mixing E85 and 93

[dan2288]

Right now I have a keydiver stage 3 chip made for 93. Would I be ok mixing in some e85 still running that chip? What ratio should I go for and would it even help?

 

[rEclipserGST]

Right now I have a keydiver stage 3 chip made for 93. Would I be ok mixing in some e85 still running that chip? What ratio should I go for and would it even help?

This is not reccomending unless you have some of the supporting mods (ie Wideband, Datalogger, DSMlink, injectors, fuel pump, AFPR)

BUT if your going to do it anyway, I would suggest do something close to a 80/20 (93-e85) mix. Just work your way up. 70/30. But i really wouldnt go further than that. Alot of people arent going to reccomend mixing at all. Race gas or Full e85 with supporting mods

 

[dan2288]

well I have 880's, 255 and fpr so im good for the fuel. I running a 16g now and want to run high boost, like 25+. So mixing 2 gal e85 to 8 gal 93 should be ok? Will it help alot with knock?

 

[snowborder714]

The other reason not to mix E85 with other octanes is that you typically don't know the exact octane rating of E85 since it changes so often (especially with the seasons). I would pick one or the other and stick with it. Now, if you wanted to splash in some race gas with the 93, that would be better than mixing in E85.

 

[delta448]

Chemistry says no.

Stoic ratio for gasoline = 14.7:1
Stoic ratio for ethanol = 9:1
Stoic ratio for E85 = 9.8:1

This means you will run lean if you run E85 on a gasoline tune. Change the chip programming or buy another one to swap to when you want to run E85, they're only like $20 from keydiver. Less than that if you have an emulator and buy blank chips to tune yourself.

 

[dan2288]

Well I cant run on straight e85 because the station is too far away to rely on it. I was just hoping to add 2 gal to every fill up so that it would last awile and so that I wouldnt have to drive up there so much.

 

[lazyazzdaddy]

I don't want to jack this post but I've just started reading up on e85. would there be any advantages to using a blend for someone like myself who has dsmlink and supporting mods?

 

[jrohner]

Chemistry says no.

Stoic ratio for gasoline = 14.7:1
Stoic ratio for ethanol = 9.79:1

This means you will run lean if you run E85 on a gasoline tune. Change the chip programming or buy another one to swap to when you want to run E85, they're only like $20 from keydiver. Less than that if you have an emulator and buy blank chips to tune yourself.

Fuel trims pretty much take care of it (when just mixing a couple gallons, that is), plus if it does lean out WOT a bit, that's good since pump gas needs to be overly rich to control knock and E85 doesn't.

I ran 2-3 gallons of E85 per tank back before I tuned for E85, and it worked great; I've also done it on a few other cars. It definitely helps to get rid of knock.

Do before & after logs to make sure on what it's doing though; and drive it for a few minutes first to give the fuel trims time to change.

 

[rEclipserGST]

Fuel trims pretty much take care of it (when just mixing a couple gallons, that is), plus if it does lean out WOT a bit, that's good since pump gas needs to be overly rich to control knock and E85 doesn't.

I ran 2-3 gallons of E85 per tank back before I tuned for E85, and it worked great; I've also done it on a few other cars. It definitely helps to get rid of knock.

Do before & after logs to make sure on what it's doing though; and drive it for a few minutes first to give the fuel trims time to change.

I've also done this. The octane rating of e85 is around 100-110 i thought (atleast thats what it says on the pump at Krogers )

So since you have the reporting mods, go ahead & log some stuff and run it. Then just add a bit more. Noone ever acheived a break through without going out on a limb & thinking outside the box. Goals are always accompanied by risk. Good luck.

 

[JayRolla]

If you have a wbo2 and can adjust for the change in AFR, I would just jump in and fill the tank up. Those 880's will be maxed if you get that turbo flowing 40lb/min though.

