Melted Wiring--Suggestions?

[eclipsers-t]

I relocated my battery to the trunk about a year and a half ago. This morning when I went to work the car was working fine. I went to get in the car this morning to go out to lunch and there seemed to be a slight fog in the car with a bad smell. I tried to crank the car and nothing, no clips, beeps, or buzzes. So natural reaction was to check the battery. I opened the battery box and the positive battery cable was melted about 6 inches down and the wire was still hot (popping and shooting sparks if it was slightly moved.) I pulled the ground off the battery and left it off.

So I went out to the car to see what was going on after work and I looked under the hood. When I relocated the battery I used a power distribution block typically used for car audio equipment. A terminal on that was melted as well as the wiring connected to the starter.

Does anyone know what causes something like this to happen?

Any suggestions on correcting the problem?

Any suggestions or help is greatly appreciated!

 

[Dragon TalonTsi]

You either have too much amperage flowing through a circuit, or you have parasitic draw (something that is on when it shouldn't be). I would check the wiring to your starter, its the only circuit on a car without a protection device (fuse, fusible link, circuit breaker, etc.) Voltage won't burn a circuit, nor will resistance, only amperage. That's why its "piping hot" in your words. What is that little junction box with those buss fuses? For your radio I presume, I would check that first. The length of wire will not have anything to do with how much amperage will flow, only the thickness of the gage will (4 gauge flows more than 10 gauge etc.) Check your fuses too...

Rereading your post, it seems your starter solenoid took a dump, or even your starter. Its hard to tell with just the description you gave. Be a little more specific, i.e. does it start, does it run then burn and smell...

 

[eclipsers-t]

You can see on the power distribution block the terminal on the left is melted and is now facing to the right. Also, you can see how the battery terminal melted completely. The other picture is the wire going to the starter. It is kind of difficult to see, but the wire was melted.

I hooked the battery terminal back up thinking that I might be able to drive it home. As soon as I got a new terminal on the positive cable and I hooked the negative back to the battery it begin to melt and burned up the new terminal. The whole wire all the way to the starter was extremely hot.

It does not do anything. You can put the key in and nothing happens. No lights, noises, or anything. Absolutely nothing happens.

 

[RSTeclipse97]

make sure there is no bare wire touching anything. If some of the sheilding rubed off and is grounding against the car that will cause it to melt and do exactly what you are saying

 

[Dragon TalonTsi]

Yeah, to me it sounds like you have a contact that is never opening the circuit, allowing total amperage to flow with no control. It maybe even a short to power, which could allow that to be on at all times regardless of your controls. I would of course get new hardware and parts, but until you can really get into this and figure it out, it's gonna be tough cause electricity is the invisible demon most people don't understand. I'll try and help. I am ASE certifed in ES, EP, ABS, and SS. Going for my HVAC and ER in the fall. I am not trying to gloat, but if it makes you feelany better, knowng that someone actually knows what they are talking about. This is no internet bs here, only actual facts.

make sure there is no bare wire touching anything. If some of the sheilding rubed off and is grounding against the car that will cause it to melt and do exactly what you are saying

No it won't. Unless its a positive side controlled circuit then yes, but the starting circuit isn't, its ground side controlled. The most that could happen with this type of circuit is what he is saying, nothing happens, which makes me believe its a short, either to ground or power. One or the other, but both faults can cause the same complaints.

It does not do anything. You can put the key in and nothing happens. No lights, noises, or anything. Absolutely nothing happens.

One way to test this is a voltage available test. See if you have any voltage present at either the battery terminals, the starter solenoid (I terminal and the B+ terminal) and even to your ignition switch. Electrical systems test are (to me) the easiest to complete and read, but hardest to diagnose, especially when not in front of the car....

One thing you will need to do is to replace the wires, blown fuses, maybe even some relays or switches that could have been damaged. You might be lucky and have just the fuses blown, that's their job to protect the circuit from amperage overload, which in turn is the circuits potential. Like I said, the only un protected circuit on any car is the starter circuit. So maybe its just your starter/solenoid (combined) and just the wires, but you do need to test everything before you can confirm anything. DO NOT start to throw parts at the car without figuring out the problem first. If you can't do it, take it to someone else who can. That's one thing I tell all of my customers, and that's one thing I always make sure they understand what exactly went wrong with their cars and how I fixed them....

