In the last session of the last day of the last race event of the season...

[Slow old poop]

... we broke the timing belt. Well, we had planned to put it up for the winter and freshen it anyway. *sigh*

The car ran pretty good at Road America during the F-Body Event (used to be SpeedSeekers). I was running in the Advanced group, and I'm about 5psi of boost away from keeping up with the modded Z06es, lightweight M3s, Mallet Corvettes and other really high-horsepower cars that just eat me up on the straights.

We've been sorting this car all summer, and finally seem to have all the little problems fixed. We welded up the intercooler twice (4 welds required) to fix boost leaks, replaced the silicon intercooler hose connections, and did the relief valve mod on the oil filter to make it stop blowing oil filters at 120 psi oil pressure.

I run 20 psi boost, and the car is supposed to be tuned for 29 psi. We've never managed to get it up to 29 psi because of all the boost leaks and oil filter problems. Maybe next year.

We still have a few problems, so if any road racers care to step in and offer advice, it shall be most welcome:

1. We blew out the gasket between the manifold and turbo. The previous owner had the same problem, so we replaced it with the titanium (?) gasket from Road Race Engineering. Alas, it blew too. So, to keep the car running all weekend, we put it together without the gasket. It held 20 psi on Sunday, but running without a gasket is not a good solution. Anybody got any ideas on how to make that gasket live longer than five track days?

2. I cracked three Stoptech rotors this weekend (two new ones and a spare). Road America is tough on brakes, what with the three long straights and braking from 125-135 mph at 1, 5 and Canada Corner. What's the cure? Upgrade the rears to distribute the braking better? Cool the brakes better? I get no fade or boiled fluid, so I didn't think I had a cooling problem. However, when I came in once to the pit lane after going two wheels off, the brakes were smoking. I am running Carbotech Panther Plus pads, which work very well, Motul, SS lines, and the Stoptechs. Whaddaya think? Is it the heat that's cracking the rotors? Or something else?

3. As noted above, we broke the timing belt (new this spring). Upon inspection, we see that the upper corner of the plastic timing belt guard melted, and may have gotten into the timing belt. We haven't torn it apart to determine the exact cause, but melting the plastic cover is not a good thing in any case. I am running a 20G Frank turbo, and we have the aluminum heat shield in place. Any thoughts on how to protect/replace the plastic belt guard?

4. Although the car handles quite well, observers note that it has a bit of body roll. I am running 235/17 Toyo Proxes, Ground Control, Konis and strut braces front and rear, but I don't think it has upgraded sway bars. They look stock. Whaddaya think? Put in bigger sway bars? Or is body roll OK on a DSM? I can stay with most cars through the twisty bits, but a race-prepped 928 on Hoosiers was eating my lunch through the Carousel. I could see the 928 sticking like glue through there and gaining 100 ft on me, which took me an entire lap to get back.

5. Somewhat related to Q #2 is my pad knockback problem. In another thread elsewhere, we discussed pad knockback (where the rotor flexes a little in a hard turn and pushes the caliper pistons back, so the first time you hit the brakes the pedal goes to the floor). We've replaced the front hubs, and it improved the situation to the point where it only takes one pump to get the pedal pressure back up. What's next? What can I do now to eliminate pad knockback entirely?

By the bye, the DSM road race scene in the Midwest is picking up.
There were three DSMs at Road America -- mine and two mostly stockers -- and many people stopped by to ogle my little blue Eclipse and ask questions. Might have made a few converts this weekend.

Rich
1990 Eclipse GSX

 

[Greg Collier]

... we broke the timing belt. Well, we had planned to put it up for the winter and freshen it anyway. *sigh*

We replace the belt pulleys and tensioner before each season and it seems to take the abuse.

1. We blew out the gasket between the manifold and turbo. The previous owner had the same problem, so we replaced it with the titanium (?) gasket from Road Race Engineering. Alas, it blew too. So, to keep the car running all weekend, we put it together without the gasket. It held 20 psi on Sunday, but running without a gasket is not a good solution. Anybody got any ideas on how to make that gasket live longer than five track days?

Had the same problem the first year we ran until we changed to an EVO exhaust maifold and made a bracket that holds the after market down-pipe to the engine block.

