How can a 14b do 11's?

[havoc742]

Why it is possible to run 11’s on a 14b turbo.

The DSM is an amazing machine. No doubt about it. But who would have ever thought someone would be able to run 11’s on a 14b turbMG Many of us are wondering how is this possible? So I started doing some research into how a turbo engine works. I found some amazing information that has changed how I will upgrade my DSM. (Upgrade yours however you would like)

The key to making the most out of engines and turbo’s is to optimize the flow of oxygen into our engines and regulate pressure differentials.

What is pressure differential?
Pressure differential is a combination of Intake pressure, cylinder pressure and exhaust pressure(back pressure). These pressures are affected by air density, boost, exhaust piping, and intake piping respectively.

Most of us, including myself, started our upgrade process by first purchasing a boost controller and cranking it up to 15psi. Sounds like a good thing to do and man does the car feel good. Here’s the problem with doing this. As you increase boost pressure your engine expels more exhaust thus creating more back pressure. Before turning up our boost we need to acknowledge the fact that oxygen content into the engine, not boost pressure, increases power. A ported head and upgraded intercooler can make a lot of power without increasing boost. This isn’t to say that increasing the boost on our cars isn’t necessary. We all know that the factory boost setting is to low. For now a boost pressure of 12-14psi is plenty for the beginning of our upgrade. An upgraded intercooler is probably not necessary just yet(as some have run 11's on stock SMIC) but it would provide a little more power now. An intermediate intercooler (18-20x10x2) or the Buschur kit, which is designed to work with small and large turbo’s, is sufficient enough for 300-500hp applications. A Supra SMIC will probably work aswell.

The next upgrade that our DSM’s could benefit most from is an upgraded exhaust. As I stated above the more boost, the higher the back pressure. With the increase in flow from our ported head we need to get ride of all that extra backpressure we have created. A simple start is to remove the cat and upgrade the muffler. If you have the money upgrading to either a 2.5” down pipe transitioning to a 3” exhaust at the flex pipe or a full 3” system would be best. Note: With a 3” down pipe you might wind up with a little boost creep.

Another well suited upgrade at this point is hard intercooler piping. The ripples in the plastic factory piping make a lot of turbulence slowing the flow of air to the intake manifold. Upgrading the intake pipe, getting a K&N filter(or whatever you like), and hacking the MAS(1G only) will also help the turbo suck more air.

By porting our head and upgrading our I/C pipes we have optimized the flow of oxygen to the engine and the expulsion of the exhaust gases. By upgrading our intercooler the air getting to the engine is cooler making it more condensed increasing the pressure in the intake thus increasing the amount of air entering the combustion chamber all without having to increase boost. Upgrading our exhaust reduces the amount of backpressure from the increased exhaust gases being expelled.

We are almost to the point of increasing boost beyond 15psi but first we need to understand how valve timing is directly proportionate to boost levels. In boost applications 15psi and under the turbo works best when the intake valve opens close to TDC and stays open a little ATDC(after top dead center). As boost is increased beyond 15psi but below 30psi it is best to delay the opening of the intake valve a little after TDC. After 30psi valve timing becomes tricky. Adjustments across the entire timing curve are necessary to avoid reversion(shifting of intake charge out of the cylinder).

This leads us back to pressure differential. Ideally, you want the intake valve to open when the pressure in the cylinder is close to or equal to the boost pressure and as close to when the exhaust valve closes, never before. If both valves are open at the same time this is called valve overlap. If the pressure in the exhaust is greater than the pressure in the cylinder and intake some exhaust gases will be forced back into the cylinder and some of the intake charge will be forced back into the intake. If the intake pressure is greater than the exhaust pressure then some of the intake charge may be forced into the exhaust housing increasing temperatures of the exhaust valves and turbo.

Ultimately the next best upgrade is some sort of engine management to control timing as well as fuel. Obviously as you increase the air going into the engine you need to increase the amount of fuel. Upgrading your cams can also help you gain the most out of your turbocharged engine.

Remember, as you increase boost pressure you also increase the pressure in the cylinder. These added pressures can take there toll on the stock internals and valve train. When upgrading to larger turbo’s upgrading your internals and valve train can help prevent the ominous “boom” some of us have heard at the track when the engine blows and avoid head problems such as floating a valve, etc.

As to the 14b’s potential. We don’t yet know where it stops. With the right supporting mods and proper timing we could see times well into the 10’s before we find it’s limits.

