How to design the best small 16g turbine inlet for max flow and WG?

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Hi!

I am currently rebuilding a s16G TD05H turbo. In the process I am doing a portjob on it. But for the turbine exhaust inlet, a guy at work that do 3D programming and modeling is going to help me machine that part.

He also have a Flow program that he uses, but I want to get some more input from you guys with the 3D skillz and flow knowledge how to get the best design.

I want the internal wastegate hole to be efficient enough to prevent boostcreep, but the main flow to get the quickest spool and highest performance is to be as little interrupted by vortex(es?) as possible.

Also it would be nice with some input on exhaust pressure, temps and airflow. Let's say 8000rpm's to have a solid startingpoint.


Just want the better design!


Anyone?

I'll post some flowreports in a while, need to scan them!


John

 

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THis is really something to think about!

But for now I will have to get the car running with my current housings, because time is biting my A** now, and I need the car running.

I need to have plans for further modifications also!

My plan for now is then:

Taper turbo inlet almost to the inducer on the compressor turbine. (not making the hole bigger all the way through).

Taper/enlarge the compressor outlet to J-pipe inside diameter.(If possible).

Make a stainless insert for the step between the exhaust housing and Evo manifold.

Grind and polish the turbo outlet a little more than I already have done. (Thrumpet shape, 2cm long).


Thats what I can see will give me any gain within my limits. I completely drop my plans on porting the exhaust housing inlet!
With the exeption on grinding a radius on top of the wastegate entrance.


Thanks for all your input guys! Now I didn't ruin my housing(s)

 

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I just got the exhaust housing back from work today.

Here is it!

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Here is where I have rounded the exhaust outlet to match the EVO O2 housing to help preventing turbulence

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My wastegate flapper work

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I drilled the hole with a 30degree upwards angle to help the flow enter the wastegate, also grinded a nice radius on top of the wastegate hole

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This went a bit off topic, but it's within the same family!


I got the flanges resurfaced, because they was warped from previous use, so now I will have a better seal against the stainless gaskets I am using.

The only thing I'll do now, is to make the insert to fit the turbo inlet, and then match the EVO3 manifold to it.


John

 

[dsm-onster]

I can't remember for sure. But when I last used my 16g I think I remember that the flapper actually touched the o2 housing when trying to open it fully. I can't remember if there is enough meat to clearance the housing from the flapper. . . I'm not 100% sure about the o2 housing even being a problem . I'd mock up the o2 housing to the turbine housing and see how far the actuator arm moves. . . Just a thought.

The only thing I'll do now, is to make the insert to fit the turbo inlet, and then match the EVO3 manifold to it.

The insert that will fit in the 16g turbine housing will exactly fit in the evo3 exhaust manifold outlet.

 

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I can't remember for sure. But when I last used my 16g I think I remember that the flapper actually touched the o2 housing when trying to open it fully. I can't remember if there is enough meat to clearance the housing from the flapper. . . I'm not 100% sure about the o2 housing even being a problem . I'd mock up the o2 housing to the turbine housing and see how far the actuator arm moves. . . Just a thought.

I beat you to it! I did it when I did the turbine housing. you remember correctly, the flapper is slightly touching the housing, and if I did choose to open the flapper more, I also will have to take out some more on the housing too.

Here is the EVO O2 housing that I am going to use

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The insert that will fit in the 16g turbine housing will exactly fit in the evo3 exhaust manifold outlet.

I know the step's are the same size, my plan is just to check the casting is perfect in the manifold after I have made the ring. Mabye radius it to enter the ring perfectly. Not any big work.

Watching my kid today, can just think of doing work on the car..

 

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Hi!

Here's a little update on how I solved it!

I "gasket matched" the EVO manifold and rounded the edges around the outlet. The SBR stainless gasket is on top. Because I have machined it to 65mm to fit the SBR manifold, there is big gap between the gasket and the inner diameter of the ring. Gasket Ø65mm. Step Ø60mm. Inside diameter of the ring and step of the exhausthousing is Ø53mm.

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Here is the ring I fabricated to fill the OEM gasket step in the manifold and exhausthousing. It is press fit into the exhausthousing, and it's quite tight to the manifold. I think that alone will provide a very good seal, but I have a stainless gasket and have resurfaced the flanges so that it will be air-tight.

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This must be the best solution within my budget. Sure, a BP housing is better, but not on my budget for now.

I just hope this will give me better results when I get it running! The result was pretty good with the SBR manifold from my knowledge!


John

 

[slipstream808]

This is the most work I've ever seen put into an EVOIII 16g!