2. I cracked three Stoptech rotors this weekend (two new ones and a spare). Road America is tough on brakes, what with the three long straights and braking from 125-135 mph at 1, 5 and Canada Corner. What's the cure? Upgrade the rears to distribute the braking better? Cool the brakes better? I get no fade or boiled fluid, so I didn't think I had a cooling problem. However, when I came in once to the pit lane after going two wheels off, the brakes were smoking. I am running Carbotech Panther Plus pads, which work very well, Motul, SS lines, and the Stoptechs. Whaddaya think? Is it the heat that's cracking the rotors? Or something else?

Are you running the drilled rotors? The drilled ones have a tendency to crack.

3. As noted above, we broke the timing belt (new this spring). Upon inspection, we see that the upper corner of the plastic timing belt guard melted, and may have gotten into the timing belt. We haven't torn it apart to determine the exact cause, but melting the plastic cover is not a good thing in any case. I am running a 20G Frank turbo, and we have the aluminum heat shield in place. Any thoughts on how to protect/replace the plastic belt guard?

We went through two plastic guards and eventually fabricated an aluminum one.

4. Although the car handles quite well, observers note that it has a bit of body roll. I am running 235/17 Toyo Proxes, Ground Control, Konis and strut braces front and rear, but I don't think it has upgraded sway bars. They look stock. Whaddaya think? Put in bigger sway bars? Or is body roll OK on a DSM? I can stay with most cars through the twisty bits, but a race-prepped 928 on Hoosiers was eating my lunch through the Carousel. I could see the 928 sticking like glue through there and gaining 100 ft on me, which took me an entire lap to get back.

We're running JIC's with success, a 1-1/4" "Mitsubishi race" anti-roll bar and 1-1/2" rear strut bar. We also run RRE max camber plates and strut tower bar and stock front sway bar. Car drives like a front wheel dive Porsche.

5. Somewhat related to Q #2 is my pad knockback problem. In another thread elsewhere, we discussed pad knockback (where the rotor flexes a little in a hard turn and pushes the caliper pistons back, so the first time you hit the brakes the pedal goes to the floor). We've replaced the front hubs, and it improved the situation to the point where it only takes one pump to get the pedal pressure back up. What's next? What can I do now to eliminate pad knockback entirely?

Haven't had this problem...

We had many DNF's the first season we ran. It was a matter of time, a lot of different setups, and of course money that generated our first success...

Greg

 

[Slow old poop]

>We replace the belt pulleys and tensioner before each season and it seems to take the abuse.

We replaced everything this spring.

>Had the same problem the first year we ran until we changed to an EVO exhaust maifold and made a bracket that holds the after market down-pipe to the engine block.

Got a photo of the bracket? Or can you describe it? My DP is leaking a little, so maybe it's time to replace it. Got a suggestion?

>Are you running the drilled rotors? The drilled ones have a tendency to crack.

No, the slotted ones. The cracks start at the outside edge and work in.

>We went through two plastic guards and eventually fabricated an aluminum one.

Do you sell them? We thought about fabbing up an aluminum one, but it seems like a very complex box.

>We're running JIC's with success, a 1-1/4" "Mitsubishi race" anti-roll bar and 1-1/2" rear strut bar. We also run RRE max camber plates and strut tower bar and stock front sway bar. Car drives like a front wheel dive Porsche.

I have the strut braces and camber plates and, apparently, the same stock front sway bar. Where did you get the "1-1/4" "Mitsubishi race" anti-roll bar"? Is that the same as the rear sway bar?

>Haven't had this problem...

Think it has something to do with the AWD? You run FWD, right? Could it be the extra weight up front?

>We had many DNF's the first season we ran. It was a matter of time, a lot of different setups, and of course money that generated our first success...

I hope to learn from you. Thanks for your help.

Rich

 

[Greg Collier]

Rich

Check out my gallery for the photo of the DP bracket. I got so many requests I put one up.

If you feel you can repair the down-pipe it's your call. I'd get a new one.

I'm surprised that a non-drilled rotor is cracking. E-mail "Matt Weiss" at Stop Tech and let him know. I'm sure he'll have some answers. I'm running Porterfields because I got a case of them in a sponsorship, my next choice would be Hawk Blues.

