I then pulled the end-clutch cover to inspect the o-ring. The o-ring wasn't pinched at all, but looked funny. I had some leftover parts from a few rebuild kits so I dug through them but couldn't find any end-clutch covers. Thankfully, I keep a box full of old seals and found a good one in there. Right away it was obvious the o-ring in the cover was smaller, not only that it was an inconsistent diameter. I measured the old one and it was 3.0mm, while the new one was 2.5mm! With it installed in the case there was a noticeable gap in the groove and it barely protruded. It is a formed o-ring with an eyelet so it wasn't that the wrong o-ring was installed, it was just manufactured wrong.

With the new (old) o-ring in place it doesn't leak a drop and it's off to get an alignment today. I'm finally giving up on my Firestone lifetime alignment because in the last 3 times they haven't gotten the steering wheel straight once. At least it was an "easy" fix and not a bad case. Once that's done it will get a 20psi (400whp) e85 tune for my wife (she's looking forward to having it back) and I'll work on the higher-boost setup and wait for good weather for the track.

 

[VETDRMS]

Wall of Text Update:

And the build continues...

Fuel Pressure Issues:

Shortly after the switch back to E85 I was noticing some intermittent/random lean spikes during pulls, with the lean condition trending up at higher rpms. I tried swapping the Aeromotive pump out for the Walbro with no changes. I moved my AEM oil pressure sender over to the regulator and logged some wild swings in fuel pressure where the lean condition was occurring. I pulled the regulator (Aeromotive Compact 13105) and tore it down to find that the internal spring was rubbing on the vacuum/boost port and the inside of the housing and had hammered the ball seat over to the side and was no longer sealing. I picked up a new regulator (another Aeromotive 13105) and noticed the vacuum/boost nipple was not tapped nearly as far into the housing. The new regulator fixed the lean issue and it now holds pressure when shut off. I am ordering another AEM sender so I can switch between logging oil/fuel pressure.

Front Suspension/Brakes Rebuild:

I have been chasing a clunk for a while and found it didn't occur when the brakes were applied so I thought it might be caliper related. Turned out some moisture got into the pins and corroded them pretty bad. The calipers weren't sticking but there was slack in the pin/bushing interface that would clunk on bumps. Easy fix, right? Nope. Turns out I have strange hubs and could not find any replacement rotors (I was sick of looking at the rusty rotors, which were also warped). See here for more info: http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/handling-tech/439267-rotor-hub-diameter-hub-diameter.html

Long story short I replaced: (1) front hubs, (2) front knuckles, (3) front lateral control arms, (4) front compression arms, (5) tie-rod ends (Moog), (6) rotors, and (7) pads. At least some maintenance is done. The knuckle kits I had lying around really came in handy (and really helped convince my wife all those OE parts I have stockpiled are actually useful!).

The lateral control arms in the knuckle kit don't have the caster offset like the original '97 arms, which was verified by even caster in the subsequent alignment. I have a camber offset side-to-side that I would like to correct, however. I am considering ordering the SPC adjustable upper ball joints.

FP Manifold Blanket:

Next up was installing the FP manifold blanket made by Levi @ Turbo Performance Products: DSM FP Manifold Blanket Turbo Performance Products Mitsubishi Plymouth Eagle

The fitment is pretty good; I first installed it with the included straps. In my opinion the straps are ugly and a pain to work with. Especially for later if you are doing other things in the area and forget to fold back the cut sections. However, they did help me leave some blood on the intake pipe as an offering, so I expect no problems from it for a while.

I think the cleanest install is with bolts. Flathead Allen bolts (M10x1.5x60) work well and look slick. I used GripCo nuts so they won't rattle loose. I wasn't sure if ESNA nuts could take the heat. The length was just about right to where the nut was fully threaded. The head of the bolt and nut are 20mm and the eyelets are 12mm so there is plenty of surface area.

I did run a strap around the flange area to pull the blanket in at the front. A little more material to run down the front of the turbine housing/flange would be a nice addition. The only other issue that I see is that, at least in my case, it sits against the dipstick. The best way to get a blanket to go up in flames is to saturate it in oil. I will just be mindful when checking the oil, which, if I did at a frequency of 50/day I might accumulate enough in the blanket to cause a problem. The blanket could be a lifesaver if you end up blowing oil out the dipstick due to some other failure.

Things on Order:

There are a couple cold-clacking lifters that have been bugging me since the motor was new that I am finally replacing. I believe there are a few lifters with bad seals that bleed down overnight and will clack on cold starts for a while. Once it's warmed up it goes away but it sounds bad and is probably wearing something faster than it should be. I pulled the valve cover when warm and everything looks good, none of the lifters looked collapsed.