 

[thilaksharma]

dsm-onster : but unfortunately , BEP has stopped producing turbine housings for the Td05 CHRA

 

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This is the most work I've ever seen put into an EVOIII 16g!

It's a S16G, not a EVOIII 16G..

 

[thilaksharma]

does anyone know who still have stocks on the BEP for td05chra ?

 

[dsm-onster]

I heard BEP still had some left. They take those and cut thim for the hx35s or other turbos when the get the call. . . It's a shame. DSMer's shoot them selves in the foot when they won't use a vendor for another product when only one (the frank turbos) were an issue. The BEP turbine housing is better piece than the .63 a/r PTE bolton sh!t.

 

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A bep housing is on my wishlist for Xmas..

 

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I heard BEP still had some left. They take those and cut thim for the hx35s or other turbos when the get the call. . . It's a shame. DSMer's shoot them selves in the foot when they won't use a vendor for another product when only one (the frank turbos) were an issue. The BEP turbine housing is better piece than the .63 a/r PTE bolton sh!t.

I contacted BEP about a TD05H housing, but the reply was that they discontinued them years ago.. :/

 

[thilaksharma]

I contacted BEP about a TD05H housing, but the reply was that they discontinued them years ago.. :/

im not sure if you could do this
buy a virgin BEP housing that is ment for a garrett
make a conversion plate in between the turbine and CHRA

dsm-onster, whts the geometry diffrence between the td05 turbine housing and BEP garrett or holsets , will a plate work ?

 

[dsm-onster]

The garret design is a 6 bolt pattern. The MHI requires a vband. I doubt there's enough space or the turbine wheel sits out far enough for this to work. Seams to be alot of money for custom pieces, too.

I just thought of this. If the vband for the bearing section is the same for a td05 12A, it could be possible to use a starion or conquest 8cm^2 turbine housing. The td05 turbine wheel foot print will need to be cut for a td05h turbine wheel, but now you have an 8cm^2 volute. The turbine inlet will need porting to match to a 1g manifold inlet hole or larger. The outlet has a similar design to the stock flange, but the wastegate is a less than ideal design. The outlet at the turbine is a 3bolt pattern like the 14b/16g but the wastegate vents right into the exhaust stream at the o2 housing inlet. You can weld up the wastegate outlet at that point and use a stock 02 housing, I believe. You'll have to see if one of the wastgate cover plate bolt holes line up to the top bolt on the o2 14b/16g turbine outlet flange. The outlet hole is smaller than a 16g so it can be port matched to a 2g/1g o2 housing. Pics describing what I'm talkling about can be found here. . .

An 8cm^2 bolton MHI built housing would be a stealthy way to get the most out of the 16g wheels.

 

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The garret design is a 6 bolt pattern. The MHI requires a vband. I doubt there's enough space or the turbine wheel sits out far enough for this to work. Seams to be alot of money for custom pieces, too.

I just thought of this. If the vband for the bearing section is the same for a td05 12A, it could be possible to use a starion or conquest 8cm^2 turbine housing. The td05 turbine wheel foot print will need to be cut for a td05h turbine wheel, but now you have an 8cm^2 volute. The turbine inlet will need porting to match to a 1g manifold inlet hole or larger. The outlet has a similar design to the stock flange, but the wastegate is a less than ideal design. The outlet at the turbine is a 3bolt pattern like the 14b/16g but the wastegate vents right into the exhaust stream at the o2 housing inlet. You can weld up the wastegate outlet at that point and use a stock 02 housing, I believe. You'll have to see if one of the wastgate cover plate bolt holes line up to the top bolt on the o2 14b/16g turbine outlet flange. The outlet hole is smaller than a 16g so it can be port matched to a 2g/1g o2 housing. Pics describing what I'm talkling about can be found here. . .

An 8cm^2 bolton MHI built housing would be a stealthy way to get the most out of the 16g wheels.

Interesting!

But, it also look like a LOT of work! This is work I can do or get done at work, but still, it's alot of work! Time cost money!

Do you know any skilled guy who do stuff like this, or similar, and can quote a nice-price on fabbing this stuff up? Bolt-on style? The fabricating. Porting and easy stuff I can do.

Also, the offset from the exhaust manifold to the volute centre look longer than the TD05H Housing, I think of the offset for the O2Housing and DP.

Alot can be done with money, but I have to look at the gain ws cost..

The holset route is also a tempting track...

 

[dsm-onster]

Well, the only professional work that needs to be done is the machining of the turbine housing to fit the td05h turbine wheel. Everything else would be port matching the inlet and outlet and welding between the wastegate passage and turbine outlet passage. I'm saying that it looks like you can even get the stock o2 housing to bolt on.