Another thing is I would tell you to do an amperage available test, but everything has to be connected and in good working order to get proper readings. MOST DMM's do not have an amperage rating that high, so you will need a magnetic pickup or a shunt to get proper readings.

 

[VelocitàPaola]

Voltage won't burn a circuit, nor will resistance, only amperage.

Well, the three are inextricably linked: high-voltage can most certainly blow holes through wire insulation, though I agree, something is pulling too much current in this case.

Unless its a positive side controlled circuit then yes, but the starting circuit isn't, its ground side controlled.

You're wrong, the starter driver circuit is high-side, not low-side -- it shares a common chassis ground. If there are internal shorts within the wiring of the starter it will pull too much current, get hot and melt wires that aren't rated for that much amperage.

I'm not sure what the difference is between the terms "short to power" and "short to ground." In any DC electrical system there's only one type of short: when power is applied to ground through a low impedance or low resistance connection. Connecting ground to ground or power to power does nothing to the system.

I suggest checking your wiring from the battery to the engine bay, looking specifically for cuts and abrasions in the insulation as RSTeclipse97 suggested. Also, have the starter checked at any auto parts supplier.

 

[eclipsers-t]

I appreciate everyone's suggestions. I am going to work on the car right after work and we are thinking that maybe the solenoid on the starter is gone and causing the car to draw too much power.

I am glad to know that any auto parts store can check the starter. Hopefully, it is as simple as that. I will let you all know later today what I find out.

Thanks

 

[TalonESIT]

Man, it sucks to see those melted wires. I am in the process of relocating my battery to the trunk too. I read that it is recommended to relocate the fuse box as close to the battery as possible; because even in the event that those fuses blow, that positive cable running from your trunk to that box is still HOT because you designated a separate ground (which I'm guessing you just used a earth ground point in your trunk).

 

[eclipsers-t]

Yes, my battery is grounded in the trunk and I did not relocate the fuse box. But I have the feeling I am going to have to rewire some things so maybe I will take that on as a project as well.

 

[Dragon TalonTsi]

Well, the three are inextricably linked: high-voltage can most certainly blow holes through wire insulation, though I agree, something is pulling too much current in this case.



You're wrong, the starter driver circuit is high-side, not low-side -- it shares a common chassis ground. If there are internal shorts within the wiring of the starter it will pull too much current, get hot and melt wires that aren't rated for that much amperage.


I'm not sure what the difference is between the terms "short to power" and "short to ground." In any DC electrical system there's only one type of short: when power is applied to ground through a low impedance or low resistance connection. Connecting ground to ground or power to power does nothing to the system.



I suggest checking your wiring from the battery to the engine bay, looking specifically for cuts and abrasions in the insulation as RSTeclipse97 suggested. Also, have the starter checked at any auto parts supplier.

No, you are wrong. Its the current that heats up and burns the wiring, not voltage. They are linked by Georg Ohms law, 1 volt to push 1 amp through 1 ohm of resistance. Basic terms, and yeah, too much current is causing his problems.

No, define "high" side, you mean hot side I assume, and low side is ground side, your terms are mixed up. Everything in the car except the PCM shares a common ground, the PCM is special and refers to a quiet ground. Yeah, a short is either an unwanted ground path or a unwanted current path. Well, only in the starter circuit is it unprotected, every other circuit, even the alternator, is protected. The starter draws (on average) 300 to 400 amps, which in turns needs little to no resistance at all. Resistance affects amperage directly. And I am looking at the schematics right now, the ignition switch is a + side controlled switch along with the starter solenoid, but the starter motor is controlled by the ground side. Most circuits are controlled by the ground side, due to the fact that the voltage/amperage is consumed by the load device already, which is used as a safety measure. And regardless of what type of waveform the electricity is, whether its AC or DC, Digital or Analog, the same principles apply.