I fabricated the guard and a cam sprocket cover (lost that in an engine fire). I should go into business and sell them because everybody asks where I got them from. I should, but I don't have the time...

John Mueller from RRE set up my suspension. The anti-roll (rear sway bar) that I have, is the only one of two or three that Mitsubishi made, according to him...

As far as the pad knock, yes I'm front wheel drive but, a friend of mine, "Scot Gray" is AWD with over 400 plus hp and Stop Techs without any pad knock to my knowledge. He has put his car through some major track braking without problems. (Calif Speedway for one)

Greg

 

[GreenGSX]

1. The blown turbo gasket most likely came from loose turbo bolts. The bolts get loose, a leak forms, and the gasket gets so hot that it fails. A good fix for this is to get 4 new turbo bolts and 8 2g turbo bolt washers. Add to that a good strap to tie the downpipe to the block and you should be all set.

2. It sounds like you need brake cooling ducts or a switch to a different pad compound. Maybe the Hawk HT-10's?

3. I've melted a cover before but that was because I forgot to put the bolts on the top cover back in.

4. A little roll isn't anything to worry about. I have the RM rear bar with a stock front bar and I've been very happy with that combo.

5. Get in the habit of checking or "pumping" the brake pedal with your left foot before you get to the turn. That will give you time to save your ass in the event of a brake failure by letting you know before you run out of road. I'm going to go back to #2 and say you need to improve your brake cooling and get on a set of more hard core track pads.

Good luck...

 

[stealthTT]

I do most of Rich's installs and tuning and I go with him to events to fix what he breaks.

The gasket was looked at by an engineer with metal experience that happen to be at Road America. He thinks the gasket had too tight of tolerances around the bolt holes. He said it looked like heat and pressure caused the gasket to expand. Once it ran into the threads of the bolts it was stopped. This caused stress to the gasket along a plane that won't handle much stress and it cracked. Then it blew out under pressure. It makes sense because the crack was right at the rear two bolt boles and the metal edge was deformed and had thread marks in it. He wants to make one out of better metal and more room to expand.

3 of the 4 bolts were loose. The 4th bolt was completely tight (seems odd). We will try the new bolts, washers, maybe some sort of lock washers and a downpipe bracket. Any suggestions on lock washers? And is the evo housing that much better?

The brake check idea is a good suggestion and I see few people use it on the course. But Rich does that even when he has great brakes. That was one of the first things he taught me when instructing me. However, he now has to apply a much stronger check of the brakes. And he needs to get the problem fixed so he doesn't have to worry about not having brakes. His lap times will drop considerably and even more important he'll be able to enjoy driving more.

We're going to look at the whole exhaust system this winter. It has too many bends and bad welds I've seen the pics of your bracket and I had planned on something similar during the winter buildup. We'll probably weld up our own exhaust. We have a friend that is a great fabricator. He wants to make the timing belt covers for Rich as well. Maybe we'll sell them.

If all goes well, I'll be able to tear into Rich's car Thursday and see what caused the timing belt to fail and what all it damaged. The spark plugs weren't damaged and looking into the holes I didn't see any holes, but I'm sure there's damage.

While looking at it at the race track, someone mentioned building a 2.4L motor. Anyone care to weigh in? The extra torque would be nice at low rpms in 3rd gear. Or is that motor a bad idea for road racing? I'll have to do some research.

Also, Rich just bought a dsmlink Thursday. We were battling some mild knock that we couldn't fix with the SAFC until we put in the 110 octane. It's going to be sooo nice to finally have some better control.

Sorry for the long post, Mike.

 

[Slow old poop]

Yes, as I have freely admitted in the past, I couldn't do this without Mike's help and expertise. I also appreciate the help of my other friends who have wrenched, fabbed parts, and pushed my cars onto trailers after I break them. I try to make up for it by buying lots of beer and ribs.

If there are any Midwest DSMers out there, you are welcome to share our little corner of the paddock at Road America, MidAmerica, BlackHawk and other tracks. Maybe we can all help each other out. After all, it's us against them, and the Z06es, M3s and 911s have a head start and factory support. All I have is this list and my friends. That should be enough, I figure.

