Long, noobie wastegate questions..

[oldman]

Well I didn't know that my Wg wouldn't open and guess what I hit...That's right 1.85 bar! And guess what else, my car didn't explode either!

1. Never continue to boost when you discover the boost gauge doesn't move.

2. Make 100% sure that you know exactly which is the "p" port on your TB. Better yet, pull it off while the car is idling and make sure you feel vacuum. This is a mistake you don't want to make.

3. Your weekend project should be to tap a fitting on your turbo outlet pipe and restore everything EXACTLY as shown on my diagram.

4. When using an EBC with a external wastegate setup, the adjustments on the controller are reversed unless there is a reverse function on your particular EBC.

 

[xxraptor660xx]

So that's what the line going from the turbo is? Maybe that's why I was so confused.
And my gauge does work now.
Isn't a quick seconds of 25 psi good enough to kill my engine?
Isn't the "p" port the one with the "p" next to it?
What adjustments are reversed? I don't exactly understand what this means. Are you reffering to start duty's and stuff?

 

[oldman]

Isn't a quick seconds of 25 psi good enough to kill my engine?

Most of the time no, I'm surprised your ECU didn't save your ass by triggering fuel cut.

Isn't the "p" port the one with the "p" next to it?

Mine doesn't have a "p" written on it. Just make sure you have vacuum because the life of your turbo depends on it.

What adjustments are reversed? I don't exactly understand what this means. Are you reffering to start duty's and stuff?

I don't know the details of your AVCR so I can't give you all the details, perhaps Daren can help out with this one.

Basically, your EBC controls boost by reducing the amount boost that is passed through the solenoid onto your wastegate, the more the reduction, the longer it takes to overcome the wastegate spring pressure and the higher the boost level. That said, this is only true when the wastegate is a single port actuator that is commonly found on internal wastegates where the pressure is working against the spring.

When a dual port actuator is used, like the ones on external wastegates, the entire picture is different, to understand this you must first understand the inner workings of an external wastegate. Read through this thread about external wastegate setup and follow up with more questions here, it is simply too complicated and too much to type on a Friday night. Have fun reading.

 

[xxraptor660xx]

Most of the time no, I'm surprised your ECU didn't save your ass by triggering fuel cut.

Well it did read 100% inj

 

[daren_p]

Bruce, your pic in #57 is correct. I didn't look/refer to the drawing that was posted in #48. I was refering to his post in #36, which he indicated all the connections correctly but had to switch the hoses around at the WG (which I stated in post #37). At that point, once he switched the WG hoses, his connections should have been the same as your drawing Bruce, other then the pressure source, which while his location isn't ideal, to my knowledge the AVC-R should still function (but may not control as well).

As for the pressure sensor, it doesn't need to be connected off the compressor cover (& would it even see vacuum at this location?) Mine is sourced off the FPR solinoid, with my boost gauge.

xxraptor660xx, have you since swapped the WG lines again, as your setup should still be the same as Bruces pic, (other then the source) which is what I was telling you to do. If you had it connected in this method & when you turned the AVC-R off you saw ~15 psi, your connections were correct. Setting the controller to 1.15 bar does nothing to adjust boost, all this is, is your target you are trying to hit. The boost level is controlled by the duty cycle. You adjust the duty cycle to get your desired boost.

I'm not too sure what your saying in your post in #55 you say it hit 1.25 but then you say you can't hit over 15 psi? 1.25 is still only about 17.8 psi, did you let off when it hit 1.25 or did it hold there? What are your other settings for start duty & FB speed, these can also effect the amount of boost you'll see. If start duty is set above 0 it will raise your boost, ontop of what the duty cycle is set at & depending on FB speed you could just be experiencing a large boost spike. Reset the controller just incase these have been changed. Factory settings will have a start duty of 0 in every gear, F/B speed of 3 & duty @ 20%. These settings will probably still give you around 18 psi. What boost are you trying to run as you may need a smaller base spring if your trying to run less then this?