This housing will work if the vband clamp holding the centersection to the turbine housing is the same as the td05h frame.

Machining can be done by many custom turbo shops, like forced performance, timsturbos.com, and others. I don't think the cost will be too much more than clipping.

 

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Who knows if the V-band is the same size? Searching...

 

[jrohner]

It looks like some of your porting by the wastegate flapper was for nothing, considering it doesn't open half that far once the WGA is installed; unless you're going to mod your WGA.

I don't see a reason to be trying to get more flow, yet also lower boost creep. Are you having boost creep issues any ways? Boost creep is your friend for higher hp. My E3 16G can only do 22-23psi at peak hp no matter how high I turn it up on the low end after I installed cams. I even installed a big spring on the wategate flapper arm to pull on it, and that made the boost taper smoother bud did nothing for top end psi. Before putting the spring on, it would creep to 17 when I turned it down, but I wish it creeped to like 25-26 so I could get some more power at 5500rpms and up.

 

[dsm-onster]

Some actually lock the wastegate shut. You still could be blowing you flapper open even though you gave it help with an additional spring.

 

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Some actually lock the wastegate shut. You still could be blowing you flapper open even though you gave it help with an additional spring.

Shim it?

It looks like some of your porting by the wastegate flapper was for nothing, considering it doesn't open half that far once the WGA is installed; unless you're going to mod your WGA.

I have a idea I want to try after I get things running..

 

[dsm-onster]

Shim it?

Put washers between the actuator flange and the compressor housing.

 

[jrohner]

I shimmed it slightly a long time ago already. I don't know if I should keep shimming the actuator until I boost creep a ton (if it will) and see if it holds then or what.

 

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Now I got the car running with this setup!

I'll try to give a "review" when the break in is finished, but so far it feels very good!

 

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Now I got the car running with this setup!

I'll try to give a "review" when the break in is finished, but so far it feels very good!

Okay, I have now tested a little, and I'm actually able to boost 0.7bar all the way to redline!

The boost is glued @ 0.7bar all the way from 2000rpm-->7500rpm!

I have not turned down boost any further.

Do anyone shout success?

 

[Black_Bullet]

I havent got too extensive in the experience or research with porting but I do know that you DONT want to port away to much material from the waste gate hole section of that evo3 o2 housing as this could affect you in holding boost up top or possibly even with spool if you open the wastegate passage bigger.
Do you have cams? ^

Holding boost doesnt necessarily mean more power in this case, you do want to emphasis your efforts on making the 16g hold boost long as possible to get it flowing towards it peak, but even more so you want a high VE motor/ setup ( big cams, smim, displacement) that flows well enough that can suck as much air out of that turbo as possible without needing a high boost pressure. You want to max the turbo out at the lowest psi possible basically as more psi = more heat, less efficiency, or ign timing that can be used etc.

I tried shimming the waste gate when I was running the evo3 o2 housing and it just make the turbo have nasty low rpm boost spikes in the higher gears that caused tuning to get sloppy with pump gas.

One of the best things I did to increase the performance and consistency of performance w/ my e316g was go external waste gate. I ended up getting the punishment o2 housing with a ebay 38mm external gate and I doubled up the small and big spring to give higher minimum spring pressure.
Thus minimum boost level became 20psi. Keeping the gate shut longer seemed to help decrease spool time, while giving more consistent performance day to day out of the turbo, as well as allowing it to hold another psi or two to redline.

A decent alternatve to the DNP or evo3 manifold , is the Fp race manifold which I recommend as it has been shown to pick up 2mph in the traps on a well setup 16g car in results. Ask TurboFonz about it.
( I think thats his Dsmtalk user name, not sure about tuners.)

As well something else that will give you results as its given me is setting up a proper cold air intake piping setup going to your turbo. Denser air into the compressor seemed to definitely help my car at higher rpm, higher pressure ratios as physically packing more air into the compressor means more air that can be converted to boost.

I spiked another 2psi and held a little better to redline after doing the CAI, as well as decreased spool from that also. I dont know what is normal spool on a e316g but I seen 25psi by 3300rpms in the higher gears. Driving in 5th on the highway I basically couldnt accelerate beyond 65-70 mph without being in the positive side of the boost gauge, to the point were it got annoying as boost all the way down the highway at 10psi didnt seem healthy, nor beneficial to gas mileage. This is with bc272s and stock intake manifold and Fp race manifold and the other parts mentioned earlier.

I also agree and have had similar results to what jrohner said ^.

Hope any of that helps.