By the bye, about the expanding gasket theory: I always thought that when an object expanded, all dimensions expanded. Therefore, the holes would get bigger, not smaller. Maybe that doesn't apply to a gasket that is trapped in an enclosed space.

Rich

 

[GreenGSX]

I do most of Rich's installs and tuning and I go with him to events to fix what he breaks.

The gasket was looked at by an engineer with metal experience that happen to be at Road America. He thinks the gasket had too tight of tolerances around the bolt holes. He said it looked like heat and pressure caused the gasket to expand. Once it ran into the threads of the bolts it was stopped. This caused stress to the gasket along a plane that won't handle much stress and it cracked. Then it blew out under pressure. It makes sense because the crack was right at the rear two bolt boles and the metal edge was deformed and had thread marks in it. He wants to make one out of better metal and more room to expand.

3 of the 4 bolts were loose. The 4th bolt was completely tight (seems odd). We will try the new bolts, washers, maybe some sort of lock washers and a downpipe bracket. Any suggestions on lock washers? And is the evo housing that much better?

The brake check idea is a good suggestion and I see few people use it on the course. But Rich does that even when he has great brakes. That was one of the first things he taught me when instructing me. However, he now has to apply a much stronger check of the brakes. And he needs to get the problem fixed so he doesn't have to worry about not having brakes. His lap times will drop considerably and even more important he'll be able to enjoy driving more.

We're going to look at the whole exhaust system this winter. It has too many bends and bad welds I've seen the pics of your bracket and I had planned on something similar during the winter buildup. We'll probably weld up our own exhaust. We have a friend that is a great fabricator. He wants to make the timing belt covers for Rich as well. Maybe we'll sell them.

If all goes well, I'll be able to tear into Rich's car Thursday and see what caused the timing belt to fail and what all it damaged. The spark plugs weren't damaged and looking into the holes I didn't see any holes, but I'm sure there's damage.

While looking at it at the race track, someone mentioned building a 2.4L motor. Anyone care to weigh in? The extra torque would be nice at low rpms in 3rd gear. Or is that motor a bad idea for road racing? I'll have to do some research.

Also, Rich just bought a dsmlink Thursday. We were battling some mild knock that we couldn't fix with the SAFC until we put in the 110 octane. It's going to be sooo nice to finally have some better control.

Sorry for the long post, Mike.

From what you've said about the bolts I really think that the gasket failed because the turbo got loose. I wouldn't use lock washers. The only ones I would use are the 2g ones. They are concave with a dot on one side. You use two per bolt with the cup sides facing each other. Use those with new turbo bolts and a bracket like Greg has and you'll be all set. On a side note a gasket isn't absolutely needed. I know because at Watkins Glen this past summer I lost both my turbo gasket and the gasket on my Tial. I think both failed because my turbo got loose. Anyway, I finished a day and half of lapping sessions without gaskets. Another thing to keep in mind is that a loose turbo can make a car tuff to tune and that could have also been the source of knock.

Does he use brake ducts? If he does than you might want to check the size of the hose and make sure that it blows into the center of the rotor if possible. When it comes to brakes on a track car you can't get them too much cool air.

 

[Slow old poop]

I haven't installed brake ducts yet because I had no problems with overheating brakes -- no fade, no rotor warpage, no boiled fluid. I used to run a 3000GT, so I KNOW what brake problems are! I BROKE three rotors at the hat! Sheared them puppies right off.

My brake problem with the DSM until now was pad knockback, which we seem to have almost cured with new hubs. So maybe I never really used the brakes hard enough because of the knockback and all the pumping required to stop the car. Then, when we almost cured the knockback and I really stood on them at 130+, they got hot enough to crack the rotors. Seems like a reasonable theory.

So, we'll put on some 3 in. ducts. I also have a set of NASCAR blowers we might try. On the 3000GT, I used water injection. Maybe I'll do ducts and blowers to the rotors and water injection to the calipers. Like GreenGSX says, "you can't get them too much cool air." Or, as Curly used to say, "couldn't hoit."

Any photos out there in DSM land of brake duct installations? I'm concerned about clearing the tires at full lock. Not a lot of room in there.

Rich

 

[GreenGSX]

Any photos out there in DSM land of brake duct installations? I'm concerned about clearing the tires at full lock. Not a lot of room in there.

