how do you make big horsepower on pump gas

[95TalonTuner]

Your boyfriend doesn't impress anyone here. Infact, I think we're all still laughing at him.

 

[el aguila]

Ok, this high boost/low timing theory has been bugging me. So what are you guys doing to stay away from knock when under high boost? I assume the car would be seeing some knock, accounting for the low timing part. Or are you reducing your base timing?

 

[Blk_99gst]

Your boyfriend doesn't impress anyone here. Infact, I think we're all still laughing at him.

That's not cool... :thumbdown

I never said it wasn't there..... re-read. I said it has been eliminated. I do think alot of you don't think I know what I am doing cause I am a girl. My knock sensor has been eliminated, it will remain that way,

I'm not picking a fight or trying to belittle you, I just want to understand more about what you are saying. So are you saying the knock sensor is still physically there, but you've cut its signal wire to the ecu? When you say it has been "eliminated"; I just want to know what you mean by that. If you don't want to discuss it anymore in this thread maybe we could take it to PM's. I just want to understand what you've done, not judge or fight.

People on here are not jumping on you because you say you are a girl, or because your a new member. But making a statement like I've eliminated my knock sensor; that's going to set off a lot of red flags with people.

 

[Nos~4G63]

I just started playing around with my logger and translator and
timing. I am anxious to learn more and understand how to tune.

Well my timing was reading 20-30* at idle and I have read that
most people read 8-11*. I know my cousin was playing with the
cam angle sensor so I figured that was my problem. With no way
to check base timing, I decided to play with the CAS to see if
I could get the timing at idle down. The car was idling high
also 1,500-2,000rpm. Well I have the timing now in the 8-10*
range sometimes it drops to 7. The car is SOOOOO slow. It
seems to spool faster but doesnt go anywhere. I have not
floored it yet as I only have 200miles on the motor.
I cant wait to floor the car and see how much psi I can run
without knock on my FP3065. I have not yet gone above 12psi

 

[dsm1kenobe]

...but i'd definatly say that more fuel = more power, and more boost = more fuel so basicaly more boost = more power (as long as your not exceding your ability to cool the boost so you dont get crazy knock) and remeber that some turbos have different efficentcy ranges.. I'm not sure what mine is (big 16G) but with my set up it seemed to be that 24lbs on pump was the sweet spot

You hit the nail right on the head. To sum it up, you'll need to burn more fuel and air which means to let the turbo do what it's supposed to do and move air. Low compression ratios also help this.

 

[G9S1X]

Then he got into DSM's. He had an AWD with a green that went 7.20@100mph(untuned and fuel cutting)

Not gunna happen. 8 seconds at the track calls for a ~160mph pass, 7.20 @ 100mph

 

[Blk_99gst]

Not gunna happen. 8 seconds at the track calls for a ~160mph pass, 7.20 @ 100mph

I thought the same thing, but then I reread her post several times:

Then he got into DSM's. He had an AWD with a green that went 7.20@100mph(untuned and fuel cutting cause his friends just talked him into running it at the last minute) 8th mile.

 

[Nos~4G63]

Not gunna happen. 8 seconds at the track calls for
a ~160mph pass, 7.20 @ 100mph

I was under the impression she was referring to 1/8th mile.

 

[G9S1X]

Ah i missed the 8th mile. i was like wtf

 

[TargeT]

100 in the 8th is the start of a pretty good run (gotta love AWD)

I'd like some clearification on base timing vrs timing under load ect.. and how one controlls all that, I'm just using an AFC and haven't messed with my CAS or my base timing (i asume this means adjusting the timing belt) but i've always heard that base timing should be 5* (not sure if its before or after TDC)

and another thing, if your logging your car 3x a week or so (i do the same, its just a good idea) I'd like to know exactly WHAT your loggin for? I log for knock counts.. everything i've learned is based of knock deturant I'd really like to understand what you log for? because with out a knock sensor your not going to be pulling timing, and except for watching the EGT's & 02 sensor (which is a bad way to do it unless you run the street with a wideband 02sensor)
I'm kinda new to it, so maybe you know somethen i dont

 

[tanner261]

A well tuned car does not need a knock sensor if all operating conditions can be held constant. Those who run race gas all the time need one even less.

