Long, noobie wastegate questions..

[xxraptor660xx]

I have a few questions about my external 38mm setup.

First off, what are the differences between the wastegate sizes (38mm,44mm etc.)?

Second, I found out that my spring is a 14.5 psi spring. Does this mean that after 14.5 psi of boost the gate opens? When I'm at WOT, I hit about 15psi of boost then my rpms barely rev up , and I don't get any more boost (even though it's set to 18 with my AVC_R). I'm usually in 5th gear at 3,000 RPM, and the car wont go any faster.

My last question is, can the spring in the wastegate be changed? If I put a higher rated spring, will my car hold more boost?

I'm new to this setup so please take it easy with the flaming

Thanks for the help!

 

[98mitsuGSX-SD]

First off, The wastegate size helps with larger turbos with controlling boost. Since your running a B16G you should be fine with running a 38mm.

The spring rate is what opens your wastegate. It's the default pressure. On your AVC-R it should have 3 settings 1, 2 and off. When in the off position the wastegate is acuated by the spring rate.

The AVC-R should be holding the wastegate closed if you've set it to 18PSI. Are you sure that the AVC-R solenoid is working properly and your AVC-R is set up correct?

You can swap out the spring for a stiffer spring but you won't be able to boost less than what the spring is rated for.

 

[xxraptor660xx]

First off, The wastegate size helps with larger turbos with controlling boost. Since your running a B16G you should be fine with running a 38mm.

The spring rate is what opens your wastegate. It's the default pressure. On your AVC-R it should have 3 settings 1, 2 and off. When in the off position the wastegate is acuated by the spring rate.

The AVC-R should be holding the wastegate closed if you've set it to 18PSI. Are you sure that the AVC-R solenoid is working properly and your AVC-R is set up correct?

You can swap out the spring for a stiffer spring but you won't be able to boost less than what the spring is rated for.

Well I purchased the car this way. Is there a writeup or anything that I can read to test it? My AVC_R might be messed up because even if I set my boost to like 10 lbs, it always goes to 15 no matter what the setting is.

When you say setting 1,2 or off, do you mean setting A, B, or off?

 

[CanadianTSi]

Well I purchased the car this way. Is there a writeup or anything that I can read to test it? My AVC_R might be messed up because even if I set my boost to like 10 lbs, it always goes to 15 no matter what the setting is.

When you say setting 1,2 or off, do you mean setting A, B, or off?

15psi is the spring pressure therefore that is the lowest boost you can run, unless you change springs.

 

[xxraptor660xx]

Yea but it seems like at 15 psi the gate opens, and I can't boost anymore.. And im running 19 psi

 

[98mitsuGSX-SD]

yes A,B and off. Sorry it's been sometime since I've had the AVC-R in my car. Go to the Apexi site and download the adobe manual for the AVC-R. Make sure the ports on the solenoid are connected properly. Since you bought the car and didn't do the install. I'd suggest going over the install again just to verify that the install was done properly.

 

[DGajre777]

What boost do you want to run? Just get a proper spring for the external wastegate and put it in there. As said before the spring rating is the LOWEST boost that you will be able to run. If you need a boost setting higher than the spring pressure, then you'll need a boost controller to raise the boost pressure.

Here are the spring pressures available by Tial for the 38mm external wastegate:
BAR PSI DESCRIPTION O.D.
0.250 3.626 Small Yellow 1.875 In
0.400 5.802 Small Red 1.875 In
0.500 7.252 Small Green 1.875 In
0.600 8.702 Small Blue 1.875 In
0.700 10.153 Large Yellow 2.360 In
0.800 11.603 Large Red 2.360 In
0.900 13.053 Large Green 2.360 In
1.000 14.504 Large Blue 2.360 In
1.100 15.954 ** ( ex. Lg Yellow + Sm Red ) Small + Large
1.200 17.405 ** ( ex. Lg Red + Sm Red ) Small + Large
1.300 18.855 ** ( ex. Lg Green + Sm Red ) Small + Large
1.400 20.305 ** ( ex. Lg Blue + Sm Red ) Small + Large
1.500 21.756 ** ( ex. Lg Blue + Sm Green ) Small + Large
1.600 23.206 ** ( ex. Lg Blue + Sm Blue ) Small + Large