 

[lazyazzdaddy]

If you have a wbo2 and can adjust for the change in AFR, I would just jump in and fill the tank up. Those 880's will be maxed if you get that turbo flowing 40lb/min though.

thanks, thats what i was thinking about those injectors too! seeing as i'm pushing upwards of 45-50lbs a min. i guess one question i have though is would it be wiser to switch injectors out with 1600 and change fully over to e85 or stick with 93 pump water/meth injection? or even can e85 and meth be used together?

 

[JayRolla]

E85 straight with some 1600's and a bosch fuel pump would be the best bet. You dont have to fill the meth and its like always having race gas in the tank. If you run meth with e85 it will just give you injector room since when your spraying meth you dont need as much fuel.

 

[lazyazzdaddy]

E85 straight with some 1600's and a bosch fuel pump would be the best bet. You dont have to fill the meth and its like always having race gas in the tank. If you run meth with e85 it will just give you injector room since when your spraying meth you dont need as much fuel.

I think i might just have to try this out. question though, i realize you use more fuel but how much more? would i average out to maybe double the amount of unleaded? im just thinking from a cost per gallon stand point.
lastly what would the target a/f ratio be? i think i read somewhere that it is not the same as with 93 unleaded.

 

[lazyazzdaddy]

Chemistry says no.

Stoic ratio for gasoline = 14.7:1
Stoic ratio for ethanol = 9.79:1

This means you will run lean if you run E85 on a gasoline tune. Change the chip programming or buy another one to swap to when you want to run E85, they're only like $20 from keydiver. Less than that if you have an emulator and buy blank chips to tune yourself.

guess thats where i read it

 

[delta448]

The lambda measurement is still the same, so if your wideband is set up for gasoline, most will read what that same lambda is in gasoline's AFRs.

And E85 is not straight ethanol. There's also like 3 different concentrations of ethanol for "E85"...

Use the lambda measurements on your wideband and you can't go wrong, no matter what concentration you have it will tell you how rich or lean you are.

 

[snowborder714]

I believe E85 requires about 30-33% more fuel than 93 would.

 

[diambo4life]

Running blends kinda sucks because you don't exactly know the proportion of E85 to the 93 so it will force you to watch your lambda like a hawk. It will drastically improve the anti-knock characteristics but make sure you have enough fuel to support your airflow. Try 50:50 mix and see how you like it. Of course my own recommendation is to go all E85 or stay home.

 

[lazyazzdaddy]

I believe E85 requires about 30-33% more fuel than 93 would.

thank you! I don't know about for you guys elsewhere but that sounds pretty good from my stand point seeing as gas is back over $3 a gl. for 93 here. and e85 is a 1.99 seems like it would even it self out.

 

[snowborder714]

Even if it was a bit more, running straight E85 will allow you to tune much more aggressively than 93, which would be enough for me to run it! If only it was more abundant around me, I'd be running it.

 

[JayRolla]

I think i might just have to try this out. question though, i realize you use more fuel but how much more? would i average out to maybe double the amount of unleaded? im just thinking from a cost per gallon stand point.
lastly what would the target a/f ratio be? i think i read somewhere that it is not the same as with 93 unleaded.

Yes you do use more fuel. I would say more around 20-30%. Most people get about 180-220 miles per tank on e85. I get 200 miles a tank on e85. Its been so long I dont remember what I did on gas but I think it was 280-300 miles.

Lastly like stated your wbo2 should be setup for gas. So when it reads 14.7:1 on your wbo2 its actually at 9.79:1 which is good. I shoot for 11.1-11.5 afr on e85. Others shoot for 11.5-12.2 but I like to be on safe side of things.

Ohh and e85 is a slower burning fuel so it loves timing. I was able to run 18psi at most and 22* timing and had all kinds of knock on my pump gas tune. I didnt have timing control then. I then decided to run e85 so the timing didnt matter. I now run 32psi spike at 24* timing with minimal knock. For some reason my knock happy 6 bolts still knocks on e85. My brother has the same setup as me and he has ran as much as 28* timing for testing purposes with zero knock.