But, when you are running pump gas from several gas stations, in varying weather conditions, WOT in 5th gear up a hill, etc. You need a knock sensor to keep things safe under dynamic conditions. The engine does not run the same all the time!

I ran Mobile 93 on the same day as Sunoco 94 and went from 10 counts of knock in every gear, to zero counts respectively. Yes, that is only 1 octane point. My point is that a turbo engine is very sensitive when tuned on the edge using pump gas. I'm also skeptical that the Mobile gas was really 93. I'm not saying that you will destroy an engine by unplugging the knock sensor, just that it is there as a safety.

If your car is tuned well, why remove the knock sensor? If your car is not knocking, the ECU won't pull timing. I see no reason to unplug the knock sensor.

It's like rock climbing without a harness. You probably will make it to the top, but what if you slip?

Back on topic: Running pump gas and high boost is best accomplished using less timing. There is a very small tuning window when trying to run a lot of timing; more power can be made safely with more boost and the same timing.

And to refer to another topic: http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/showthread.php?t=116765
When running low timing, keep an eye on EGTs. If you retard timing too much, the exhaust gas temp can rise to a dangerous level. I've done a lot of testing with base timing, large injectors/AFC, and modifying the injector compensation in the ECU. A reduction of 5 degrees of timing can raise EGTs from 900*C to 950*C. I've also done calibration on an engine dyno at work doing this same thing, and the same trend is observed. EGTs are only important near the cylinder head in regards to component protection.

 

[kpt4321]

Where should I start?!?!?! Well, about 5 years ago he had a mustang with over 600hp that pulled the wheels. Then he got into DSM's. He had an AWD with a green that went 7.20@100mph(untuned and fuel cutting cause his friends just talked him into running it at the last minute) 8th mile. He set the record at the track here and kept it for a year and lost it cause he dropped out of the scene for a while(personal issues). A colt that had 427hp on pump gas with a green. All of these were built in HIS garage at home. Him and his friend would work all hours of the night on peoples cars. He gets calls and IM's everyday from people needing his help. He is very well known in the Kentuckiana area. I could go on and on..... but i have only been through about a third of all the things he has done. But there are many people here that can testify he knows what he is doing. Oh, and all the things I listed above(excluding the mustang) were with stock motors. His Mirage will be his first "fully built" DSM motor!!! He hasn't tested out the 67 yet cause he just got it but the Mirage had a 61 on it but it was never dyno'ed or taken to the track! He has done many things...... I wish I could list them all, but I don't know all of them and I can't remember some of them.

Anyways, please stay off my back. You can call BS or whatever if you want. I just gave input to Mellon's like everyone else in this thread..... and look what happened. I have been on here 4 days and people are jumping my case left and right, for a freakin' KNOCK SENSOR!!!! Get over it already, it isn't gonna change! If you cannot be nice to me, then please just leave me alone!

This thread is really starting to piss me off.

I don't care what he has done, or how cool he is. That's irrelevent.

The point is that disabling your knock sensor is a bad idea on a street car. That's the whole point, and just because he made some power doesn't mean he's automatically right.

I don't understand why you feel the need to tell us how much cool he has done. WE DON'T CARE. I'm not saying he doesnt know how to build DSM's, it seems to me like he knows how to just fine. The point is that disabling the knock sensor on your car WAS NOT the right thing to do. Period.

 

[G_S_X]

I always thought timing = power...
You want low boost/high timing, depending on the turbo though really.

