LM-1 log advice and some q's

[LRS95TSI]

so i've been logging my car here lately...
here is a log that i did the other night (clutch was slipping slighty, but haven't figure out why, since it's almost new!)
i have an evo3 16g, 680cc inj, fp1i,fp2e, 20psi falling slightly.
afc settings:
1000: -17
1600: -17
2400: -12
2600: -14
3000: -16
3600: -32
4200: -35
5000: -41
5600: -41
6400: -41
6600: -41
7200: -41

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i know i need to lean it out up top. i will provide a pocketlogger log with this current fuel setting.

the questions i have are:
1. i don't understand why i need the lm-1 to take as many samples as it does. i don't like it because it will read a certain rpm and then go above below above and below in rpms again from that given rpm. is there any way to make it so it only samples so many times or something of that configuration?
2. is the true airflow correction 1/(1-afc% setting at given rpm)?
3. what is the best way to find out if your turbo is getting old and needs to be replaced? i know shaft play, but can you tell by logging any certain parameter?
4. in the lower rpm range it seems when i first go wot my afr is always reading really lean like 12-14.1....is this normal?

 

[spyderturbo007]

1.) Wow, that's really weird. Almost like the rpm signal you are feeding the WB is screwed up. Do you see the same think on the logger?

2.) No, but close. I'm lazy so I'll just copy and paste from thread below yours where I wrote this yesterday, hint, hint.

P / (1 -S) = A

Where:

P = Peak airflow displayed on logger
S = SAFC correction factor in decimal form at Ne Point of peak airflow
A = Actual airflow.

3.) I guess you could always take a look at airflow, and see if there are any flat spots or severe drop off's. But airflow changes could be cause by a variety of things. If your turbo doesn't have any shaft play, other than what's normal and doesn't smoke, what would make you think something is wrong with it?

4.) It will be until the ECU "sees" WOT and bumps you to open loop. The top of your log looks completely normal. See how it's bouncing around 14.7:1?

At idle and cruise you are running in closed loop. Meaning it's a closed loop between the ECU and the front O2 sensor. During closed loop, the ECU attempts to keep the AFR at 14.7:1 and you will see your front O2 voltage bouncing from about 0.2v to 0.8v. So you are going to see the same bouncing on the WBO2.


EDIT -> I did just noticed that your clutch was slipping, which may be the cause of the screwy rpm readings.

 

[LRS95TSI]

as far as the screwy rpm's it's always been this way with the rpm converter...before the clutch slipped, i connected the rpm converter just as the manual said and got the correct indications and feedback from it, so i assumed everything was running correctly.

the oscillating rpms makes it hard to read what i need to change because i have to look all over the log to identify 3-5 of the same rpm range. where as my logger only has 1 reading of an rpm, my wb has 3-5 readings of the same rpm!

yea i understood about the beginning of the log that it would show what cruising afr shows because it is switching like you said...i guess more specifically i'm interested in the 2250-23xx rpm range where its in the higher 11.x's.

also, i am curious about my timing issues that i've always had...consistently i get between 5-10 deg of timing in the middle rpm range and not much better up top. i replaced my knock sensor to get rid of that possibility and i did a thorough boost leak check not too long ago. it seems no matter what afr i am my timing doesn't go up.

what things can i do to check to see why the timing is off? i know i need to get the afr's lined out a little better, but could i run race gas, or override the knock sensor? and if so, what will these do for me...obviously my timing is due to knock, but if i get my afr's correct around 11.1-11.3, i don't understand my timing is 12 deg or more.

sorry for the specific issues, but i've been around long enough to realize what easy fixes i could do and need a little more in depth advice.

 

[spyderturbo007]

as far as the screwy rpm's it's always been this way with the rpm converter...before the clutch slipped, i connected the rpm converter just as the manual said and got the correct indications and feedback from it, so i assumed everything was running correctly.

You are going to have to help me out with this one, since I'm not sure what you mean by an rpm converter. Is that something to do with the LM-1?

the oscillating rpms makes it hard to read what i need to change because i have to look all over the log to identify 3-5 of the same rpm range. where as my logger only has 1 reading of an rpm, my wb has 3-5 readings of the same rpm!

That's a tough one, but I would definately get the bouncing tach signal taken car of, since it's going to make your job a lot easier. What are you using to capture the log? Does the LM-1 have a 0 - 5 V analog output?

yea i understood about the beginning of the log that it would show what cruising afr shows because it is switching like you said...i guess more specifically i'm interested in the 2250-23xx rpm range where its in the higher 11.x's.