Hopefully with this information you can decide the best upgrade path for you and what you would like to achieve. No where in here am I saying that what you have done is wrong or that you have to do it this way. I am simply stating the information I have researched as it pertains to the DSM and how I would like to upgrade my DSM. With any luck hopefully I can avoid blowing my engine at the track.

Upgrades such as swapping heads, SMIM’s, exhaust manifolds, turbo’s, external wastegates and things like compression ratios and stroker kits have effects I did not cover in here due to the fact that there are to many variables to cover without writing a book. If you have questions pertaining to these items seek the knowledge of someone doing these changes or an experienced shop. The information stated here are basic concepts to consider when doing any turbo swap.

 

[rhamlinii]

Man, theory is just that. The 14b can only flow so much air, because of the turbo size. If you really want to know the secret to the 14b turbo, stop thinking about the motor and the turbo. The car and the driver is the secret. No matter who they are, most 14b cars trap the same and make the same power in fwd and awd vesions . The driver and how they dial in there cars "weight, supension, driving style" is what makes them fast. Danl, pumeo, phil1320,Joe, leon, Nate, you could name a list if you choose. They just know what works, and can drive there damn cars. That's why the 14b is so fun, everyone is equal.

Curt Brown is the only acception to this rule. You'll never see him post, but you'll hear his name. He's the only man in the world that pull something out of nothing. His evo 16g ran low 10s @ 130+, and everyone else are just breaking high 10s now. They also trap almost more then 10mph slower. His car isn"t light, so how he'd do it?

 

[fwdmaster]

Joebucci.com

 

[T9S1i]

Man, theory is just that. The 14b can only flow so much air, because of the turbo size. If you really want to know the secret to the 14b turbo, stop thinking about the motor and the turbo. The car and the driver is the secret. No matter who they are, most 14b cars trap the same and make the same power in fwd and awd vesions . The driver and how they dial in there cars "weight, supension, driving style" is what makes them fast. Danl, pumeo, phil1320,Joe, leon, Nate, you could name a list if you choose. They just know what works, and can drive there damn cars. That's why the 14b is so fun, everyone is equal.

Curt Brown is the only acception to this rule. You'll never see him post, but you'll hear his name. He's the only man in the world that pull something out of nothing. His evo 16g ran low 10s @ 130+, and everyone else are just breaking high 10s now. They also trap almost more then 10mph slower. His car isn"t light, so how he'd do it?

thats the truth right there... plain and simple

 

[ihatedsms]

Its not just the driver, yea the car has to be setup right and tuned properly, Its the DSM! Everyone thinks you need a build motor and at least a 50 trim to run in the 11s and 12s when it is just not true. The dsm community is the reason that 11s on a 14b seems so crazy. When it is really not. Many people have done it and have been close to it.

Stock turbo is good for 320awhp

Stock motor is good to 550awhp

So if people are looking for a 300hp car, why do they need a built motor and big turbo? When there stock car can do it. It just dosent make sence.

 

[ihatedsms]

Curt Brown on the other hand is just a freak of nature, making 500hp on a 16g and No N20,That is insane, Dsms aint nothin to fu@k wit, like wu tang.

 

[bodcus]

Bravo!!!! Well said.

 

[Black_Bullet]

14b is a decent stock turbo, good potiential, but not everyone wants to try to hard to make 300awhp.
I do believe in optimizing a setup to the fullest, but I prefer to get a little more out of my dsm and I like the e316g instead for a low 300awhp goal, with the potiential to dish out MUCH more... Im not knocking the 14b though, My car has seen low 12s at 111mph traps on stock turbo. The people going really fast with 14bs are just optimizing what that turbo needs to achieve its potiential, while emphasising in some serious driving and launching to get it down into the 11s. Thats all.... People like Curt Brown, and Joe Bucci dont count.

 

[havoc742]

A man that understands it's a combination of man and machine.

No where in here did I say that it doesn't take skill to make good times with a proper setup. I am simply emphasizing that a good setup and proper tune will make the most of what you do have.

 

[H82lose91]

People like Curt Brown, and Joe Bucci dont count.

I disagree, i think both of these guys show what really pushing the envelope can do. A year before Curt put down 499whp i had decided and was determined to put down 450whp on a E16g on pump and meth. Not having reached that goal yet seeing those numbers were motivation that it can be done. Then to see a few other dyno's on that same turbo nearing 450whp made it even more attainable. Curts car isnt full weight, but its not a gut box either. Im not sure of the exact number but im betting its under 3000lbs w/ driver. Joe B also showed what can be done on a budget on a small turbo and a small turbo with spray, and FWD to boot.