 

[HighPSI TSi Guy]

Ok, this high boost/low timing theory has been bugging me. So what are you guys doing to stay away from knock when under high boost? I assume the car would be seeing some knock, accounting for the low timing part. Or are you reducing your base timing?

you can retard your base timing as one thing... also when you flow more air you'll get less timing, especially on pump gas where you can't run as lean as race gas. the 1990s and the 2Gs have it a bit easier in this department since they get wusier timing maps from the factory. other than that you can get a custom chip or use a ITC or other method like e-manage of retarding timing under boost. it will be harder to get rid of knock at higher boost though, especially in 4th gear.

I always thought timing = power...
You want low boost/high timing, depending on the turbo though really.

boost = power
timing = power

choose one or the other on pump gas.. or run race gas and get both

 

[TargeT]

you can retard your base timing as one thing... also when you flow more air you'll get less timing, especially on pump gas where you can't run as lean as race gas. the 1990s and the 2Gs have it a bit easier in this department since they get wusier timing maps from the factory. other than that you can get a custom chip or use a ITC or other method like e-manage of retarding timing under boost. it will be harder to get rid of knock at higher boost though, especially in 4th gear.



boost = power
timing = power

choose one or the other on pump gas.. or run race gas and get both

so the only way to effect timing is a piggy back system, like the AFC? such a clumbsy method. i cant wait for DSMLINK

I run 103 octane (roughly) every day on the street and can push big boost levls, but haven't really looked too closely at my timing (except to see when its getting pulled heavy by knock)

right now im in the camp of more boost = more power cuz im flowing more air, and if i can keep the knock retarted, then i get more timing too..

this threat almost makes it sound like if you have better engine management you can do it different ways (more timing less boost) I guess i dont really get that ...

 

[HighPSI TSi Guy]

so the only way to effect timing is a piggy back system, like the AFC? such a clumbsy method. i cant wait for DSMLINK

I run 103 octane (roughly) every day on the street and can push big boost levls, but haven't really looked too closely at my timing (except to see when its getting pulled heavy by knock)

right now im in the camp of more boost = more power cuz im flowing more air, and if i can keep the knock retarted, then i get more timing too..

this threat almost makes it sound like if you have better engine management you can do it different ways (more timing less boost) I guess i dont really get that ...

correct... you can manipulate timing with the SAFC by adding or subtracting fuel pressure and compensating with the SAFC. OR you can directly do it by moving teh CAS or using E-manage, or ECU+ or something like that

 

[DCJ98GST]

I never said it wasn't there..... re-read. I said it has been eliminated...

I think she meant he eliminated her car from knocking, not he eliminated the knock sensor. I bet that is what he did and she misunderstood him.

Here is a thread talking about dre getting 503 whp on 93 pump. It sounds like he ran like 8deg advance to get that much air flow.

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/showthread.php?t=91793&highlight=503

You cant do that with a piggyback though. You would need a standalone to reduce the timing or at least DSMlink. But I think you can only reduce the timing on dsmlink by 5 degrees.

http://www.dsmlink.com/images/timing.gif

So for a 2G that would get you like 11 deg at the top of the gear I think.

 

[HighPSI TSi Guy]

I think she meant he eliminated her car from knocking, not he eliminated the knock sensor. I bet that is what he did and she misunderstood him.

Here is a thread talking about dre getting 503 whp on 93 pump. It sounds like he ran like 8deg advance to get that much air flow.

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/showthread.php?t=91793&highlight=503

You cant do that with a piggyback though. You would need a standalone to reduce the timing or at least DSMlink. But I think you can only reduce the timing on dsmlink by 5 degrees.

http://www.dsmlink.com/images/timing.gif

So for a 2G that would get you like 11 deg at the top of the gear I think.

you can also adjust at the CAS. on a 2G, you would have to of course install an adjustable 1G CAS to do this

 

[Violater101]

....my case left and right, for a freakin' KNOCK SENSOR!!!! Get over it already, it isn't gonna change! If you cannot be nice to me, then please just leave me alone!

I think your taking this all the wrongway. They are not being mean to you, bur rather they are trying to save your car from serious damage. What you do to your car is your business, but don't get upset because people are telling you that removing your knock sensor is a bad idea ..which is is. It's easy to go on the defensive when people tell you something that is contradictory to what you are doing.