Rich

You are right, there isn't a lot of room for the ducts on a 1G. I fiddled with mine a lot and in the end I just gave up a bit of turning radius to make them work. Its not as bad as I thought it was going to be but it makes for some interesting parking when the paddock gets crowded. I haven't had any issues on track with them but I guess if I needed to go full lock on the track I would have more to worry about than a crushed brake duct...

 

[Greg Collier]

You are right, there isn't a lot of room for the ducts on a 1G. I fiddled with mine a lot and in the end I just gave up a bit of turning radius to make them work. Its not as bad as I thought it was going to be but it makes for some interesting parking when the paddock gets crowded. I haven't had any issues on track with them but I guess if I needed to go full lock on the track I would have more to worry about than a crushed brake duct...

It's especially hard to duct the Stop Techs, because the flute on top of the caliper is really hard to get air to. I haven't had an overheating problem myself, maybe it's the Porterfields I've been using. My first brake problem was my last race when I was getting some leakage from a brake line...

 

[pneumo]

I don't know if this is a viable solution or not, but I was browsing the Jegs catalog and came across a residual pressure valve. It claims to 'retain minimum brake line pressure to eliminate excessive brake travel' by keeping 2 psi pressure in the brake line. Has anyone tried this or heard of this? It seems like a good idea, except it would make the brakes drag slightly. The part numbers are 950-260-1874 for Wilwoods version, and 884-A07642 for the SSBC model.

 

[Slow old poop]

I don't know if this is a viable solution or not, but I was browsing the Jegs catalog and came across a residual pressure valve. It claims to 'retain minimum brake line pressure to eliminate excessive brake travel' by keeping 2 psi pressure in the brake line. Has anyone tried this or heard of this? It seems like a good idea, except it would make the brakes drag slightly. The part numbers are 950-260-1874 for Wilwoods version, and 884-A07642 for the SSBC model.

I bought a set of those years ago for the 3000GT -- we wanted to increase the rear brake pressure, since 3000GTs never use their rear brakes (or maybe it just seems that way) -- but we couldn't figure out where to put them. At the brakes? At the master cylinder? At the proportioning valve? It's funny you should bring that up as a possible solution to the pad knockback problem, because I was thinking that very thing myself the other day. Great minds think alike, I guess.

Anyway, does anybody know where you would put those puppies on a DSM?
Rich

 

[Defiant]

Can you get the brake rotors stress-relieved someplace, where they oven them up cool them?
Are vent holes or slots really needed? The rotor's already vented, why not just grooved instead of cut through? I also wonder if a bit more meat might help with your knockback issues.

I'm a bit shocked that you're on a track without antiroll bar upgrades. Are you rule-restricted?
I don't know that strut bars actually do much, but I'm not on race rubber, either.

You're going for more than one race on a non-kevlar timing belt? Hm.

Do you have a need for belt covers on a track?

Apologies if my points are too naive. I've never been able to afford racing (so I've never proven how slow, inept and unskilled I really am).

 

[stealthTT]

Can you get the brake rotors stress-relieved someplace, where they oven them up cool them?
Are vent holes or slots really needed? The rotor's already vented, why not just grooved instead of cut through? I also wonder if a bit more meat might help with your knockback issues.

The Stoptech rotors are the cream of the crop, not ebay specials. They should resist cracking, but Rich is hard on brakes as he admits. The slots are just grooves. They don't go all the way through.

I'm a bit shocked that you're on a track without antiroll bar upgrades. Are you rule-restricted?
I don't know that strut bars actually do much, but I'm not on race rubber, either.

There're several ways to get rid of body roll. Antiroll bars are nice for the street, because then you can run a softer spring. But harder springs are generally considered better for road racing with a softer antiroll bar. Antiroll bars can cause low speed understeer AND high speed oversteer making the car less predictable.

You're going for more than one race on a non-kevlar timing belt? Hm.

We ran hundreds of races on the same timing belt on 3000GT's. It appears to have melted the cam gear cover and then ground the back of the timing belt down. But, it could have just as easily destroyed an idler pulley or locked up a water pump. We'll see....sigh.

Do you have a need for belt covers on a track?