I just told you the difference between a short to ground and a short to voltage. No, there is more than one type of short. No, a short is any + or - that is creating its own path through least resistance, electricity will ALWAYS take the path of least resistance, which in turn causes shorts. You need to read the difference between electrical systems and electronics.


I suggested that before anyone else did...

 

[TalonESIT]

Yes, my battery is grounded in the trunk and I did not relocate the fuse box. But I have the feeling I am going to have to rewire some things so maybe I will take that on as a project as well.

I'm sorry I don't want to confuse you... by fuse box I meant your power distribution block. Not the actual whole fuse box. Sorry if that made things confusing.

 

[Gamble97]

Looks like a dead short to me. And you should have a fuse or something in the trunk. I have a 140amp circuit breaker in mine ever since I relocated the battery.

 

[VelocitàPaola]

No, you are wrong. Its the current that heats up and burns the wiring, not voltage. They are linked by Georg Ohms law, 1 volt to push 1 amp through 1 ohm of resistance. Basic terms, and yeah, too much current is causing his problems.

Have you ever worked with 40,000V electrical systems? Pulling as little as a couple milliamps the voltage potential is enough to arc right through standard PVC insulation and cause some pretty nasty results. I assume your only experience is with automotive electrical systems (correct me if I'm wrong), but excessive voltage or current can destroy wire insulation... which is why most wires have voltage ratings in addition to their gauge measurements which are used to extrapolate amperage ratings.

Irregardless, I had already agreed that it was obviously too much current in this case.

No, define "high" side, you mean hot side I assume, and low side is ground side, your terms are mixed up.

High side and low side drivers are common electrical terms. High side means the control device is switching a connection to power and low side means it's switching a connection to ground. It's often easier to use low side drivers since NPN transistors can be saturated by TTL level supplies, yet they can switch much greater loads. High side drivers require more circuitry for completely solid state devices, though cars achieve the same effect through the use of relays. The term "hot" is reserved for AC systems.

Everything in the car except the PCM shares a common ground, the PCM is special and refers to a quiet ground. Yeah, a short is either an unwanted ground path or a unwanted current path. Well, only in the starter circuit is it unprotected, every other circuit, even the alternator, is protected.

Ok... we're on the same page here...

The starter draws (on average) 300 to 400 amps, which in turns needs little to no resistance at all. Resistance affects amperage directly. And I am looking at the schematics right now, the ignition switch is a + side controlled switch along with the starter solenoid, but the starter motor is controlled by the ground side. Most circuits are controlled by the ground side, due to the fact that the voltage/amperage is consumed by the load device already, which is used as a safety measure.

You're contradicting yourself here. First you say "+ side controlled switch" and then you said "controlled by the ground side." The starter motor is controlled by the starter relay which is in turn controlled by the ignition switch. All devices are switching the supply, not the ground, making them high side drivers. In cars, as I've said, most devices are controlled by switching the supply, not the ground.

And regardless of what type of waveform the electricity is, whether its AC or DC, Digital or Analog, the same principles apply.

Somewhat... though not exactly. AC circuits have a unique set of principles that don't always mirror those of DC circuits.

I just told you the difference between a short to ground and a short to voltage. No, there is more than one type of short. No, a short is any + or - that is creating its own path through least resistance, electricity will ALWAYS take the path of least resistance, which in turn causes shorts. You need to read the difference between electrical systems and electronics.

Ok? You contradicted yourself again... after saying there is more than one type of short you generalized the definition and said "a short is any + or - that is creating..." Shorts are shorts: an unwanted connection between differing voltage levels.

I understand you're trying to protect your reputation, or something, but an ASE certification in electrical systems doesn't make you an electrician, an electrical engineer or any kind of electronics expert. I was just pointing out a few errors in your terminology and/or a couple mistakes about how the 420A works as opposed to what you regularly work on.

I stand by my recommendations, look for cuts and abrasions on the wiring and definitely have that starter checked out.