So if you want to ditch your AVCR and run 15 psi, get a Large Blue spring which is rated for 1.00 BAR or 14.5 PSI. IF you want to run 23 PSI, get a Large blue and Small blue spring and use 2 springs together.

http://www.tialmedia.com/documents/w3_tial_38_sp.pdf
http://www.tialmedia.com/documents/w3_tial_wg_assem.pdf

 

[xxraptor660xx]

Thanks for the info Wiseman. So basically the AVC-r is useless to me for setting boost? It all depends on the spring I have? I don't need a boost controller? I have a large blue spring right now.

 

[98mitsuGSX-SD]

He really shouldn't have to go to a higher spring rate for more boost. The AVC-R should do it's job and hold the pressure until the solenoid triggers the wastegate. I know the ports on the AVC-R are different for which wastegate your running. That's why I directed him to the apexi website to verify it was properly installed.

 

[DGajre777]

Thanks for the info Wiseman. So basically the AVC-r is useless to me for setting boost? It all depends on the spring I have? I don't need a boost controller? I have a large blue spring right now.

You are welcome! Yes, it all depends on the spring you have. You can run with 1 or 2 springs without a boost controller, if you plan to run at one boost setting and do NOT plan to decrease or increase it. If you have a large blue spring and are hitting 15psi when your AVC-R is set to 18, your AVC-R is basically not doing what it is supposed to do.

As said earlier, your AVC-R may not be installed right. Check on that before you go out to buy another spring. You could also just look into a good manual boost controller instead of staying limited with one boost settings with springs, IF you have a bad AVC-R.

 

[xxraptor660xx]

What if hypothetically speaking, I were to get 1.400 20.305 ** ( ex. Lg Blue + Sm Red ) Small + Large, and set my boost to 18 psi? Would I creep? I know that kind of defeats the whole purpose of an external setup, but i'm just curious. Thanks.

 

[DGajre777]

What if hypothetically speaking, I were to get 1.400 20.305 ** ( ex. Lg Blue + Sm Red ) Small + Large, and set my boost to 18 psi? Would I creep? I know that kind of defeats the whole purpose of an external setup, but i'm just curious. Thanks.

If you have a spring (or combination of 2) rated for 20PSI, you CANNOT run 18 PSI. The rate on the springs are the LOWEST pressure that you can run.

 

[98mitsuGSX-SD]

"Ok I retrieved my settings off my AVC-r

NE points- 3k-7.5k RPM

FB speed-
1s- 5
2n- 5
3r- 5
4t- 5
5t- 5

Start duty- set to -30% on all NE points.

Boost duty-
boost- .60 bar
duty- 63%"

I took this off your other post. Those settings are odd. The boost should be above 1.0 bar if you want to run a higher pressure than your wastegate. .60 bar is roughly 8-9PSI. You should have your start duty NE points set to 0 cause when you alter the NE points start duty it affects your boost for that specific gear. And the last NE point for gear 5 should be 6.5k or 7.0k cause at 7.5k your hitting the stock rev limiter. I'd also reduce your start duty to somewhere around 40%.

Your Feedback is ok for an your initial start up but you'll want it in the 3 setting once your able to control your boost and the AVC-R has entered learning mode.

 

[xxraptor660xx]

Thanks i'll try those, so you say if I go over 1.0 bar i'll overrun the wastegate's set pressure?

 

[98mitsuGSX-SD]

Yes 1.0 bar is roughly 15PSI. So if you set it past 1.0 bar you'll exceed your spring rate. Did you check the ports on the AVC-R solenoid? There is a specific way your suppose to have them set up for an external wastegate.