There is quite a bit of debris on the track. A piece of pea gravel, a stick, a chunk of tire......bad things could get in there. We'll make a cover out of aluminum.

Apologies if my points are too naive. I've never been able to afford racing (so I've never proven how slow, inept and unskilled I really am).

I love outside opinions. It's win-win for both parties. You get to learn and I might learn something too. Or at least get better at explaining it.

I don't know if this is a viable solution or not, but I was browsing the Jegs catalog and came across a residual pressure valve.

I googled this and found that you install it right after the master cylinder. They also claim that 2 lbs isn't enough to drag the pads. I'll check with a race brake specialist friend (the mad russian).

It's especially hard to duct the Stop Techs, because the flute on top of the caliper is really hard to get air to. I haven't had an overheating problem myself, maybe it's the Porterfields I've been using. My first brake problem was my last race when I was getting some leakage from a brake line...

I talked with a guy about this problem this weekend and he used fiberglass to mold some ducting past the turn radius of the tire at full lock. We'll look into that this winter. We'll update you guys with what we come up with and maybe offer it up for sale.

I'd love to get some off the shelf parts available for the next guy. If we shorten the learning curve, maybe fewer people will give up. I believe the car is a great platform for road racing. I want to buy one. If I found a steal like Rich did, I'd be all over it. Anyone want to sell a road racing prepped car for a 1/3rd of what you paid for it.

 

[Slow old poop]

>Can you get the brake rotors stress-relieved someplace, where they oven them up cool them?

In the past, I've gotten rotors cyrogenically treated to prevent warping. I can get that done here in Cedar Rapids for about $20 per rotor, and it always worked great on my 3000GT. I don't know if cyro treating will help prevent cracks. I've had rotors heat treated, as you suggest, and did not see any benefit.

>Are vent holes or slots really needed? The rotor's already vented, why not just grooved instead of cut through? I also wonder if a bit more meat might help with your knockback issues.

StopTech rotors come either drilled or slotted, so there's not much choice. Conventional wisdom says that drilled rotors are useless, suitable only for impressing people whilst cruising the boulevard. Porsche uses them, but the holes aren't drilled -- they are cast in -- so they don't crack. Drilled rotors usually crack right at the holes.

>I'm a bit shocked that you're on a track without antiroll bar upgrades. Are you rule-restricted? I don't know that strut bars actually do much, but I'm not on race rubber, either.

The car came that way when I bought it. Advice here on this forum indicate that a rear bar is next on the mod list.

>You're going for more than one race on a non-kevlar timing belt? Hm.

The stock belt should last an entire season. There is no reason for it to break unless something interferes with it, or a pulley siezes.

>Do you have a need for belt covers on a track?

Absolutely! I have a tendency to do (blush) a little "agricultural driving" and I don't need to get dirt, grass or gravel flung up into the timing belt. If the car went off into a gravel pit, for example, it would take 8 days to dig all the gravel out of the belt.

>Apologies if my points are too naive. I've never been able to afford racing (so I've never proven how slow, inept and unskilled I really am).

One of the great benefits of open-track / hot lapping / HPDE / driver school events is that you can run them in a bone-stock DSM and have a ball! Those events are not really "racing" anyway -- it's just going around a race track at speed. A few of the guys here on this forum are running NASA events, which is REAL racing -- but I think most of us run hot-lap events. I plan to do NASA next year. I would have run some this year, but they cancelled most of the Midwest events.

Back to hot lapping. At Road America this past weekend, I saw two essentially stock DSMs out there. One was my old 92 Talon TSi. I took that car to a 3000GT national gathering event at St Louis Intl speedway a couple of years ago, and ran with 3000GTs all day. DSMs are wonderful track cars, lots of cheap mods are available, and they will run with the Big Boys when suitably modded. I went with a DSM because it was too dang expensive to campaign a 3000GT. While a modded DSM doesn't have the awesome kick-in-the-ass of a modded 3000GT, it still goes like stink. The jury is out on which is faster overall. I am betting on the DSM. Most of my racing buddies still run 3000GTs, so it will be easy to tell.