 

[RSTeclipse97]

No it won't. Unless its a positive side controlled circuit then yes, but the starting circuit isn't, its ground side controlled. The most that could happen with this type of circuit is what he is saying, nothing happens, which makes me believe its a short, either to ground or power. One or the other, but both faults can cause the same complaints.

ASE certified or not, you say im wrong yet you pretty much said the same thing in differant words about the positive side which is what i was talking about. This is why i dont take my car to garages, cause they are certified no it alls that know jack. Anyway every starter in the world has a positive cable to it right from the battery. If somewhere between the starter and battery the cable got rubbed through and is shorting against the car it will melt everytime. So just track your wiring from the starter to the battery looking for a bare or burnt spot, that will be the easiest thing to check for and if you find that and fix it your car will probablly start granite nothing got fried from the overload.

 

[Dragon TalonTsi]

Have you ever worked with 40,000V electrical systems? Pulling as little as a couple milliamps the voltage potential is enough to arc right through standard PVC insulation and cause some pretty nasty results. I assume your only experience is with automotive electrical systems (correct me if I'm wrong), but excessive voltage or current can destroy wire insulation... which is why most wires have voltage ratings in addition to their gauge measurements which are used to extrapolate amperage ratings.

Irregardless, I had already agreed that it was obviously too much current in this case.



High side and low side drivers are common electrical terms. High side means the control device is switching a connection to power and low side means it's switching a connection to ground. It's often easier to use low side drivers since NPN transistors can be saturated by TTL level supplies, yet they can switch much greater loads. High side drivers require more circuitry for completely solid state devices, though cars achieve the same effect through the use of relays. The term "hot" is reserved for AC systems.



Ok... we're on the same page here...



You're contradicting yourself here. First you say "+ side controlled switch" and then you said "controlled by the ground side." The starter motor is controlled by the starter relay which is in turn controlled by the ignition switch. All devices are switching the supply, not the ground, making them high side drivers. In cars, as I've said, most devices are controlled by switching the supply, not the ground.



Somewhat... though not exactly. AC circuits have a unique set of principles that don't always mirror those of DC circuits.



Ok? You contradicted yourself again... after saying there is more than one type of short you generalized the definition and said "a short is any + or - that is creating..." Shorts are shorts: an unwanted connection between differing voltage levels.

I understand you're trying to protect your reputation, or something, but an ASE certification in electrical systems doesn't make you an electrician, an electrical engineer or any kind of electronics expert. I was just pointing out a few errors in your terminology and/or a couple mistakes about how the 420A works as opposed to what you regularly work on.

I stand by my recommendations, look for cuts and abrasions on the wiring and definitely have that starter checked out.

If you are talking about mA, in a 22 wire gauge or more yeah, it will cause some major damage, but not in a typical 6-8 gauge starter/battery terminal wire. No, I have more experience (Microwave electronics technician for 5+ years, with +4 MegaVolts and GigaHtz) where the voltage is well over 40,000V, with step up transformers and step down transformers. Resistance and amperage are cooperating with eachother. Resistance in a circuit goes up, the amperage goes down, and the same reversed. Its not voltage that ruins and burns, its amperage. Voltage does not heat, amperage does. Why do you think defibrillators use only high voltage with minimal amperage ratings, cause less than .1 of an amp will kill a human (by overloading your CNS and natural pacemaker), but it takes more than 50+ Volts to jump start your heart?

Regardless if its an NPN or PNP transistor (Collector Emitter, Base), they both control current the same, and switch on and off over 15k a second. High side is for the High pressure side in the AC system, and the Low side is for the low pressure system. That's the terms used properly. Every transistor, relay, switch, what have you, are all control devices for electricity, both voltage and amperage, which in turn control the devices we want to turn on or off by our request.

Without a proper ground side, the hot side will not work, period. It causes an OPEN, which no component will not work with an OPEN, because there is no chance for amperage or voltage to flow. Infinite resistance is the same thing as an OPEN. And like I said, most manufacturers are going to ground side control devices, due to the fact that the voltage and amperage is already being consumed by the load devices.

