I need help picking a FMIC to go with my e316g soon

[Dylan0123]

I need to order a front mount intercooler soon and I’m not sure which one to go with or where to find it.

The ultimate goal for my car is to max out my evo III 16g and I do not want an intercooler that is too big for the turbo because I don’t want extra lag for no reason. I guess I’m saying I need help finding the ideal intercooler that will cover the most amount of power my motor will ever make (max of around 400whp, e-85, meth/water inj., 30ish psi dropping to 25 most likely) with the smallest intercooler possible in order to decrease lag. I don’t care about drag racing purposes, I need something geared towards road racing since that describes the type of driving I do with my car.

I’m thinking a VRSF fmic is going to be way too big for what I need, though I do like the pipe routing and the fit/finish/quality/price of it, but 3.5’’ is too thick (increases cooling problems without having ducting on the front). The only other kits I can think of that everyone talks about on here is Punishment Racing’s (29x11x3, too big), ETS (too expensive for me), and I dunno maybe the ssautochrome/xs power or whatever it’s called. What about a dejontool fmic, or some kind of mishimoto? Are there any Hahn racecraft ones that fit the bill? What other options are there for a small-ish fmic kit? I thought about an evo 8 fmic and some custom piping but it seems like a lot of work and everyone says the oem evo 8 fmic doesn't cool very well for the size and isn't very efficient.

I'd like to keep the j-pipe i have on right now to avoid extra cost (it fires down and towards the driver's side, i think it's a vrsf j-pipe), and I'd like to run my 1g bov/cbv and 1g throttle body so I'll need piping that keeps all that into consideration.

I saw this info that gofer posted: http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/bolt-tech/444317-fmic-my-2g-dsm.html#post153064120 and I figured out I need a core with dimensions around 38.4''x4.5''x3.5'', 38.4''x5.36''x3'', or 38.4''x6.4''x2.5'' and of course I’d have to mix up the combination of length and width to be able to fit the core onto my car. If I'm going with a 3'' thick core I'd need something like a 28x7.3, 22x9.3, or 20.5x10 if that gives you an idea.

Can you guys please shoot some suggestions my way so I can get this thing ordered?

As always, thanks in advance for the help, I really appreciate it and I'm thankful this forum exists, without it I'm sure my car wouldn't be running as strong as it is today.

 

[eclipsyco]

You won't have lag from a bigger intercooler not noticeable at least unless of course you go with a very big IC say 4" core.
I have a 2.5"core with 2.5" piping on my t25 and my IC is 11 x 31 so is big and I m can assure you no difference form the stock small SMIC.
There was a thread on here that mathematically explained the reason of this.
So go ahead and just get something you like and fit nice on the your car...

Edit: found the thread http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/newbie-forum/205312-intercooler-too-big-too-small.html

 

[AK Maniak]

I would just go with the VRSF kit and call it a day. I have the PR core with 3" piping and i am going to be swapping it out with my VRSF and 2.5" piping.
I'm currently running an e316g.

 

[Dylan0123]

You won't have lag from a bigger intercooler not noticeable at least unless of course you go with a very big IC say 4" core.
I have a 2.5"core with 2.5" piping on my t25 and my IC is 11 x 31 so is big and I m can assure you no difference form the stock small SMIC.
There was a thread on here that mathematically explained the reason of this.
So go ahead and just get something you like and fit nice on the your car...

Edit: found the thread http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/newbie-forum/205312-intercooler-too-big-too-small.html

I did see that thread, but I'm not sure who is right between tstkl and 96bmwm3 so I didn't really get anything from that. I have a feeling a bigger intercooler is going to create more lag since there's more volume to fill before the air gets to the throttle body and I really don't want that, even if it's just a couple hundred rpms.

I switched from the t-25 to this evo 3 and i can't see myself going any bigger for a street car because I felt such a difference in how fast it spools and I don't want a car that spools any slower. Ideally for a street car I think it's important to have a smaller turbo for quicker spool, a stroker motor for more displacement and torque, higher compression ratio for more off boost power, cams that are geared towards low/mid range power, and adjustable cam gears to move the torque curve down.


I'm really debating the vrsf kit, it's just too easy, the price and quality along with all the great reviews is hard to beat, but it seems like it's just too big for what i want.