I ordered a set of the GSC zero-tick lifters last week as well as a Kiggly HLA. I've noticed some drop-off in oil pressure at higher RPMs during pulls and figured while I was in there I should probably install Kiggly's HLA. I ordered the OTC tool off eBay so I don't have to pull the cams but I am concerned about marring/damaging the Ti retainers.

Best Mod Ever: (Auto ALS + Fan Control):
Over the weekend I wired in a couple new controls and dewired some old stuff. I finally uninstalled the Devil's Own Water/Meth injection kit (for sale?) and wired in the brake-activated ALS in ECMLink and a fan control switch for staging.

With the current combo I really don't have any problem getting up on the converter but it can be hard to pull back as it goes over 4000rpm and/or 18-20psi. Lucas English posted up some info about wiring the brake switch up to the ECU clutch input to activate ALS for launching auto cars last year on the ECMLink forums. The install was pretty straight forward using the 12v line off the brake switch to activate a relay that grounds Pin 91 of the ECU. Controls are set up in the ALS tab in ECMLink to activate above 85% TPS and speed =<0mph. The key is to get it into boost and then stab the throttle, which will kill torque and make it easier to hold and build boost fast and bring all the timing/power back in the second you let off the brake.

Verdict: Awesome! Due to the lockup clutch and not getting to take advantage of flashing the converter off the line (launching near the mechanical stall of ~4500rpm) the launches were always somewhat soft initially out of the hole and would hang a bit on the converter clutches. With the ALS I can get it up to about 3500rpm, stab the throttle, ALS comes on and drops about 500rpms and you hear a whoosh as boost builds up to ~23psi at 3500! rpm, let off the brake and boom, the converter flashes to 4500rpm and it launches like a rocket! On some other testing I was seeing over 20psi at 3200rpm! The BCS is set to keep boost around 23psi so I could probably go higher on launch boost but traction is now an issue.

The Koni/GC/RRE setup plants the car HARD and I couldn't be happier with how it is launching.

The other mod was to wire a switch to ground Pin 20 of the ECU to activate the fans for staging-lane or pit cooling and also works great to keep temps down while making pulls and not have to deal with the timing retard due to a high coolant offset.

So, I am slowly wrapping up all the little things and enjoying working on the car and spending time in the garage. I still need to pick up a new helmet as my old one expired this year and then it's off to the track to see what she'll do. Fuel pressure is falling off at higher RPMs with boost around 23psi so I will be looking into some additional fuel equipment.

 

[boostwhipped24]

glad to see its running good. Im just waiting on my speed density from ecmlink to arrive, should be here thursday and I finally get to start mine for the first time since jan 2011

 

[VETDRMS]

This build has been one tragic wall of text after another, but here's another go at it.

Disaster Averted, but means More Downtime!

Back around July 4th I was getting ready for a fun weekend at the track and wanted to fix what I thought was a lifter that was bleeding down and clacking when cold. I ordered some GSC zero tick lifters and a Kiggly HLA and was going to install them and head to the track (finally!).

I pulled some rockers and instantly noticed an issue on the exhaust side. The retainers were beat up pretty bad:

After getting the rest of the rocker arms off, several of the valve tips were also damaged. Obviously this meant pulling the head—great. I tore it down as fast as possible to get the parts off to the machine shop in a futile effort to get it back on the road as soon as possible.

None of the intake retainers were beat up, but all of the exhaust retainers were hammered. Initially, the machinist thought the keepers might have pulled through. I measured the valve tip to retainer clearance at 0.080-0.090" on the exhaust and about 0.100" on the intake. Unfortunately, the Evo rocker arm pad to shoulder depth is 0.090-0.100"—the exhaust rocker arm shoulders were resting on the retainers. Obviously this is bad and would explain the hammered valve tips.

A typical valve action in this configuration would leave some lash (assuming the lash adjuster could not break the spring/keeper pressure), as the valve opened the keeper would be unlocked from the retainer slightly before the rocker pad contacts the valve tip. Therefore, during the entire valve action the keepers would be loose. On valve close the valve would contact the seat before retainer/keeper seated, shortly after the keepers would slam into the retainer to complete the cycle. I'm just thankful it didn't drop a valve as the valve dynamics under this cycle have to be awful.

The head sat at the shop for a few days with no new info so I picked it up hauled it over to the ER shop to tear it down. Once apart, I started measuring and all the valves were about ~0.040" shorter than stock length, that's a lot of tipping! The installed height was close to spec, which means they were deep in the seats.

I initially contacted Greg @ GSC and he was very responsive/helpful in trying to diagnose and correct the issue. Apparently I had an early revision of the retainers that were a little taller, but they still should not have contacted the rocker arm shoulder unless an excessive amount of material was taken off the valves.

Mistakes happen, I understand that, but I am seriously burnt on pulling the head on this thing! At least the head gasket looked great and there were finally no signs of leaking, but unfortunately, pulling the head meant replacing a fresh $185 head gasket too.