 

[lazyazzdaddy]

Even if it was a bit more, running straight E85 will allow you to tune much more aggressively than 93, which would be enough for me to run it!

I have to agree! I was going to jump on that jmf group buy going on now but this seem like a better investment at the moment.. now i wish i had read up more befor buying my meth kit. i'f i had, i could have used that money to do both!

 

[lazyazzdaddy]

[/QUOTE] Ohh and e85 is a slower burning fuel so it loves timing. I was able to run 18psi at most and 22* timing and had all kinds of knock on my pump gas tune. I didnt have timing control then. I then decided to run e85 so the timing didnt matter. I now run 32psi spike at 24* timing with minimal knock. For some reason my knock happy 6 bolts still knocks on e85. My brother has the same setup as me and he has ran as much as 28* timing for testing purposes with zero knock.[/QUOTE]

wow thats pretty impressive i cant even come close to that timing with meth!

someone posted earlier that i should get a bosch fuel pump. are we talking about an external pump? I've got a wb255 which i guess is not enough to push my 45lbs/m airflows ? if so what size pump should i look into? i'm not currently planning any future turbo grades. but if i ever do i wouldn't go over a gt35r so... what pump/flow ratting would be enough to handle that, just so i can buy once and forget about it.

Ok, well you guys have convinced me to switch over .so now off to the classifieds to sell my new pte 880's and meth kit.

 

[jrohner]

When I tune for E85, I just take the real injector size and divide it by 1.4, which gets the trims real close (and the fuel maps match the real AFR reasonably well). I run an LC1 wideband to my ECU, so I can lean out the closed loop. Doing this I haven't noticed much difference in fuel mileage vs back when I was running gas. My average is between 0-2 MPG difference from gas. The worst I've ever gotten is the same as the worst on gas, and the best I've gotten on E85 is 23, and the best on gas was 25.x. When I was running gas, I was running the stock o2 and an SAFC2 for tuning. Last year I was usually running 11.5:1 AFR (E85) closed loop, which is equivalent to a gas AFR of about 17.25. You have to watch your WOT when leaning out the closed loop though, because the high fuel trim is used when WOT (I don't think most people realize that). For reference, 1 full point leaner in closed loop also leaned my open loop WOT about a full point. I modified the fuel map definition in Tunerpro to what I was actually running closed loop and my map matched up very well to my real AFR's.

 

[JayRolla]

Ohh and e85 is a slower burning fuel so it loves timing. I was able to run 18psi at most and 22* timing and had all kinds of knock on my pump gas tune. I didnt have timing control then. I then decided to run e85 so the timing didnt matter. I now run 32psi spike at 24* timing with minimal knock. For some reason my knock happy 6 bolts still knocks on e85. My brother has the same setup as me and he has ran as much as 28* timing for testing purposes with zero knock.[/QUOTE]

wow thats pretty impressive i cant even come close to that timing with meth!

someone posted earlier that i should get a bosch fuel pump. are we talking about an external pump? I've got a wb255 which i guess is not enough to push my 45lbs/m airflows ? if so what size pump should i look into? i'm not currently planning any future turbo grades. but if i ever do i wouldn't go over a gt35r so... what pump/flow ratting would be enough to handle that, just so i can buy once and forget about it.

Ok, well you guys have convinced me to switch over .so now off to the classifieds to sell my new pte 880's and meth kit.[/QUOTE]

That fuel pump may be ok at just 45lb/min. If you have to later, you can buy the bosch and run it with the walbro.

 

[2gGSX]

Chemistry says no.

Stoic ratio for gasoline = 14.7:1
Stoic ratio for ethanol = 9.79:1

For future reference, the stoich ratio for ethanol is 9:1. You may think it's a nominal difference, but you need the right numbers for any sort of calculations.