 

[hazmat6135]

I'm currently building my own short route setup for a CXracing top to bottom flow. It's alot like the old RRE one but just a little bigger. If you have the time and can fab te pipes yourself or have someone fab them for you it's a good way to go IMO. My total cost for the whole IC setup will be under $250 and will essentialy have very little lag and a shorter piping route than any other "off the shelf" setup. Goodluck.

cxracing.com: Front Monut Intercooler 23"x11"x3", 3" Core: 20"x6"x3", 2.5" Inlet & Outlet, ECLIPSE TALON DSM This is the one I will be using. It's a nice piece and is about 60$ less now then when I bought mine 2 years ago.

 

[4Lurker4]

Out of curiosity, did you look at the Supra SMIC as well (I'd mention upgraded side mounts, but they are scarce nowadays)? I know you mentioned FMIC as your search basis, but for an evo III, daily driving and road racing, it'll do a great job (just make sure to duct it properly). It'll do an even better job if you combine it with the water/meth injection you're thinking of using later. Not to mention it won't mess up your water temp by blocking the radiator. Just a thought.

 

[Boost Demon]

I'd also second the Supra side mount as your best option. It would fit what you're looking for and bigger than even a 1g SMIC and doesn't take much to get in place and working

 

[WES_393]

A slightly larger intercooler isn't goin to greatly increase lag. Sure, going from stock SMIC to some huge 6" thick FMIC might have a negative affect on spool time. But we're not talking 1000RPM extra lag time. The spool difference between a Punishment and VRSF kit is so little, the butt dyno wouldn't even notice.

With E85 or Water/Meth (both is seriously overkill), you won't need huge amounts of cooling anyways, so I'd suggest Punishment rather than something like ETS. PR has short route 2.5" piping and a decent sized intercooler. It has worked great with my small 16g at 25psi on E85. Even with its size, I hit can hit full boost at or slightly above 3k depending upon the gear.

 

[Doubleot]

Go with the VRSF kit love mine and its never given me any issues. The threaded BOV flanges are really nice too.

 

[TSITurbo95]

^ X2. Great FMIC.

 

[laserspeeddemon]

With a E316g, I would go with the cheapest non-ebay FMIC kit aka VRFS or Punishment Racing.

VRSF 2G DSM Front Mount Intercooler Kit FMIC : 95-99 Eclipse & Talon Turbo 2G DSM

PUNISHMENT RACING FMIC KIT: 1995-99 ECLIPSE/TALON - Punishment Racing

 

[MY1GDSM]

My Best recommendation if you truly want the Best AIT's you can have and the best flow still to your radiator. I'd go with a Extreme Turbo Systems FMIC Kit. ETS Mitsubishi Eclipse 2G 7" Street Intercooler Kit 1995-1999 they have a variety of cores to chose from out side of their own proprietary cores that they have been working on for Many years and improving as well with real world Dyno testing. Aside from that I don't think you are going to find anyone as helpful or stands behind product in the Intercooler market at a minimum.

There is a good reason they products come out on top. I seen you mention price OP. If that is a fact, I'll tell you the same thing anyone else does on here when the bring up that when it comes to a product. There is always Used... Take a look around the Marketplace or wait on a deal to come up it is the holidays

As far as some of the comments,
It never pays to skim when it comes to things like cooling a extremely hot air charge. What happen if you want to Run gas at some point and you where like oh I can run a hot pipe and don't need a FMIC cause someone else did.

I've seen and should at some point if I ever have the time go threw and Post some data from of cars I've tuned with and without a ETS Fmic to compare the difference. As a general rule most the cars I see that Have a ETS FMIC will see a slight DROP in AIT's in a 3rd gear pull an at the most a 2-3* increase on the average day. I can't say that for anyone else. I won't turn this into a specific X name vs X with out the data. But I will say this a lot of the other guys out there. Resell Kit's like this. An you can't be assured of the core design from one batch to the next as it is And have issues with fitment... . There is a big difference between something being made in house by hand with a lifetime warranty and X brand.

 

[hypergenesis]

Got the VRSF kit for mine and I love it , I was stuck between VRSF and PR. But hey function/form

 

[TSI_93]

The problem you will face with a small intercooler and running a 16g at that psi is not lag, but heatsoak.

Get the PR or VRSF, gonna be your best bets. Otherwise go with treadstone, ets, or mishimoto cores and custom fab some pipes.

 

[Dylan0123]

Great suggestions, thanks for the help everyone. Looks like VRSF really has the market figured out. It's funny how I keep seeing threads from way back in '04-'05 and people were spending $600-$800 on an intercooler kit like greddy's that has more pipe than a semi truck's .

Even though the vrsf is a bit big, i think I'm going to go with it because I may one day change my mind and decide to step up to something like a 20g turbo. It's also just the easiest choice, I won't have to mess around with trying to find a good used core in the classifieds and risk getting one that has leaks, is missing pipes/couplers/clamps, or has had turbo bearing material in it that might ruin my motor later on down the road...Also won't have to mess around with trying to make a universal pipe kit work with some random core.