After testing some of GSC's standard valves in the head, it was obvious I would need to go to an oversized valve to get it to sit lower in the seat for minimal tipping. Unfortunately, Greg didn't have any of the oversized valves, nor did any of his distributors! So, the waiting game began: somewhere out there in a container was my fix...(anyone remember the song from Fievel Goes West?)

The bill of parts from GSC included: revised retainers, keepers, oversized valves, and seals. I also needed a new set of Evo rocker arms as the pads were damaged.

The machine shop stepped up and fixed the head no charge (excluding parts, of course), and turned it around in a few days. The machinist is a good guy and I enjoy chatting with him, I do not think this experience reflects poorly on the shop that did the work. I could say "that's racing" if I ever got to race, I guess "that's bench racing" will have to do.

The new valves did not require tipping at all to be at the correct installed height. Greg mentioned that they actually make them slightly shorter and use an offset keeper groove to minimize tipping—it looks like it works. The new valve tip to retainer clearance is 0.150"—tons of room.

All ready to go in:

Other Fun

In true DSM fashion the downtime gave me a chance to tackle a few other things that needed finishing.

Injectors
I first sent the injectors off to FIC to be cleaned, as when it was tore down I was on a fresh tank of E85. They went from the rail directly to a sealed bag and were sent to FIC the following week. Mike @ FIC was nice enough to call and let me know that they didn't actually need cleaning, but they were already there and it was cheap to just clean them. They were within 1% when they got them, but after cleaning were within the normal spec of 0.5%.

Brake Line
My AFPR placement when the build was first completed put the fuel pressure gauge resting on the primary brake line from the master cylinder. I didn't catch it until it wore into the brake line. It wasn't enough to leak or deform, but I didn't want to wait until that first panic stop for it to fail. I ordered a new master-to-ABS primary line from Mitsubishi and waited. It came in and looked to be correct. This was the only time I could do this as it looks like replacing this line with the head on would be nearly impossible.

Unfortunately, I think I ordered a later revision of the line that uses a bubble flare. Les Schwab butchered it trying to put a double flare end on, but thankfully Aaron @ ER let me pull one off his parts car. Some info is in a thread I posted here:

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/handling-tech/443721-help-new-oe-brake-line-install.html

Cam Covers, Water Pump, and Water Pipe
I had some AC belt issues that marked up the lower timing belt cover and wore a hole into the oil pump bolt protrusion. Also, the standard 4G63 middle cover is too short for the tall deck 4G64 so there was an air gap between the middle and lower covers when everything was assembled. The solution is to use a middle cover from the DOHC 2.4 Galant: part number MD191813. Fitment is the same except the lower front bolt is in a different location from the 4G63 cover, so you also need the bracket from the cylinder head: part number MD187284.

I developed a slight leak on occasion at the water pump outlet before teardown. On the 2.4 the stock water pipe needs to be angled up to account for the taller deck height. I spent some time in ASA and found a different water pipe for the DOHC 2.4 Galant: part number MD189194. This has the extra 6mm of height at the thermostat end so no clearance is needed on the bracket. It also is missing the turbo/oil filter housing water lines, perfect!

Fitment was perfect, with the added benefit of additional compressor housing clearance! I had to dent the standard 4G63 pipe to clear the cover, now I have ~1/8" of clearance. Each end sits deep in the pump/housing so I am sure the leaking is over.

On teardown I noticed the GMB pump was weaping, which left some surface rust on the tensioner and tension arm. I ordered a new Mitsubishi pump kit with the timing belt covers to replace the GMB.

New Shoes!

I have been stalking Craigslist for a while for a spare set of the Evo BBS SE wheels for the Evo and I wanted to get a set for the Talon too. I came across a gem: factory fresh BBS MR wheels pulled from a new Evo after a few thousand initial miles and stored in a garage since. They were 280 miles away and the price was right so I made a day trip up to Lake Stevens, WA to pick them up. They even had the original Advans with about 70% tread left (never dismounted).

There are one or two small chips but are as close to new as you can get. The center caps are pristine with none of the usual light scratches from washing/scrubbing. I thought I wanted the SE rims for the Talon but the grey looks way better than I thought and I love them.

Here is a thread with some pics:

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/handling-tech/445282-evo-bbs-photos-mr-se.html

It can never just "work"

Fel-Pro tried to doom another build with a metal "fang" lodged between the layers. Thankfully, I caught it. I had set the head on and was installing the studs when I noticed one "squished"—I had missed a stud pilot hole when cleaning and there was oil/coolant still in there. I pulled the head off to clean it out and when I lifted the gasket this popped out from between the layers and fell into cylinder 1:

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/cyl...elpro-permatorque-users-watch-out-scraps.html

The car fired right up with zero issues and not a drop of leakage in sight (I might have the only zero-leak DSM out there, at least externally). It took me practically forever to put it back together (2 weeks) as I was really sick of working on it. I took my time and brain-f***ed every step along the way as usual, but at least I can sleep at night knowing the timing cover bolt torque is to spec (96 inch pounds, for what it's worth). Setting the tensioner to exactly 0.160" protrusion can be a tedious exercise, by the way.