Well, if Alternatin current and Direct current have a different set of rules, show me. And show the SAE and ASE NATEF along with NASA these rules. I have a 1000 page SAE certified book on Electricity/Electronics from Thomson Delmar, and for each one, of course, the wave patterns (SINE waves compared to Square waves) will be different, but the electronic principles remain the same. Regardless if its a ground side controlled cirucuit or a feed side circuit. I am not trying to boast, I am just trying to help out a fellow DSMer about his electrical problems, which I deal with on a daily basis, and I am also certified in by the SAE/ASE boards. And both my GrandFather and Father were both electrical engineers that started out as basic electricians... which I am going a similar route, technician to engineer. I used to play with this stuff as a kid, but I could never fully understand it until I really jumped in face first into the industry.

A short is not for just for voltage. Amperage is also included. Its not about the different deffered voltage levels, electricity doesn't care about how much voltage or amperage is going through a particular circuit, if it has lower resistance than the circuit that its currently running, it will jump or bridge the gap and cause an unwanted short.

Like I had said before, I have a college degree in this field of expertise, I am ASE certified, and I work in an automotive speed shop for both basic maintenance and performance, so I do work with not just junkyard refugees, I work with some pretty big powerhouses as well. To get ASE certd, you need at least 2 years of full time work on automobiles and it needs to be valid, then you can qualify to take the tests and if you pass, you get cert'd. It doesn't just need to be on Mitsu/Chrylser, its on all makes and models ever made. I have gone from one field of electronics to another, and the majority of the principles stayed the same, just on a lower band level.

You guys have to ask yourself this, when you go to the doctor, do you want someone that just practices medicine for a living and gets by, or do you want someone that has gone to college, has REAL LIFE work experience, and has a license to practice medicine? I personally leave the professional matters to the professionals, and if I don't know, I'll be first to ask for help.

ASE certified or not, you say im wrong yet you pretty much said the same thing in differant words about the positive side which is what i was talking about. This is why i dont take my car to garages, cause they are certified no it alls that know jack. Anyway every starter in the world has a positive cable to it right from the battery. If somewhere between the starter and battery the cable got rubbed through and is shorting against the car it will melt everytime. So just track your wiring from the starter to the battery looking for a bare or burnt spot, that will be the easiest thing to check for and if you find that and fix it your car will probablly start granite nothing got fried from the overload.
I will always listen to what a an actuall tech has to say, but a lot of them should have this done cause most off them just think they know something

I said it first and I also said what to look for exactly, you gave a vauge description. You seem to know everything and everyone else (including Master Techs with 30 years under their belts) doesn't seem to know what they are talking about. I am working with 2 Senior Master ASE techs, that both have 35 years of experience in the automotive industry, and they are showing me everything else that I haven't seen, and they have seen the biggest changes from Carbs to TBI to FI and now to GDI. I know I still have a lot to learn, but this is my profession. Yeah, you do have one good point, a start does have a B+ terminal, directly to the solenoid, which converts electrical energy into mechanical energy, in turn which moves the drive gear to turn the flywheel, yada yada yade, we know the drill. It might not just be a "burnt" spot in his wiring. Like I said, to be a true ASE tech, you need quite a bit of experience to be called a technician, 2+ years of actual work time, and not just on one specific make and model. I never said you were wrong about the fault, I did say it in depth in terms, but you were wrong about the faults that occured... Its not just bare wires exposed here, that's only one of the symptoms...

Like I said Velocita, I don't want to argue, nor do I want to put out a name for anyone, but I work on other things other than DSM's, and have seen what else other manufacturers have done and used. I know plenty of people that can turn a wrench on a DSM, but can't on anything else but a DSM. I started out as a kid with my GTP, and then my DSM, now my knowledge has quadrupled with other systems, other than those 2 specific cars. I want whats best for the customer, and I want him to have the best advice, from the textbooks and my own experiences. I am not downing you, nor am I trying to see a pissing contest, but this is one thing I know like the back of my hand. And I still, we all still, have something else to learn...