I'm guessing this was a 3rd gear pull? If so, I really wouldn't worry about it unless you are seeing a timing pull on the logger. It's most likely the ECU responding to you going WOT, since I see that you aren't pulling much fuel in the 2.5k region. Since you don't go WOT at 2.5k in 3rd gear, I wouldn't worry about it.

also, i am curious about my timing issues that i've always had...consistently i get between 5-10 deg of timing in the middle rpm range and not much better up top. i replaced my knock sensor to get rid of that possibility and i did a thorough boost leak check not too long ago. it seems no matter what afr i am my timing doesn't go up.

Do you have a pocketlogger? Can you get a log of this with airflow, O2, timing and rpm during a 3rd gear pull? Also, before you make the pull, verify that your TPS reads 90+ % at WOT and take a look at your IAT and coolant temp (on the logger, not the gauge)

what things can i do to check to see why the timing is off?

With a 2g and not having DSMLink, you really can't other than verifying the timing marks. It's most likely another problem that's causing the timing problems, but it doesn't hurt to check the marks.

i know i need to get the afr's lined out a little better, but could i run race gas, or override the knock sensor? and if so, what will these do for me...obviously my timing is due to knock, but if i get my afr's correct around 11.1-11.3, i don't understand my timing is 12 deg or more.

Noooo.....don't ever think about trying to get around the knock sensor again or I'll have to get out the beat stick.

Anyway, the knock sensor is there for your protection. Did you torque the new sensor to spec?

sorry for the specific issues, but i've been around long enough to realize what easy fixes i could do and need a little more in depth advice.

No problem.

 

[LRS95TSI]

the rpm converter is basically a box that you can buy with the lm-1 that connects to the tach signal of the ecu and inputs into the lm-1's logs.

i don't know about the volt thing your talking about. but i do know where your going with that, and i'd like to keep the wb readings separate from my logger readings. just a personal preference.

the lower leaness in the rpm range makes since from your description so i will leave that alone.

yea i have a pocketlogger, and as stated above i will def get a log from 3rd gear, but why would you want o2 when i have a wb? just to cross reference? as far as coolant temps, i believe i'm between 201-206 driving because i checked them the other day. however when i'm stopped they go up to 210-213...

as far as diagnosing knock and timing, i guess i mean't if i run race gas for a week and log it will the race gas help me determine what is causing the knock or if its not crucial?

and for the tuning purposes, are my ne points ok, or do they need to be changed...i would honestly like to have a couple more in the middle rpm range, but do i have them set to a standard?

once again, thanks! as far as logs, i'll try to get another one today or tom, it's hard here, because there aren't too many roads to do it on, and i don't like to do them with other cars on the road.

 

[spyderturbo007]

Ah, I'm not familiar with the LM-1, so maybe someone else can jump in and tell you if theirs does the same thing.

As for wanting O2 with the log, it's just a normal thing I'm used to asking since most people I help don't have a WBO2. It's kind of a programmed response. You can drop it since we can correlate between the two logs and pick up some samples / second on the logger.

Running race gas was what I was going to suggest if we couldn't pin point the source of the knock. But let's take a look at the log before you go doing that. Maybe we can save you some money, since I know that stuff isn't cheap.

Ne Points are subjective, but I like to have a couple extra just after I reach full spool, which seems to be the most common place for me to knock. You can set them however you like, there isn't a standard practice.

I always advocate being safe when making a pull. Personally, I do it about 1am on a Tuesday when everyone is home in bed and the roads are clear. I normally use an expressway on ramp and start the pull there. That way I don't have to worry about Grandma cutting me off.

 

[LRS95TSI]

i'll try to find some lm-1 forums and post there about those issues.

i'll drop the o2 reading on the logger and do rpm, timing, airflow (keep the samples/sec up!)

i'll do race gas after i post a log and get the afr's exact, then i know i have no choice but to run race gas.

i hear ya! i usually go down a road that's 3 lanes wide and not busy during the night, but cops here of late patrol it! so i have to revert to going down near my university and making some pulls on a unused road. nonetheless i don't like to bother people with my loud car and/or endanger others/myself.


ok so here's another question. sometimes i get rpm readings from my wb that don't match up with a specific ne point, but are in between 2...do i change both ne points or 1 or the other? ex: i have 5000 and 5600 as ne points, if i get a reading of 10.9 @ 5300 do i change both points?

 

[spyderturbo007]

ok so here's another question. sometimes i get rpm readings from my wb that don't match up with a specific ne point, but are in between 2...do i change both ne points or 1 or the other? ex: i have 5000 and 5600 as ne points, if i get a reading of 10.9 @ 5300 do i change both points?