 

[thekellbeast]

Thanks i'll try those, so you say if I go over 1.0 bar i'll overrun the wastegate's set pressure?

The wastegate spring is the boost level that you are going to run. It is not possible to run lower than that, no matter what you set your boost controller to.

If you want to run higher than that, set your boost controller to the level you want to run, and it will increase the boost level beyond what the spring is set at.

My 18g has an internal wastegate with a factory spring of around 9psi. That's the minumum I can run, even with a line going directly from the boost source to the wastegate. To run higher, I obviously put in a boost controller, and used it to crank the boost level up to about 15.

 

[oldman]

Answer the question damn it , how is your AVCR/external wastegate hooked up?

 

[xxraptor660xx]

Answer the question damn it , how is your AVCR/external wastegate hooked up?

The AVC-R solenoid is teed off to the line behind my TB. The other line out of the solenoid is hooked up to the top of my wastegate. I don't know how much this helps, I didn't set this up myself.


Everyone is saying that turning up my boost will overrun my spring rating. Does this work with an EBC or just a MBC? No matter how high I set my boost, my gate opens at 15 psi, and won't go any higher no matter what. If im in 5th gear WOT, I'd hit 15 psi at 3000-4000 rpm, then the car would not increase in power, nor boost. Is this normal?

 

[tkelly27]

What do you mean it won't increase in HP or boost? If your car stops pulling at 3000-4000rpm, then that is a problem, but if your are holding boost and still going faster it's still Ok. If it won't rev past there, then that is a real problem.

You don't need any new springs unless you want to run less than 15psi. A boost controller blinds the waste gate until the pressure the boost controller has been set to has been achieved. This is how it works with a manual and an electronic one. The spring setting is the boost you would get if you routed a line from your intake manifold to the waste gate can, that's all. Without any pressure going to it, the spring will hold significantly higher pressures. This is why you can run 20+ odd psi on an internal 16G gate, even though it's only got a spring for 9psi.

A quick and dangerous experiment would be to take the line going to the WG can off and taking a run. Do it on a road where you can watch your boost gauge carefully and let out of the throttle as soon as it goes past what you're seeing. If you leave your foot buried you will go to the maximum boost level your turbo can create.

A less dangerous experiment would be to make a cheap MBC (you can make a bleeder valve for $3 with home depot parts, or a quicker spooling G-valve for about $10 and a little more effort) and use that instead. I think you'll find you can get more boost.

Your problem is most likely to be found in your electric boost controller. Find the instruction manual for it online and make sure it's hooked up properly. My guess is that the solenoid is hooked up improperly, or not functioning due to the fact that it's acting as if there is a line going straight from the WG to the intake manifold.

If those don't fix it, then you could have problems with your turbo, or some other component. It would be difficult to diagnose without knowing that your boost controller is functioning properly.

 

[oldman]

The AVC-R solenoid is teed off to the line behind my TB. The other line out of the solenoid is hooked up to the top of my wastegate. I don't know how much this helps, I didn't set this up myself.


Everyone is saying that turning up my boost will overrun my spring rating. Does this work with an EBC or just a MBC? No matter how high I set my boost, my gate opens at 15 psi, and won't go any higher no matter what. If im in 5th gear WOT, I'd hit 15 psi at 3000-4000 rpm, then the car would not increase in power, nor boost. Is this normal?

You got it all wrong, this is how you hook up an EBC to an external wastegate, ignore the part that says "manual air regulator or electronic air control valve".

http://www.tialmedia.com/documents/w3_tial_wginstall.pdf

Should have called me back.

 

[xxraptor660xx]

What do you mean it won't increase in HP or boost? If your car stops pulling at 3000-4000rpm, then that is a problem, but if your are holding boost and still going faster it's still Ok. If it won't rev past there, then that is a real problem.