 

[oldman]

Thank god you showed up because I know nothing of the AVCR. I do have one question, when using Greddy EBC on externals, the adjustments are supposed to be reversed (verified it with Greddy last year and I think the spec 2 has a way on their solenoid to reverse signal) due to the dual port valve setup, doesn't this apply to the AVCR as well?

 

[xxraptor660xx]

Bruce, your pic in #57 is correct. I didn't look/refer to the drawing that was posted in #48. I was refering to his post in #36, which he indicated all the connections correctly but had to switch the hoses around at the WG (which I stated in post #37). At that point, once he switched the WG hoses, his connections should have been the same as your drawing Bruce, other then the pressure source, which while his location isn't ideal, to my knowledge the AVC-R should still function (but may not control as well).

As for the pressure sensor, it doesn't need to be connected off the compressor cover (& would it even see vacuum at this location?) Mine is sourced off the FPR solinoid, with my boost gauge.

xxraptor660xx, have you since swapped the WG lines again, as your setup should still be the same as Bruces pic, (other then the source) which is what I was telling you to do. If you had it connected in this method & when you turned the AVC-R off you saw ~15 psi, your connections were correct. Setting the controller to 1.15 bar does nothing to adjust boost, all this is, is your target you are trying to hit. The boost level is controlled by the duty cycle. You adjust the duty cycle to get your desired boost.

I'm not too sure what your saying in your post in #55 you say it hit 1.25 but then you say you can't hit over 15 psi? 1.25 is still only about 17.8 psi, did you let off when it hit 1.25 or did it hold there? What are your other settings for start duty & FB speed, these can also effect the amount of boost you'll see. If start duty is set above 0 it will raise your boost, ontop of what the duty cycle is set at & depending on FB speed you could just be experiencing a large boost spike. Reset the controller just incase these have been changed. Factory settings will have a start duty of 0 in every gear, F/B speed of 3 & duty @ 20%. These settings will probably still give you around 18 psi. What boost are you trying to run as you may need a smaller base spring if your trying to run less then this?

When I first went WOT after I did these adjustments, the car was boosting to hell. After it hit 1.85 Bar, I released the gas as quick as I could. I went back to my shop, switched the lines at the WG, and It still opens at 15psi. I did initialize all the setting, and duty cycle was at 35%...And I do want to run 18 pounds.

 

[daren_p]

After which adjustments it hit 1.85 bar before you let off? (the first way you had it hooked up in #36?) or was that with the lines switched to be connected like the drawing Bruce did for you? And did you have the AVC-R settings turned on or off?

35% duty will probably still give you more then 18 psi, set the duty to 20% to start with & you should have it connected according to Bruces drawing, these are the proper connections.

Bruce, not sure what you mean with the adjustments are supposed to be reversed for external? Are you just refering to the ports on the solinoid that are used or?

Edit: Wow, missed reading a whole buch of posts in the middle, so my replay may not make sense

Okay, after reading the missing posts, Bruce you don't have to "reverse" any settings on the AVC-R. If its connected how they show you to connect an external in the manuel (same as your drawing) the functions of the head unit are the exact same as if you had the solinoid hooked up using the NO port, like you would with an internal gate. So no "reversion" setting required.

As for 1.85 & doing damage, that all depends on your supporting mods. I was running 1.8-1.85 last time at the track but have the fuel required, dsmlink & meth injection.

If you had the hoses connected up preoperly, like Bruces drawing & saw 15 psi with the boost control turned off, this would be the proper connection of hoses. If this were the case & there was an issue with the solinoid not working properly, you shouldn't overboost as this way of connecting the hoses is basically a fail safe method, in that if for some reason the solinoid loses power or doesn't receive a signal it stays in a position that would cause you to run the same base pressure, no matter how the controller is adjusted. If boost went much to high with it connected correctly, it is probably an issue with the settings in the controller (which you should have resetted by now)


I think we need to start from the begining, it getting to confusing as to how you had it connected & what it hit, etc. You need to connect it up just like Bruces drawing & then confirm the connections with us. Then you need to reset the controller. Next you need to test it with the controller boost settings turned off, then turn the settings on but make sure thei Duty 20%, F/B 3 & Start duty 0 for each gear (which they should be when you reset the controller). Then if you reply with it hit such & such boost we need to know specifics as to if the controller was turned on or off, etc. to give proper advice.