That's a tough one. The SAFC uses a linear extrapolation between two points. So, for example, if your 5k Ne point is -20% and your 5.6k Ne Point is -22%, then the correction for 5.3k is going to be -21%.

If you do decide to try and correct for "in-between" AFR readings, be aware that you are going to change the readings between the next two Ne Points.

I wouldn't bother with trying to be exact, because you can drive yourself up a wall by trying to over-tune. Logs will fluctuate with environmental conditions, seasonal changes in fuel mixtures, blah, blah. So you don't want to get caught up making a ton of adjustments all the time. You need to find a nice balance. Go for a slightly conservative tune and stick with it.

 

[LRS95TSI]

ok that makes sense...

i'm going to try and get my afr's as close to 11.1 across the board...

here's my next couple of q's

1. the weather in my area fluctuates pretty easily, when it get's colder you run leaner and when it gets hotter you runner richer, meaning add fuel when its cold, and take out fuel when its hot?

2. the leaner you go on the afc and your afr's the more timing advance you will recieve correct? ex: if i do get the car tuned on 11.1 and my timing is good but not high enough, i would want to take a little more fuel out but remain in a safe and comfortable afr correct?

thanks!

 

[LRS95TSI]

here is my log today...
95 deg weather, 102 intake temps, 206 coolant temps
WELCOME TO MY TUNING HELL!

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my car is sputtering every now and then especially up top...i just didn't realize my timing could get that terrible...it has always been bad.

what i can't figure out is how im flowing 35 lbs/min which equals 350hp right? my car feels like i could run faster!

please help!!!

 

[spyderturbo007]

1. the weather in my area fluctuates pretty easily, when it get's colder you run leaner and when it gets hotter you runner richer, meaning add fuel when its cold, and take out fuel when its hot?

Not really, the MAS will determine the mass of the air and adjust fuel delivery to compensate. So when it's hotter out and the air is less dense the ECU will drop fuel delivery, and vise versa for when it's cold out.

2. the leaner you go on the afc and your afr's the more timing advance you will recieve correct? ex: if i do get the car tuned on 11.1 and my timing is good but not high enough, i would want to take a little more fuel out but remain in a safe and comfortable afr correct?

thanks!

That is a very good question. Yes, the more negative you go on the SAFC, the less airflow you are "showing" the ECU. The lower the airflow seen by the ECU, the higher it will advance timing. It's safer to run a lot of timing on low airflow than it is to run it with high airflow. I'll cover the other part of this question when I respond to your log.

 

[spyderturbo007]

here is my log today...
95 deg weather, 102 intake temps, 206 coolant temps
WELCOME TO MY TUNING HELL!

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

my car is sputtering every now and then especially up top...i just didn't realize my timing could get that terrible...it has always been bad.

what i can't figure out is how im flowing 35 lbs/min which equals 350hp right? my car feels like i could run faster!

please help!!!

Yikes!! Something is wrong here. Your timing should be much higher than that. Have you done a leak check? How old are your plugs, wires and fuel filter? What plug gap are you running.

First off, your timing drop is really late which probably means you are spooling late. Am I correct? As for AFR, it is possible that your car doesn't like an AFR of 11:1. Every car is different, so you might have to shoot for something like 10.8:1. Is it possible that your WBO2 is out of calibration? If you make another pull, throw O2 voltage on there just for sh$ts and giggles.

EDIT -> Another thing you might want to look into is fuel delivery. At an AFR of 11:1 and a boost pressure of 20psi, the 190lph FP can support a maximum of 38.62lbs/min of airflow. As Steve pointed out to me, this is the maximum airflow supported at the pump outlet.

Not at the end of 6 ft worth of 3/8" tube and a factory filter.

So you could be maxing out your FP. You said that the timing has sucked for awhile.....Was that before your turbo upgrade?

 

[LRS95TSI]

morning poster eh!!

my plugs are brand new ngk bpr7es gapped at .28
wires are accel thundersports, i've had them for about 20k miles (should i get knew ones?)
i've never changed the fuel filter so i may need to look into that (install on here?)

i am spooling late, it used to be a gradual spool and then kick in...now its like i spool but it doesn't necessarily start to take off and then all the sudden it just bam goes.

i did a pretty good boost leak (or what i thought was a good one) just a month or so ago, and everything was fine(IM, tb, ic pipes, bov, inj,j-pipe, pretty much everything.)

my compression of about 4 months ago was 165 across the board (probably need to check this again).

as for the fuel pump, i've seen many run a 190 with no problems, i believe canadiantsi was running an evo3 above 20 psi on a non rewired 190 with no issues, but like you say each car is different.

i had this same exact setup on my other dsm before i got this one...minus the cams and fmic, and was get 19-21 deg of timing up top with a steady increase in the midrange.