 

[deusxmachina]

Anyways, please stay off my back. You can call BS or whatever if you want. I just gave input to Mellon's like everyone else in this thread..... and look what happened. I have been on here 4 days and people are jumping my case left and right, for a freakin' KNOCK SENSOR!!!! Get over it already, it isn't gonna change! If you cannot be nice to me, then please just leave me alone!

They are only trying to save you from yourself. Street cars should have knock sensors, and that's that. Even nearly-stock supercharged Camaros have knock sensors. What a street car makes for hp doesn't mean jack if it doesn't make it over a long period of time. YMMV, thank you, come again.

 

[dls93tsi]

IMO i always thought for a street car you want to try and find the happy middle, instead of high boost/low timing or low boost/high timing, how bout kinda high not-on-the-edge boost AND timing? i am only running 10 psi at 0 knockright now, but on a good pull i will destroy almost anything around my area. i figured if i turned the boost up to about 17 -18 i would be able to keep alot of my timing and keep a low knock. i only run sunoco 94 thoug, maybe that makes a diff too

 

[TargeT]

IMO i always thought for a street car you want to try and find the happy middle, instead of high boost/low timing or low boost/high timing, how bout kinda high not-on-the-edge boost AND timing? i am only running 10 psi at 0 knockright now, but on a good pull i will destroy almost anything around my area. i figured if i turned the boost up to about 17 -18 i would be able to keep alot of my timing and keep a low knock. i only run sunoco 94 thoug, maybe that makes a diff too

your not running any fuel management though. its different when you can turn up the fuel and turn up the boost

I also have a big 16g (ported) and i run about 20-24psi on the street, with 18* or so of timing.

I'd say my car is faster than 90% of the cars out there (too many cobra's and camero SS's up here.. )

 

[Kevin Jewer]

I spend a lot of time on pump gas, so I'll add my 2 cents. I Typically run in the 25 psi range, but I Can go higher with out knock. I went to the dyno recently and started with zero timing added, or a max advance of around 17 degrees. I used to subscribe to the low timing theory as well, until I started to play with it. As I added timing, every run got stronger. I ended up with 430 whp with about 21 degrees advance. I dont know how dre makes that much power at such low timing, especially if I can expect his "50 trim" to flow what a 50 trim should.

This motor has compression in the 195 psi range, which must be pretty damn close to 9:1, and I get very very little knock at all the settings I have tried thus far. As a particular setup gets more and more efficient, the difference between pump gas and race gas gets smaller and smaller I think this is the key that most poeple overlook, and it didnt occur to me until about a year ago. Race gas is a crutch. Properly setup, pump gas gives the same results. I proved this on my car last year. I couldnt raise boost over 25 psi because of the profec. When I Switched to race gas, there were no gains. Adding in timing got me only a little more, but I couldve been more agressive with it looking back. At higher levels of boost, race gas become more necessary of course.

On my current setup, which has changed slightly, I increased timing to 22 degrees, and leaned out to 11.3-4 to 1. At 20 psi this was good for 119 mph on a borrowed 60-1. I've run 11.8s at 117, so with traction these could have been nice runs. The following day on the street I snapped the input shaft to the tranny, so the car is undergoing even more changes while I wait for it to get rebuilt (again, and again, and again). By as early as next weekend I hope to be pushing things further on pump to see how far I can take it. I have a few other theorys I'd like to look into.

 

[HighPSI TSi Guy]

22

that's a lot of timing for pump gas... i start to get knock at anything over 21 unless i dump a shitload of fuel

do you run water injection?

 

[kpt4321]

Kevin, I did not know that your 119 mph run was only at 20 psi. That's absolutely amazing.

HighPsiTsiGuy, he doesnt run WI. Like race gas, when you have a really efficient setup, water injection doesn't do very much for you. This is especially so since Kevin's FMIC is about the size of my house.