 

[oldman]

Bruce, not sure what you mean with the adjustments are supposed to be reversed for external? Are you just refering to the ports on the solinoid that are used or?

It's pretty simple since you already know how an external work.

On a single port internal wastegate, the signal coming from the controller works against the wastegate spring therefore the weaker the signal (the more the reduction from actual boost) the longer the valve stays shut resulting in higher boost level.

On a dual port external wastegate, the signal (going to the top port) works with the wastegate spring against the actual boost signal (going to the side port) therefore the weaker the signal from the controller, the quicker the valve opens resulting in lower boost level, completely opposite of a single port operation.

My question is how does AVCR know which type of wastegate is being used and adjust accordingly?

I'll give you one example on a unit I belief you used to have, the original PRofec B, Scroll down to the PRofec B SPEC selector setting and you will see different settings for different types of wastegate valve.

 

[daren_p]

It's pretty simple since you already know how an external work.

On a single port internal wastegate, the signal coming from the controller works against the wastegate spring therefore the weaker the signal (the more the reduction from actual boost) the longer the valve stays shut resulting in higher boost level.

On a dual port external wastegate, the signal (going to the top port) works with the wastegate spring against the actual boost signal (going to the side port) therefore the weaker the signal from the controller, the quicker the valve opens resulting in lower boost level, completely opposite of a single port operation.

My question is how does AVCR know which type of wastegate is being used and adjust accordingly?

I'll give you one example on a unit I belief you used to have, the original PRofec B, Scroll down to the PRofec B SPEC selector setting and you will see different settings for different types of wastegate valve.

That would seem to make sense but sounds like your forgetting about the solinoid logic & connections. A solinoid is basically an on/off valve, its either enginerized or not depending on if its receiving power or not. The controller varies the amount of time its in either state to achieve the desired boost level (this is your duty cycle) which is the amount of time the solinoid is activated vs the total amount of time per cycle.

The com port is exactly that a common connection between the two other ports the NC & NO. What this means is the NC port or normally closed doesn't allow air passage from the com port until the solinoid has been energized. Once its energized the port becomes open & passes the air. The NO or normally open port is the exact opposite. This port allows air passage from the com port until the solinoid is energized. Once the solinoid is energized this port no longer passes air from the com. So basically these two ports have an opposite satate of passing air for both the solinoid being energized or not.

So your description of what type of signal is required for each valve operation is correct but being the internal setup is to the NO port while the external is connected NC port, the controller still tells the solinoid to pulse the same amount of time for both types of valve but since their solinoid port operation is reversed to each other, they still receive opposite signals, so no changes to the controller is required. Hope that description helps to make sense?

Edit: After checking out your link. No I had the newer Type S model but by skimming over those instructions it appears the Greddy only has 2 connections on the solinoid vs the 3 connections on the Apexi unit. So this is why you have to tell the Greddy unit what type of WG your using & it inturn changes the solinoid operation, while the apexi you do the same thing when you switch from the NO to NC ports on the solinoid itself.

 

[oldman]

The com port is exactly that a common connection between the two other ports the NC & NO. What this means is the NC port or normally closed doesn't allow air passage from the com port until the solinoid has been energized. Once its energized the port becomes open & passes the air. The NO or normally open port is the exact opposite. This port allows air passage from the com port until the solinoid is energized. Once the solinoid is energized this port no longer passes air from the com. So basically these two ports have an opposite satate of passing air for both the solinoid being energized or not.

So your description of what type of signal is required for each valve operation is correct but being the internal setup is to the NO port while the external is connected NC port, the controller still tells the solinoid to pulse the same amount of time for both types of valve but since their solinoid port operation is reversed to each other, they still receive opposite signals, so no changes to the controller is required. Hope that description helps to make sense?

It makes perfect sense because the newer PRfec's also has 3 ports on the solenoid, I was not aware that AVCR has 3 as well from looking at all the diagrams posted in this thread. This is why I posted this earlier.

when using Greddy EBC on externals, the adjustments are supposed to be reversed (verified it with Greddy last year and I think the spec 2 has a way on their solenoid to reverse signal) due to the dual port valve setup, doesn't this apply to the AVCR as well?