 

[VelocitàPaola]

If you are talking about mA, in a 22 wire gauge or more yeah, it will cause some major damage, but not in a typical 6-8 gauge starter/battery terminal wire. No, I have more experience (Microwave electronics technician for 5+ years, with +4 MegaVolts and GigaHtz) where the voltage is well over 400V, with step up transformers and step down transformers. Resistance and amperage are cooperating with eachother. Resistance in a circuit goes up, the amperage goes down, and the same reversed. Its not voltage that ruins and burns, its amperage. Voltage does not heat, amperage does. Why do you think defibrillators use only high voltage with minimal amperage ratings, cause less than .1 of an amp will kill a human (by overloading your CNS), but it takes more than 50+ Volts to jump start your heart?

Oh boy... and we have a pissing match. You just keep reiterating Ohm's law and throwing around jargon. We get it. No one disagreed with Ohm's law, and I'm sure you have extensive training. I only said that high voltage can indeed melt insulation and exceed a wire's ratings in opposition to your declaration that only high current can do so.

Regardless if its an NPN or PNP transistor (Collector Emitter, Base), they both control current the same, and switch on and off over 15k a second.

Transistors switch at vastly different rates, and NPN's switch common grounds by saturating the base with a voltage, while PNP's switch supplies by sinking the base to ground... but I digress, we're getting off topic.

High side is for the High pressure side in the AC system, and the Low side is for the low pressure system. That's the terms used properly. Every transistor, relay, switch, what have you, are all control devices for electricity, both voltage and amperage, which in turn control the devices we want to turn on or off by our request.

You're regurgitating terms you've heard in a class or read in a book. High side and low side drivers may not be something a mechanic is accustomed to hearing, but they're words electrical engineers encounter often. I already explained their meaning.

Without a proper ground side, the hot side will not work, period. It causes an OPEN, which no component will not work with an OPEN, because there is no chance for amperage or voltage to flow. Infinite resistance is the same thing as an OPEN. And like I said, most manufacturers are going to ground side control devices, due to the fact that the voltage and amperage is already being consumed by the load devices.

I understand the basics of a circuit, yes.

Well, if Alternatin current and Direct current have a different set of rules, show me. And show the SAE and ASE NATEF along with NASA these rules. I have a 1000 page SAE certified book on Electricity/Electronics from Thomson Delmar, and for each one, of course, the wave patterns (SINE waves compared to Square waves) will be different, but the electronic principles remain the same. Regardless if its a ground side controlled cirucuit or a feed side circuit. I am not trying to boast, I am just trying to help out a fellow DSMer about his electrical problems, which I deal with on a daily basis, and I am also certified in by the SAE/ASE boards.

Are you aware that AC power switches from positive voltages to negative voltages, not just 0V to +XV? Did you know that inductors behave incredibly differently under alternating and direct currents?

A short is not for just for voltage. Amperage is also included. Its not about the different deffered voltage levels, electricity doesn't care about how much voltage or amperage is going through a particular circuit, if it has lower resistance than the circuit that its currently running, it will jump or bridge the gap and cause an unwanted short.

The definition of a short circuit is an accidental low-resistance bridge allowing current to flow between two nodes of a system at different voltage levels. I think we're saying the same thing here, but you're obfuscating the point.

Like I had said before, I have a college degree in this field of expertise, I am ASE certified, and I work in an automotive speed shop for both basic maintenance and performance, so I do work with not just junkyard refugees, I work with some pretty big powerhouses as well. To get ASE certd, you need at least 2 years of full time work on automobiles and it needs to be valid, then you can qualify to take the tests and if you pass, you get cert'd. It doesn't just need to be on Mitsu/Chrylser, its on all makes and models ever made. I have gone from one field of electronics to another, and the majority of the principles stayed the same, just on a lower band level.

You guys have to ask yourself this, when you go to the doctor, do you want someone that just practices medicine for a living and gets by, or do you want someone that has gone to college, has REAL LIFE work experience, and has a license to practice medicine? I personally leave the professional matters to the professionals, and if I don't know, I'll be first to ask for help.