You don't need any new springs unless you want to run less than 15psi. A boost controller blinds the waste gate until the pressure the boost controller has been set to has been achieved. This is how it works with a manual and an electronic one. The spring setting is the boost you would get if you routed a line from your intake manifold to the waste gate can, that's all. Without any pressure going to it, the spring will hold significantly higher pressures. This is why you can run 20+ odd psi on an internal 16G gate, even though it's only got a spring for 9psi.

A quick and dangerous experiment would be to take the line going to the WG can off and taking a run. Do it on a road where you can watch your boost gauge carefully and let out of the throttle as soon as it goes past what you're seeing. If you leave your foot buried you will go to the maximum boost level your turbo can create.

A less dangerous experiment would be to make a cheap MBC (you can make a bleeder valve for $3 with home depot parts, or a quicker spooling G-valve for about $10 and a little more effort) and use that instead. I think you'll find you can get more boost.

Your problem is most likely to be found in your electric boost controller. Find the instruction manual for it online and make sure it's hooked up properly. My guess is that the solenoid is hooked up improperly, or not functioning due to the fact that it's acting as if there is a line going straight from the WG to the intake manifold.

If those don't fix it, then you could have problems with your turbo, or some other component. It would be difficult to diagnose without knowing that your boost controller is functioning properly.

Thanks alot, this really helps, and explains alot. Is there anyway of testing my AVC-R solenoid? Tomorrow ill try that dangerous experiment. Which line do I need to take off, the one from the solenoid, or the one on the top of the wastegate? I assume it's the one coming from the boost solenoid, am I correct?

 

[fourreGsixty3]

Watch out for just using spring's as "boost controllers" if that spring should fail it will take more then 15psi to open the gate up, and that will keep the turbo ever increasing your boost, and I garantee that your engine will pop before that turbo runs out of air to suck in. I would set up your AVC-R like the link that Bruce posted, and go to a smaller spring. With the AVC-R working properly you will be boosting to your desired boost level, and I would switch down to a 5-8psi spring, and this will allow you to lower your boost via the AVC-R, and also it will be insurance because that spring will collapse, and let air out in case of the AVC-R breaking, and the spring will open before much more then stock boost is made thus diverting air from the turbine before your engine pop's. Thats just my thought's. Some may agree...or none may, but just my personal opinion that Ive done research into for my personal application, and it gives me security/peace of mind to know that if the worst happens with the boost controller, that my engine will avoid a costly rebuild.

-Dustin

 

[tkelly27]

The one from the top of the wastegate. If you do this, the ONLY thing controlling your boost level is your right foot. Be careful, it comes on fast.

How many barbs does the solenoid have. If it's two, you should not be able to blow through it with the key off. If it's three, you should not be able to blow through the two that are hooked up while the key is off. This is the "blinding" portion. Your WG can't feel any boost, therefore it stays closed, even if the pressure in the manifold is above 15psi. As soon as the solenoid opens, the WG opens. The MBC flutters open and shut mechanically with a ball and spring as it regulates boost, and the EBC does the same thing but with electronic pulses to the solenoid.

 

[xxraptor660xx]

Should have called me back.

I was on my way home from Etown and this little civic kept ####ing with me, I'm easily distracted and i completely forgot to call back

 

[xxraptor660xx]

The one from the top of the wastegate. If you do this, the ONLY thing controlling your boost level is your right foot. Be careful, it comes on fast.

How many barbs does the solenoid have. If it's two, you should not be able to blow through it with the key off. If it's three, you should not be able to blow through the two that are hooked up while the key is off. This is the "blinding" portion. Your WG can't feel any boost, therefore it stays closed, even if the pressure in the manifold is above 15psi. As soon as the solenoid opens, the WG opens. The MBC flutters open and shut mechanically with a ball and spring as it regulates boost, and the EBC does the same thing but with electronic pulses to the solenoid.

Solenoid has 2, one coming from the lines behind the tb, the other goes out to the WG