HELP!

 

[spyderturbo007]

Sorry for taking so long to get back to you, but I've been very busy. Anyway, everything looks good and I'm kindof stumped, but there are a couple things you can try. Might want to invest in some OEM plug wires. I have heard some bad things about non-oem wires, but I really hesistate to have you start throwing money at the car.

I would suggest that you rewire your FP though because you are getting close to it's limits. Another thing I would suggest you try is droping the tune to something richer just to check. Or you can go ahead and drop in a couple gallons of race gas when your tank is almost empty.

 

[LRS95TSI]

i understand about being busy..

1. is there a way to test your plug wires for condition and effectiveness? i have accel thundersports with about 30k miles on them, does mileage tell you anything.

2. i don't have a problem re-wiring my fp, but for right now, i know that enough fuel is provided, so i'd rather stick with other areas of problems.

3. if i run race gas, what can that tell me? is there any draw backs to running race gas besides the price? can i damage anything?

4. dropping it to a richer tune? how about lowering the boost?

 

[spyderturbo007]

i understand about being busy..

1. is there a way to test your plug wires for condition and effectiveness? i have accel thundersports with about 30k miles on them, does mileage tell you anything.

Not that I'm aware of. As for mileage, that's tricky too. I'm not sure what the recommended service interval is according to Mitsubishi and most manufacturers are all over the place. Some say 15k, some 30k and others 50k.

2. i don't have a problem re-wiring my fp, but for right now, i know that enough fuel is provided, so i'd rather stick with other areas of problems.

That's up to you.

3. if i run race gas, what can that tell me? is there any draw backs to running race gas besides the price? can i damage anything?

It will help us determine if you are getting phantom knock or not. If the timing is still jacked, we can eliminate that potential problem. If I remember correctly, you installed a new knock sensor, but you just never know. You won't hurt anything running a couple gallons of race gas here or there. Unleaded race gas will never hurt anything, but you can damage the O2 sensor with leaded race gas. It's not like you are going to kill the O2 by running a little leaded race gas one time.

4. dropping it to a richer tune? how about lowering the boost?

You could do that also, but that's not as much fun.

 

[LRS95TSI]

ok, i believe my next couple of steps will be:
1. flushing my coolant with a new mix 70/30, and changing my oil (just because i need to!)
2. logging my car one more time with o2, and coolant temps during a pull.
3. to apply race gas (110 octane?), and do another log with timing, rpm, airflow.

question:
If you look at my log with airflow attached, does it seem high indicating a boost leak, or any other area of my logs indicate a possible leak somewhere? i've done checks and never been able to find one. if i am truly flowing 35 lbs/min up top why does the car still feel so slow? i know my timing is just ridiculous but even with that timing my airflow seems decent? am i correct, or mistaken?

 

[spyderturbo007]

ok, i believe my next couple of steps will be:
1. flushing my coolant with a new mix 70/30, and changing my oil (just because i need to!)
2. logging my car one more time with o2, and coolant temps during a pull.
3. to apply race gas (110 octane?), and do another log with timing, rpm, airflow.

question:
If you look at my log with airflow attached, does it seem high indicating a boost leak, or any other area of my logs indicate a possible leak somewhere? i've done checks and never been able to find one. if i am truly flowing 35 lbs/min up top why does the car still feel so slow? i know my timing is just ridiculous but even with that timing my airflow seems decent? am i correct, or mistaken?

I got your PM, sorry for taking so long, but I've been traveling way to freakin' much for work lately. The last hotel I was in didn't even have internet access.

Anyway, 35lbs/min seems a little high to me at 20psi, but that's based on my experience. Others may have been able to get higher airflow numbers, but I haven't.....yet. Running 21psi on my setup, I'm pulling about 33.5lbs/min. When you do the leak check, how long does it take to bleed down?

You can pretty much get whatever race gas you want, leaded or unleaded. Unless your O2 sensor is new, 1 tank of leaded gas isn't going to kill it, well at least it shouldn't.

 

[DirtyBirdRacing]

1. is there a way to test your plug wires for condition and effectiveness? i have accel thundersports with about 30k miles on them, does mileage tell you anything.

Hi,

I have never actually done this, but couldnt you use a multimeter to check the resistance of the plug wire, since I believe the resistance of the plug wire and the insulation around it is all that matters. If it has a low enough resistance and the insulation and ends look good then it should be ok I would think.

Bill