I'd love to go with an ets fmic, but I'm just not in the right place financially to afford something like that. Im sure I can always sell the vrsf later if i don't like it.

 

[MaNGiNa24]

My Best recommendation if you truly want the Best AIT's you can have and the best flow still to your radiator. I'd go with a Extreme Turbo Systems FMIC Kit. ETS Mitsubishi Eclipse 2G 7" Street Intercooler Kit 1995-1999 they have a variety of cores to chose from out side of their own proprietary cores that they have been working on for Many years and improving as well with real world Dyno testing. Aside from that I don't think you are going to find anyone as helpful or stands behind product in the Intercooler market at a minimum.

There is a good reason they products come out on top. I seen you mention price OP. If that is a fact, I'll tell you the same thing anyone else does on here when the bring up that when it comes to a product. There is always Used... Take a look around the Marketplace or wait on a deal to come up it is the holidays

As far as some of the comments,
It never pays to skim when it comes to things like cooling a extremely hot air charge. What happen if you want to Run gas at some point and you where like oh I can run a hot pipe and don't need a FMIC cause someone else did.

I've seen and should at some point if I ever have the time go threw and Post some data from of cars I've tuned with and without a ETS Fmic to compare the difference. As a general rule most the cars I see that Have a ETS FMIC will see a slight DROP in AIT's in a 3rd gear pull an at the most a 2-3* increase on the average day. I can't say that for anyone else. I won't turn this into a specific X name vs X with out the data. But I will say this a lot of the other guys out there. Resell Kit's like this. An you can't be assured of the core design from one batch to the next as it is And have issues with fitment... . There is a big difference between something being made in house by hand with a lifetime warranty and X brand.

While ETS makes great intercoolers that perform really well, this statement is inaccurate. Our DSM intercooler design utilizes straight/louvered fins to allow airflow to the radiator vs ETS's staggered and offset fin pack which blocks air.

Our intercooler isn't too big at all for a 16g. Evo's run 3.5-4" intercoolers on the IX turbo which is a bit larger than the Evo3 16g. We also have hundreds of these installed on 14b/16g turbos and I have yet to hear one instance of where a customer experienced negative effects from going with this sized core.

If you're shooting for 350-750whp, this kit is the perfect size

 

[LandSpeed-DSM]

A few years back I used a 3" x 12" x 28" FMIC to max a 14B out and it allowed me to do so on pump 93.

Did the same with an S16G last fall when transitioning from a Borg S200sx to the HX52 I have now, except with an even bigger 4" core. Basically only thing that changed was I went back to a ported 2G manifold, put the 16G on with its oil lines and used a custom j-pipe that connected it to my 3" intercooler piping.

Everything else was left setup for a much bigger turbo, including the cams, intake manifold, etc.

Lag was not an issue, and your E316G, like the S16G and the 14B, all use the same TD05H turbine turbine wheel. 16G just has a slightly larger housing and a larger compressor wheel.. it'll spool plenty quickly.

These small turbos are old and tend to be less efficient than modern aero turbos, consequently they spit out a lot of hot air a big IC is worth whatever spool penalty you end up with. Especially if you have access to pump 91 or 93 only.

 

[agentorange313]

Why is everyone going with these huge intercooler cores? Why not go with a product that is proven to be efficient? You dont need a huge intercooler to support the airflow of larger turbos, you need an effective intercooler core. Find a company that makes intercooler that work, ETS, treadstone, VSRF etc.

Do the research, see what cores have proven themselves. This isnt the situation where you "Go big, or go home".

I have been pushing the limits of my ETS 7" street setup up, rated for 400 hp, I have never even come close to heat soaking this sucker. It has to do with the internal fin design and style of the core.

 

[LandSpeed-DSM]

Some of us have "done the research" and have actual experience using small medium and large cores with the little turbos.

Try getting 34-35lbs/min at 21+ psi out of a 14B on 91 or 93 with >17* timing with an undersized core.

 

[agentorange313]

Some of us have "done the research" and have actual experience using small medium and large cores with the little turbos.

Try getting 34-35lbs/min at 21+ psi out of a 14B on 91 or 93 with >17* timing with an undersized core.

Then this doesnt apply to you.

The first post is talking about maximizing the space he has with an intercooler core. Those measurements are huge, in addition there is no need to fill that complete area.