I understand the requirements in order to achieve ASE certification are rigorous, but others of us also have ASE certification, are longtime SAE and IEEE members and hold various engineering degrees as well. Let's stay on topic from now on...

 

[Dragon TalonTsi]

Oh boy... and we have a pissing match. You just keep reiterating Ohm's law and throwing around jargon. We get it. No one disagreed with Ohm's law, and I'm sure you have extensive training. I only said that high voltage can indeed melt insulation and exceed a wire's ratings in opposition to your declaration that only high current can do so.



Transistors switch at vastly different rates, and NPN's switch common grounds by saturating the base with a voltage, while PNP's switch supplies by sinking the base to ground... but I digress, we're getting off topic.



You're regurgitating terms you've heard in a class or read in a book. High side and low side drivers may not be something a mechanic is accustomed to hearing, but they're words electrical engineers encounter often. I already explained their meaning.



I understand the basics of a circuit, yes.



Are you aware that AC power switches from positive voltages to negative voltages, not just 0V to +XV? Did you know that inductors behave incredibly differently under alternating and direct currents?



The definition of a short circuit is an accidental low-resistance bridge allowing current to flow between two nodes of a system at different voltage levels. I think we're saying the same thing here, but you're obfuscating the point.



I understand the requirements in order to achieve ASE certification are rigorous, but others of us also have ASE certification, are longtime SAE and IEEE members and hold various engineering degrees as well. Let's stay on topic from now on...

See what I mean bro? Its all good, and we both have an understanding, but at the same time, I do know from hard times, and real life experience. I know that about AC SINE waves (Abs speed sensors) are a constant flow from + to -, with a cycle, peak to peak voltage, and a frequency. Inductive pickups, (which I assume you are talking about) use a permanent/earth magnet to read the AC voltage being present in any cirucuit. Now we are getting into how alternators turn mechanical energy into electrical energy, by inducing voltage, which gets converted, and powers the accessories in a car. I'll be here all night explaining on how each one works, but you get the idea. And DC voltage (hall effect sensors), is a complete different wave form and yeah, it only goes from 0V to xxV and thats it, nothing beyond the -y axis, unless there is an open/high resistance ground, then there will be V on the ground side of the circuit.

And we both do understand that yes, rigorrous training must be done to obtain a certification such as this, but school is school, and real life is real life, both are needed to fully succeed. It sounds like we have both of those under our belts. I hold an automotive engineering degree, I am getting my certs in welding, I am already ASE cert'd, and I am also looking into going to some other colleges for pursuing my other degree. Its just that we are conversing with our knowlege about the subjects. I saw melting wires in the thread topic, and I happened to be online, so here we are a day later. I hope he finds out what his problem is, and if he had any other questions, he can come here...

 

[BoostedTalonTS]

Jeeeze guys.. talk about reinventing the wheel... From the looks of it in the first pic, it seems like this is a simple case of a grounded-out starter wire. LOOK at the exposed ring terminal in the pic... Is it just me or does that look like it has arced to the starter solenoid's housing (ground, low side, negative, whatever... CHASSIS GROUND)? Wasn't there a rubber insulating boot that covered that one terminal on the solenoid?

OP:
I'd start by getting a multimeter and check for continuity between the burnt starter wire and chassis ground... IF it has continuity then disconnect the eyelet from the starter and recheck it. -my bet is that the eyelet welded itself to the solenoid housing (at least that what it looks like in the pics anyways).
Also, get rid of those POS AGU (glass) fuses... Those things are complete garbage! -I've seem toooooo many of them 'look good' but as soon as you put a load on them they end up transferring less energy (current & voltage)... I'd recommend going with either a MAXI or ANL style fuse/fuse holder. -These types also generally support more current then the crappy AGU style... AND Both the MAXI & ANL fuse types are made from one solid conductor vs that of the 3 piece AGU fuses.
Good Luck

 

[eclipsers-t]

Alright, well it seems as though this has been a controversial issue for some, while others are trying to help.