After a warming it up to operating temp and letting the fans cycle for a while I shut it down for the night and retorqued the head studs in the morning. They all took a consistent angle on the retorque (less than a few degrees) so that is good. The initial torque sequence was linear as well.

All was good in DSM land, it was time to embark on a journey to enjoy the fruit of my labors. I loaded up the dog and we headed out to Petsmart. It ran/drove perfect, was smooth and sounded great. Too good to be true, of course. When we went leave it took forever to start. After maybe 20 seconds of cranking it fired up and sputtered for a bit before clearing up, then it ran fine.

I noticed the fuel pressure was bleeding down much faster than usual when turned off. I suspected a leaking injector (imagine that, leaking fresh from FIC...) so I pulled the rail and there was the start of some odd buildup on the #3 and #4 injectors. I tossed some stock injectors in and measured the time it took for pressure to bleed off: 45 minutes. I then put one 2150 injector in at a time at the #3 cylinder and measured the time. One took 25 minutes, two took 10 minutes, and one took 8 minutes to bleed down. The 8 minute injector's nozzle had fluid in it when I pulled it. By this time my battery had 9 volts and wouldn't turn on the pump. I did re-test the stock injectors and it was in the same 10 minute range on leak down.

I soaked them all in gasoline for a while and the buildup dissolved. I put it back together and cold starts are perfect but it will still take a little while to start after sitting hot, probably around 10 seconds of cranking is normal.

I will be sending the injectors back to FIC again as they have offered to test them (again). More down time ahead! This is what the #3 injector (the one that had fluid in the nozzle when pressure tested) looked like after 40 miles:

 

[VETDRMS]

The injectors went back to FIC and sure enough #4 was leaking. How it left there the first time "leak tested - good" I'm not sure.

Anyways, FIC replaced the bad injector and covered return shipping. Customer service has always been great, but parts failures are getting old.

Trims are perfect, Lo: -0.6% Mid: 0.4% and everything checks out. Pressure at the rail bleeds down much slower now and takes over an hour to bleed down to single digits. Hot starts take only a few cranks and cold starts are good too. IFO is this weekend but the wife torpedoed that idea instantly...

 

[IrishBeatdown]

Holy hell this build is cursed. Way to stick with it though, im pretty sure if it was my car it would just sit for periods of time in between because of the frustration. It just seems ridiculous because you seem like you have more attention to detail than so many of the other people on here, (myself included) yet you've run into so many issues. I'm sure with that kind of dedication this ride is going to shape up in no time, however.

 

[VETDRMS]

Holy hell this build is cursed. Way to stick with it though, im pretty sure if it was my car it would just sit for periods of time in between because of the frustration. It just seems ridiculous because you seem like you have more attention to detail than so many of the other people on here, (myself included) yet you've run into so many issues. I'm sure with that kind of dedication this ride is going to shape up in no time, however.

Haha, yeah it's been a journey.

Thanks for the encouragement though. This is a DSM, so I wasn't expecting a trouble free build.

I think a lot of what you see posted has a very positive bias. We all put a lot of ourselves into these things and dealing with failure (let alone publicizing it) is hard. I try to be meticulous, which is one of the reasons I think of myself as the world's slowest mechanic. Overall this approach has worked very well. Not one of these major failures was the result of my work, which is a relief.

On the other hand, there have been expensive "mistakes" made by very experienced and knowledgeable people, and this has been frustrating as it seems each mistake has cost a couple grand and took a lot of time to remedy. Overall these mistakes have been addressed professionally and I have enjoyed working with these people. I haven't once demanded anything and accept some share of costs to remedy as part of the game.

Parts failures are another issue, but so far there has been very few problems caused by part quality issues.

This is a hobby first that motivates me to work hard during the day and helps me relax after a stressful day/week at work.

I actually drive this thing, a lot! Despite all the downtime I've put 10,000+ miles on this combo in the last year and it did daily driving commute duty into a major city downtown for months in the fall/winter on E85 and performed flawlessly. I was burning 100-130 gallons of E85 a month!

I check things often and pay attention. If I hadn't, these things I caught would have left to catastrophic failures.

The combo has made great power and is a blast to drive. My wife uses this car for her errands. I am pretty sick of working on it, which is the main thing discouraging me from doing any racing as I need to enjoy it for a while.

As always, I'll chronicle whatever happens here. I have some new things I want to try out, but it looks like any regular track time will have to wait until spring.

I love this car, I love this hobby.