With that said, if you look at the diagram on post #65, he has it connected to the NO instead of NC. I thought it was just a typo all along thinking there are only two ports on the solenoid, COM and NC.

 

[oldman]

So your description of what type of signal is required for each valve operation is correct but being the internal setup is to the NO port while the external is connected NC port, the controller still tells the solinoid to pulse the same amount of time for both types of valve but since their solinoid port operation is reversed to each other, they still receive opposite signals, so no changes to the controller is required. Hope that description helps to make sense?

I thought about it some more, shouldn't it be reversed, NO for (dual port) external and NC for (single port) internal?

 

[98mitsuGSX-SD]

NC is for external wastegates and NO is for internal wastegates. Refer to pages 44-46 of the APEXI installation manual.

 

[daren_p]

I thought about it some more, shouldn't it be reversed, NO for (dual port) external and NC for (single port) internal?

Yes, thats exactly what I thought when I first read it in the instructions but I think there is a reason they are hooked up in this method. I believe its for fail safe operation, like I had mentioned somewhere above. If you have both internal & external hooked up with this method if the solinoid doesn't receive a proper signal from the controller or becomes defective/loses power, the natural state of the solinoid will just cause you to see your spring WG pressure. Now if it was hooked up the opposite way, you would see innfinite boost if the same thing happend, not a good thing. So more then likely as soon as you power the controller up it turns on the solinoid, to have the proper controlling action.

With that said, if you look at the diagram on post #65, he has it connected to the NO instead of NC. I thought it was just a typo all along thinking there are only two ports on the solenoid, COM and NC.

Yes, your right, he has the source hose connected to the wrong port on the solinoid in that drawing & would lead to infinite boost.

Follow Bruces drawing or your drawing is basically correct in #65 but you need to change what port you have the hose connected to on the solinoid to the NC port. I think you can probably get it straightened out now, but if not I can always take some pics of exactly how mine is connected to post, but this is a last resort & will cost you big time !

 

[oldman]

Yes, thats exactly what I thought when I first read it in the instructions but I think there is a reason they are hooked up in this method. I believe its for fail safe operation, like I had mentioned somewhere above. If you have both internal & external hooked up with this method if the solinoid doesn't receive a proper signal from the controller or becomes defective/loses power, the natural state of the solinoid will just cause you to see your spring WG pressure. Now if it was hooked up the opposite way, you would see innfinite boost if the same thing happend, not a good thing. So more then likely as soon as you power the controller up it turns on the solinoid, to have the proper controlling action.

Makes sense but that would also means COM is not just a straight connection, it has to be manipulated (bled off) signal or else you'll get infinite boost when the solenoid is activated.

 

[daren_p]

Makes sense but that would also means COM is not just a straight connection, it has to be manipulated (bled off) signal or else you'll get infinite boost when the solenoid is activated.

No, if this is the case (solinoid energizes on turn on), that seems to make sense. Com would flow through NC port for external hookup (holding external gate closed) & NO would be closed so no boost leak & keep the internal flapper closed. Then the controller just pulses the solinoid off & back on again to achieve the desired boost level, just as I explained earlier.

 

[oldman]

No, if this is the case (solinoid energizes on turn on), that seems to make sense. Com would flow through NC port for external hookup (holding external gate closed) & NO would be closed so no boost leak & keep the internal flapper closed. Then the controller just pulses the solinoid off & back on again to achieve the desired boost level.

So the solenoid is just a simple on and off device and the controls in the main unit simply uses the pressure signal from the pressure sender as reference, then calculate when to turn the solenoid on and off. Thank you Daren, now I know how the AVCR work.

 

[daren_p]

So the solenoid is just a simple on and off device and the controls in the main unit simply uses the pressure signal from the pressure sender as reference, then calculate when to turn the solenoid on and off. Thank you Daren, now I know how the AVCR work.