I think people should be focused on internal fin and louvres design of the intercooler they are using. Many efficient cores are available on the market, that allow for maximum cooling without using a ridiculous size core due to the internal cooling design. This is just my 2 cents, like any forum, I post my opinion, no one has to listen of follow what I say.

I have maxed out my 14b on 93 octane, I have to look at my logs, but I know timing was in the high teens. This was done with a 7" ets core.

 

[LandSpeed-DSM]

400awhp on a 16G is the goal he mentioned and why I responded, a bigger core is only going to help. We also know how often DSM owners tend to want to go bigger after getting used to the 16G/14B setups, it's a natural progression

Not everybody can get +40lbs/min out of a 16G either in the same sense that getting +30lbs/min out of a 14B is not very common. That sort of obstacle may warrant a yet bigger turbo, which would be well complimented by a core that can accommodate more flow when it comes time to turn up the wick, whether that next step is a 3076r, FP Green, S200sx-56 or a 3586R.

So basically buy for the future, just like when planning a fuel system.

Besides the sizes listed in his post are not much smaller than the 3" thick core I used on the 14B, and some were only a bit thinner than the 4" Garrett core I used, which for the record had a very fine, staggered/tiered fin lay-out.. making it both very efficient as well as large. End tanks were rounded with a flow diffuser welded in as well.

 

[MY1GDSM]

While ETS makes great intercoolers that perform really well, this statement is inaccurate. Our DSM intercooler design utilizes straight/louvered fins to allow airflow to the radiator vs ETS's staggered and offset fin pack which blocks air.

How is it inacuarte? You quoted everything I said? What part is?

I would assume this part... .

and the best flow still to your radiator

I purposely didn't get into comparing X brand vs X brand... . Though I can.

I was giving my opinion and stating my recommendation based off of my real world experience tuning cars with your FMIC and others mentioned in the thread. The ETS FMIC kits have Always performed better then any other FMIC I have personally used or on cars that I have tune had. Lower AIT's less problems with heat soak, etc.

As far as your indirect comment too the fact of the Outside fin pack.

I'm not ETS... . I don't sell their products and I am in no way vested in their company. I have nothing to gain or loss here. Besides that the Next car I tune I may be able to get more out of it with some lower AIT's then X brand. Because someone heeded my advice. I no were directly even mentioned your company name.

But, I do know the testing they have done and the continuing improvement they are continually making to their propitiatory cores. It would depend what core you are referring to specifically ... So that is kind of a moot point in this... Whether it was a Tune and fine, Bar and plate, hybrid etc. As well and I'm sure they didn't get to the point they are. By sharing every little detail out there about each an every core they send out the door

BUT, I will say this that An offset and staggered fin design will do a better job at dissipating heat. The straight through fin design will pass the air right through, the offset and staggered fin pack breaks up the air molecules and forces the air to come in contact with multiple fins.

With anything there is a trade off though either way. It's finding the balance in things that is key.
I won't get into this too much though. As I said to start it was just MY Recommendation to go ETS

But hey Since I have you here though, and you already stated the External fine pack design. Exactly what Inside fin pack do you use in all of your FMIC's?

To leave on a less... well ya... Note.
I'm not saying your Intercoolers don't work at all... I'm merely stating that In my opinion there is better out there. I'm sure we could get even More into specifics as to why. To not make just opinion or debate it. But I don't have the time or desire really to say much more then this.

Bottom line is that I'm sure based off the demographic on this site you are not going to have a problem selling these so hey.

 

[KevinRR]

I've seen and should at some point if I ever have the time go threw and Post some data from of cars I've tuned with and without a ETS Fmic to compare the difference. As a general rule most the cars I see that Have a ETS FMIC will see a slight DROP in AIT's in a 3rd gear pull an at the most a 2-3* increase on the average day. I can't say that for anyone else. I won't turn this into a specific X name vs X with out the data. But I will say this a lot of the other guys out there. Resell Kit's like this. An you can't be assured of the core design from one batch to the next as it is And have issues with fitment... . There is a big difference between something being made in house by hand with a lifetime warranty and X brand.

Your not going to provide any real data when you post up two different car with two different set-up. If your going to provide real data, your going to have to get the same car using different intercooler. I'm not sticking up for VRSF or anything, I'm just stating the facts.

 

[MaNGiNa24]

How is it inacuarte? You quoted everything I said? What part is?

I would assume this part... .


I purposely didn't get into comparing X brand vs X brand... . Though I can.

I was giving my opinion and stating my recommendation based off of my real world experience tuning cars with your FMIC and others mentioned in the thread. The ETS FMIC kits have Always performed better then any other FMIC I have personally used or on cars that I have tune had. Lower AIT's less problems with heat soak, etc.