As for your driving talents, remember that nobody is a born track racer, not even the Andrettis. You get fast via instruction and seat time. And when you start out in novice class, everybody is in the same boat, so you are not running against pro drivers in modded Z06es. Just other folks like yourself. Come on out and give it a go sometime. You can get plenty of advice from folks on this list on how to get started for cheap. All you need is a good set of $100 front pads just to give it a try. Warnng: You can get hooked on this stuff. It will give you a woodie!
Rich

 

[mavisky]

I love Road America, took a few laps around it back in 2000 and had the time of my life out there. I'd love to go back, not sure the talon would like to take a 7 hour drive just to get its ass kicked all over a racetrack.

 

[Defiant]

>Apologies if my points are too naive. I've never been able to afford racing (so I've never proven how slow, inept and unskilled I really am).

One of the great benefits of open-track / hot lapping / HPDE / driver school events is that you can run them in a bone-stock DSM and have a ball! Those events are not really "racing" anyway -- it's just going around a race track at speed.

I've done those at Sears Point with the roadster, and my 510 with the 240Z motor (and I took Keith Code's Superbike school there). I've decided since that it's more beating than I want to do with my cars.

As for your driving talents, remember that nobody is a born track racer, not even the Andrettis.

Ah, but I'm so secure in the knowledge that I am, that I feel no compunction to prove it.

Nor to find out how wrong I am.

 

[Slow old poop]

I've done those at Sears Point with the roadster, and my 510 with the 240Z motor (and I took Keith Code's Superbike school there). I've decided since that it's more beating than I want to do with my cars. Ah, but I'm so secure in the knowledge that I am, that I feel no compunction to prove it.

Nor to find out how wrong I am.

Since you are a moderator of this list, what would it take to get road racing separated out into its own Track Talk section, and away from all the drag racers? Drag racers are wonderful, the salt of the earth, and do all the development work before we do, of course, but I think we are building a small following of road racers here, and it would be nice to get all our posts in one spot.

And what about rallying? I don't think I've ever seen a rally story posted here, yet DSMs are class winners in Pro Rallying.
--------------------
A 240Z engine in a 510? Wow! Where'd you put the extra two cylinders? Between the front seats? I ran a 510 in Pro Rallying a billion years ago, and I didn't think there was enuf room in there for a Z motor. I wonder how a DSM motor would work in a 510? Just think, about 2000 lb with 400 hp at the rear wheels. Let's see, you'd have to put in a 240Z 4:40 limited slip to take the hp, the African Safari suspension and...Crikies! What a great rally car! MIght not make a bad road racer, either. At 2,000 lb, probably a good drag racer too. It'd be a lot of fun to bring back a 1972 Datsun 510.

Rich

 

[mavisky]

Since you are a moderator of this list, what would it take to get road racing separated out into its own Track Talk section, and away from all the drag racers? Drag racers are wonderful, the salt of the earth, and do all the development work before we do, of course, but I think we are building a small following of road racers here, and it would be nice to get all our posts in one spot.

And what about rallying? I don't think I've ever seen a rally story posted here, yet DSMs are class winners in Pro Rallying.
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A 240Z engine in a 510? Wow! Where'd you put the extra two cylinders? Between the front seats? I ran a 510 in Pro Rallying a billion years ago, and I didn't think there was enuf room in there for a Z motor. I wonder how a DSM motor would work in a 510? Just think, about 2000 lb with 400 hp at the rear wheels. Let's see, you'd have to put in a 240Z 4:40 limited slip to take the hp, the African Safari suspension and...Crikies! What a great rally car! MIght not make a bad road racer, either. At 2,000 lb, probably a good drag racer too. It'd be a lot of fun to bring back a 1972 Datsun 510.

Rich

The few rally guys I've met and spoke with in 1g's aren't really the internet type it seems. The galant vr4 forums are more active on the end of things.

I've never seen a 4g into a 510, but I've seen plenty of turbo'd SR20's in there. THe 240sx tranny makes it pretty easy from what i've read. There's just that whole wiring thing, but they look like they'd be a blast whether set up for road or rally.

 

[Greg Collier]

Since you are a moderator of this list, what would it take to get road racing separated out into its own Track Talk section.
Rich

Personally, I like the fact the all the DSM people that are actually racing their cars are on the same page. It makes me feel good to see people taking it to the next level and I always learn something new that directly applies to my car. We racers have a common bond knowing what kind of time and energy it takes to get our cars out on the track. When we succeed in our endeavors it makes it that much better

Hell, if I wasn't for John Shepherd's tranny I don't know where I'd be...