Yep, you got it a solinoid is just a simple on/off device with a bunch of fancy control from a head unit. Yes the controller can just use the pressure sensor to control the solinoid on/off operation (or duty cycle) in automatic or you can manually adjust your duty cycle (turn the auto control off, which is what I do) so you can have complete control over exactly how the boost curve looks. And the ability to tap into the pressure sensor & log it on DSMlink (without having to buy an additional GM MAP sensor) is awsome.

I would recommend this controller to anyone who wants perfect boost control. Now I see less then a 1psi spike on spool up, usually like .5 psi vs the 3 psi I use to see with a MBC & the boost varies maybe .5 psi all the way to redline. No more worrying about boost drop off or non stable boost. Plus the gear based, automatic boost control is the best feature to have on an EBC for us poor fwd's. We have enough other things to worry about at the track, without having to worry about pushing a button for a higher boost level once we hook .

All EBC's that use a solinoid will operate in this same fashion, the other method some use for control would be a stepper motor, which would be proportional control instead of on/off.

 

[oldman]

I would recommend this controller to anyone who wants perfect boost control. Now I see less then a 1psi spike on spool up, usually like .5 psi vs the 3 psi I use to see with a MBC & the boost varies maybe .5 psi all the way to redline. No more worrying about boost drop off or non stable boost. Plus the gear based, automatic boost control is the best feature to have on an EBC for us poor fwd's. We have enough other things to worry about at the track, without having to worry about pushing a button for a higher boost level once we hook .

I see absolutely no boost spike with my Hallman EVO RX pro MBC and also about .5 psi variation to 8.5k rpm, even with the additional cost of my GM 3bar, it's still much cheaper than your AVCR.

 

[daren_p]

I see absolutely no boost spike with my Hallman EVO RX pro MBC and also about .5 psi variation to 8.5k rpm, even with the additional cost of my GM 3bar, it's still much cheaper than your AVCR.

Ya I could never get that lucky with the MBC's I tried. They worked but for me the AVC works so much better with controlling spikes & having the boost almost dead flat through the whole pull. Even running directly off my Tiall 44 wouldn't give me a flat boost reading. I guess I just must be special

 

[98mitsuGSX-SD]

It took 4 pages and 2 wisemen to finally solve the great EBC and external WG debate. Wow, so what's next on the agenda?

 

[oldman]

I guess I just must be special

You just like fancy stuff. In reality, slight boost spike and/or variation is really irrelevant and nothing to be worrying over.

 

[daren_p]

It took 4 pages and 2 wisemen to finally solve the great EBC and external WG debate. Wow, so what's next on the agenda?

& we still don't know if its solved, where is that OP anyways

You just like fancy stuff. In reality, slight boost spike and/or variation is really irrelevant and nothing to be worrying over

Ya, I know but seeing 24-25 psi for the first 1000 rpms after spool (my peak cylinder pressure area for my 1X cams) & then dropping to 21 psi was less then ideal, as the higher boost was in exactly the area I didn't need it & the top end felt weak. Adjusting the MBC to see 23-24psi or so in the top end required an initial boost level of like 27-28 psi for ~1000 rpm, which I didn't like or neither did pump gas. Even 22 psi across the board upon initial AVC-R install made the car feel much stronger. Anything above that now is just gravy now

 

[xxraptor660xx]

Ok, I just went on the Apexi website and read the instructions for you and this is how it should be hooked. http://www.apexi-usa.com/pdfInstallation/45.pdf

The line going to the turbo is the outlet pipe. You said I have to tap into it?

 

[oldman]

Ya, I know but seeing 24-25 psi for the first 1000 rpms after spool (my peak cylinder pressure area for my 1X cams) & then dropping to 21 psi was less then ideal, as the higher boost was in exactly the area I didn't need it & the top end felt weak. Adjusting the MBC to see 23-24psi or so in the top end required an initial boost level of like 27-28 psi for ~1000 rpm, which I didn't like or neither did pump gas. Even 22 psi across the board upon initial AVC-R install made the car feel much stronger. Anything above that now is just gravy now

I suspect that was the case with your internally gated EVO3, if so, I don't think you will see that kind of spike with your 3052/Tial 44.