As far as your indirect comment too the fact of the Outside fin pack.

I'm not ETS... . I don't sell their products and I am in no way vested in their company. I have nothing to gain or loss here. Besides that the Next car I tune I may be able to get more out of it with some lower AIT's then X brand. Because someone heeded my advice. I no were directly even mentioned your company name.

But, I do know the testing they have done and the continuing improvement they are continually making to their propitiatory cores. It would depend what core you are referring to specifically ... So that is kind of a moot point in this... Whether it was a Tune and fine, Bar and plate, hybrid etc. As well and I'm sure they didn't get to the point they are. By sharing every little detail out there about each an every core they send out the door

BUT, I will say this that An offset and staggered fin design will do a better job at dissipating heat. The straight through fin design will pass the air right through, the offset and staggered fin pack breaks up the air molecules and forces the air to come in contact with multiple fins.

With anything there is a trade off though either way. It's finding the balance in things that is key.
I won't get into this too much though. As I said to start it was just MY Recommendation to go ETS

But hey Since I have you here though, and you already stated the External fine pack design. Exactly what Inside fin pack do you use in all of your FMIC's?

To leave on a less... well ya... Note.
I'm not saying your Intercoolers don't work at all... I'm merely stating that In my opinion there is better out there. I'm sure we could get even More into specifics as to why. To not make just opinion or debate it. But I don't have the time or desire really to say much more then this.

Bottom line is that I'm sure based off the demographic on this site you are not going to have a problem selling these so hey.

I apologize, I put the part of your quote in bold but it seems it doesn't translate when quoting. I was referring to the comment about their cores offering better radiator flow which it does not.

Again, they make great cores and I will gladly sell an ETS intercooler if our product is unavailable, it's one of the only products I'll gladly recommend. We use the same offset and staggered fin pack externally on our 335 and Evo cores and an almost identical interior fin pack on all of our kits. I've tested almost every intercooler brand worth testing, have measured their internal/external fins and have logs upon logs of real world data. I know for a fact that ETS's current fin pack which is the latest one based upon their revision in '11 will prohibit flow to a DSM due to the fact that the only source of air is through the front bumper inlet and their staggered and offset fin pack is too dense.

Their fin pack is an excellent design on cars that aren't dependent on an individual air duct for radiator cooling but on the DSM, you're not going to cool the radiator as well and will run into the probability of overheating.

I absolutely agree that the straight through design on an external fin pack isn't the most optimal choice for an intercooler design but the intercooler has to be designed for the application. There's a fine balance between AIT reduction and radiator cooling on these cars.

There's a reason the dozens of cars we have running 10's don't run into any overheating problems with our huge 3.5" core

I know for a fact ETS has a bunch of cars there as well, we're just 1/3 of the cost.

 

[MY1GDSM]

Your not going to provide any real data when you post up two different car with two different set-up. If your going to provide real data, your going to have to get the same car using different intercooler. I'm not sticking up for VRSF or anything, I'm just stating the facts.

I'm well aware of how to do real controlled testing...

I never stated that I would post up data of different setup on different cars. I merely stated in comparison that it was the case between most setups.

I have swapped out plenty of FMIC on cars I've tuned including my own. And have lots of real world data. Not apples to Oranges.

Honestly that kind of attitude/mindset here (i'm not specifically pointing you out so much) with people who seem to go an call someone out. That people around here tend to get so quick when offering to take time out of my day. To do things like this. For an example for me to go threw 1000 of logs and data and mods list to provide real world data... .

I think in the log run for a lot of people it turns them away from doing so. It will all get debated in the end by people wanting to see video of the motor being built in the car with a time date stamp or the gains are for "this" or "that" not what is stated. I've seen it way too often here

And it's not really worth it in the end for people to do things like that.

Either way, There are TON of factors that can go into the design of a FMIC that will affect the Efficiency of it as well as air flow to the radiator and the come in to play in the over all design. I've had great experience for many years with ETS products and have real world data to back this up. I'm not going get into this much more as another Vendor on here is even saying that ETS make great products. not that is being debated.

To go along with what as been said and what MaNGiNa24 has just said.

The bottom line is there are a ton a factors that play a role and lot of different designs of FMIC kits and the application that they will be used in that come into factor.

For the average DSM'er for the cost The VSRF Fmic should work,

But my recommendation still stands for any one looking to get the best performing kit. I'd highly Recommend that they take a look at the Full line of products that ETS makes and contact them if serious about buying their products. As They can and will custom tailor about anything to your setup