Anyway, we used a multimeter yesterday and found that we had ground to starter wire. We took the starter off and went to AutoZone to get it checked and it tested fine. So we changed the wire from the power distribution block to the starter and it worked fine. We did not see anything wrong with that cable. We are unsure as to what exactly caused the short or the ground to wire would have happened.

Hey BoostedTalon, are the fuses that you refer to something that can be picked up at the auto store?

Thanks for your suggestions and lessons in electricity.

 

[BoostedTalonTS]

What about the ring terminal? -Was the part of it that's crimped on to the starter wire touching the starter solenoid housing? -If so, then that was the cause of the short. -BE SURE to insulate that ring terminal on your new starter wire... Use electrical tape, shrink tube, or a rubber boot... Just BE SURE that that thing is properly insulated on the side so that it can't ground against the side of the solenoid.

As for the fuses, you can get replacement MAXI fuses at any auto parts store.

The MAXI & ANL style fuse holders & ANL fuses are usually found at high end stereo shops. But you can get them for much cheaper elsewhere..

Here's an eGay link (for reference):

ANL Fuse Holder (use one of these at the battery itself w/ a ~250 amp fuse):
Stinger Platinum Inline 0 4 ANL Fuse Holder SPD5204 - eBay (item 200221653219 end time May-11-08 18:31:59 PDT)


MAXI Distribution BLock (Use in the engine bay for multiple, independently fused circuits):
Stinger 4 Gang MAXI Fuse Distribution Block 4/8 SPD5625 - eBay (item 200221654862 end time May-11-08 18:38:36 PDT)

...Just be mindful of the size (guage) of wire that you will need to hook up to each. From the pics, it looks like you ran 4 AWG from the trunk... I'd honestly consider upgrading that to AT LEAST 2 AWG... Personally, I've ran 1/0 in my car but that's a bit overkill -That stuff is like garden hose

 

[eclipsers-t]

What about the ring terminal? -Was the part of it that's crimped on to the starter wire touching the starter solenoid housing? -If so, then that was the cause of the short. -BE SURE to insulate that ring terminal on your new starter wire... Use electrical tape, shrink tube, or a rubber boot... Just BE SURE that that thing is properly insulated on the side so that it can't ground against the side of the solenoid.

...Just be mindful of the size (guage) of wire that you will need to hook up to each. From the pics, it looks like you ran 4 AWG from the trunk... I'd honestly consider upgrading that to AT LEAST 2 AWG... Personally, I've ran 1/0 in my car but that's a bit overkill -That stuff is like garden hose

I will have to check the starter solenoid to see if the wire was actually touching it or not. I will check later this evening although it may be hard to do so now as we have already changed the wire.

Yea, I am running 4 gauge wire. I have not heard of 2 gauge, but I have heard of 1/0, which I know is thick. I will look into it.

Thanks for the info on the fuses and I will definitely look into those as well. I appreciate your assistance.

 

[freshlane]

Should consider a breaker closer to the battery.

 

[Locke]

:sigh:

Wire will not burn/overheat past the point of the short, as there will be no abnormal draw past this point - path of least resistance, and all. Overheated wires will have discoloured, misshapen, missing, and/or hard and brittle insulators. If your wire is overheated from the battery to the starter, then the fault is at the starter.

Test the starter, replace all the affected wiring being sure to keep the power wire well insulated from the starter's shell, and make sure all your connections are secure. Consider a heavier power lead and a circuit breaker.

 

[eclipsers-t]

Wire will not burn/overheat past the point of the short, as there will be no abnormal draw past this point - path of least resistance, and all. Overheated wires will have discoloured, misshapen, missing, and/or hard and brittle insulators. If your wire is overheated from the battery to the starter, then the fault is at the starter.

Yea, the wire was melted in numerous places. And the starter is not bad. I had the starter tested and it passed all tests. At this current time I do not know the exact cause of the problem, but I have had the car running since the incident and I have to go back over the car to make sure everything else is fine with the car. I will probably be changing out the power distribution block for better fuses boxes.