Greg

 

[mavisky]

Personally, I like the fact the all the DSM people that are actually racing their cars are on the same page. It makes me feel good to see people taking it to the next level and I always learn something new that directly applies to my car. We racers have a common bond knowing what kind of time and energy it takes to get our cars out on the track. When we succeed in our endeavors it makes it that much better

Hell, if I wasn't for John Shepherd's tranny I don't know where I'd be...

Greg

Yea it's taken me 7 years to get the car to where it is now and I've pretty much given up on drag racing. It's fun and all, but it just gets boring to me as it always seems the man with the most money will always win. In autox right now I've beat more expensive cars a few times just by driving better. If I can just get the equipment of my car up to par with the top guys in my class I think I'll be really competitive. I just wish we had some more racetracks around indiana than we do.

 

[Defiant]

A 240Z engine in a 510? Wow! Where'd you put the extra two cylinders? Between the front seats?

Friend of a friend used to do lots of stuff, and built a complete SSS 510. Then he put a 350 in a Z. It got totalled while his wife was driving it, so he had a Z motor and a 510, and insurance money. He took the 510 completely apart, had the undercarriage all gold-cad plated, cut out the firewall and built another. The rear cylinder was where the heater used to be. Custom dash, all SW gauges, scratch-built fender flares (with a formed gas flap, none of that Celica Supra cutout junk) and tons of power. The shifter was backward like a Cobra. Driving the thing made you wonder why Datsun hadn't done it, it was just superb. However, he got bored before it was actually finished, and I picked it up. He'd done the whole dash with Scotchlocks, and other pain-in-the-ass shortcuts. It was great when it ran, and an effer when "something" started acting up. That car is probably the main reason I don't do much custom crap anymore. It really burned me out on the whole over-and-over jobs.

I ran a 510 in Pro Rallying a billion years ago, and I didn't think there was enuf room in there for a Z motor.

It's more like installing the car on the motor than putting the motor in the car.

I wonder how a DSM motor would work in a 510? Just think, about 2000 lb with 400 hp at the rear wheels. Let's see, you'd have to put in a 240Z 4:40 limited slip to take the hp, the African Safari suspension and...Crikies! What a great rally car! MIght not make a bad road racer, either. At 2,000 lb, probably a good drag racer too. It'd be a lot of fun to bring back a 1972 Datsun 510.

I still have a 2-door sitting over in Napa. Maybe someday....

 

[drivemusicnow]

Wow... this is pretty cool, I'm currently buildling up a track car for road racing as well... i AM going the 2.4 route just because i think the larger powerband and more torque is worth it. We'll see how it goes, i'm still pretty far away from actually taking it to the track, but thats how these things work.

I really hope that this community grows such that it becomes easier and cheaper to build the car. Thanks for the knowledge people!

 

[Greg Collier]

Friend of a friend used to do lots of stuff, and built a complete SSS 510. Then he put a 350 in a Z. It got totalled while his wife was driving it, so he had a Z motor and a 510, and insurance money. He took the 510 completely apart, had the undercarriage all gold-cad plated, cut out the firewall and built another. The rear cylinder was where the heater used to be. Custom dash, all SW gauges, scratch-built fender flares (with a formed gas flap, none of that Celica Supra cutout junk) and tons of power. The shifter was backward like a Cobra. Driving the thing made you wonder why Datsun hadn't done it, it was just superb. However, he got bored before it was actually finished, and I picked it up. He'd done the whole dash with Scotchlocks, and other pain-in-the-ass shortcuts. It was great when it ran, and an effer when "something" started acting up. That car is probably the main reason I don't do much custom crap anymore. It really burned me out on the whole over-and-over jobs.It's more like installing the car on the motor than putting the motor in the car.I still have a 2-door sitting over in Napa. Maybe someday....

What a sweet sounding project! I love hearing about custom builds like this. The 510 continues to be a solid car of choice for the track.

I can relate to the burn out factor though... I've had two new projects that I started last year, that have been sitting since last year