Im not saying everyone can be Curt or Joe, but they show what can be done with the right combination and knowledge.

Back to the topic at hand, a buddy just bought a GVR4, its sporting a 14b at the moment. We will be seeing how far we can push it. Breaking into the 11's would be sweet, but i think low 12's without a built high comp. motor is more than likely where we will end up.

 

[havoc742]

Good luck to you and can't wait to see what you guys can do with it. Just keep checking the forums and reading up on the setups of the guys pushing the envelope with these small turbo's.

 

[JayRolla]

The reason people run larger turbos because its a lot easier to make power with a bigger turbo. You can slap a big turbo on and make tons of power on stock blocks, cams, intake mani's and so on. To get the real fast trap speeds on little turbos you spend lots of time and money on all the other stuff, when you could have saved yourself the trouble and bought a new turbo. Also most of those guys had fully gutted cars that where not to street worthy.

 

[ihatedsms]

Yea but when you put a bigger turbo on and go the same speeds or slower.

And not true about it costing alot to make a 14b fast.
My car had junk yard parts and hand me downs. It dose not take alot of money. The only reason i stuck with the 14b is because i had no money for upgrades. I really didnt need them.

For the price of a big turbo i made my 14b go 112mph in quarter mile.

 

[Black_Bullet]

I disagree, i think both of these guys show what really pushing the envelope can do. A year before Curt put down 499whp i had decided and was determined to put down 450whp on a E16g on pump and meth. Not having reached that goal yet seeing those numbers were motivation that it can be done. Then to see a few other dyno's on that same turbo nearing 450whp made it even more attainable. Curts car isnt full weight, but its not a gut box either. Im not sure of the exact number but im betting its under 3000lbs w/ driver. Joe B also showed what can be done on a budget on a small turbo and a small turbo with spray, and FWD to boot.

Im not saying everyone can be Curt or Joe, but they show what can be done with the right combination and knowledge.

Back to the topic at hand, a buddy just bought a GVR4, its sporting a 14b at the moment. We will be seeing how far we can push it. Breaking into the 11's would be sweet, but i think low 12's without a built high comp. motor is more than likely where we will end up.

Reason why I said they dont count, is because people like them have far more time, money, and support behind them fueling their goals and their success.

The average person doesnt make a CAREER out of this hobby ( i.e. like Shep, Curt, Buschar, Marco) whom are the people who are really going fast... Hell the average DSMer is still young in college or highschool and not even knowing what direction their going in their life; and thus lacking the money or experience and tuning knowledge. A lot of us ARENT trying to set records, we just want to be reasonably fast for our circumstances.
A lot of us DONT have thousands and thousands to dump in replacing driveline parts every season when trying to do consistent 10 sec awd passes or faster. The average person isnt apart of this "elitist" group of dsmer, the average person doesnt have a shop, or a team, or countless dyno hours, or high quality expensive tools and machinery ( hell I barely can find all my sockets to my socket set )
Thus this thread is better comparing what the average joe can do and NOT be compared to a 10yr dsm vet or pioneer with a lot more tools at their arsenal...

But, 11s on a 14b are still ENTIRELY possible for the average Joe IF they are willing to push the envelope and really devote to their turbo, and pay attention to the right people while spending enough time with the small stuff... Not to mention investing a lot in the driver mod

 

[rhamlinii]

14b is a decent stock turbo, good potiential, but not everyone wants to try to hard to make 300awhp.
I do believe in optimizing a setup to the fullest, but I prefer to get a little more out of my dsm and I like the e316g instead for a low 300awhp goal, with the potiential to dish out MUCH more... Im not knocking the 14b though, My car has seen low 12s at 111mph traps on stock turbo. The people going really fast with 14bs are just optimizing what that turbo needs to achieve its potiential, while emphasising in some serious driving and launching to get it down into the 11s. Thats all.... People like Curt Brown, and Joe Bucci dont count.

Curt brown doesn't count at all, but Joe does. He used a basic stock motor and put his time/knowledge to lighten his car to lower his E/T. He also dialed in the car to used traction in a fwd format, to use use what horse power he had to get down the track.

I disagree, I think both of these guys show what really pushing the envelope can do. Joe B also showed what can be done on a budget on a small turbo and a small turbo with spray, and FWD to boot.Im not saying everyone can be Curt or Joe, but they show what can be done with the right combination and knowledge.

I think they both opened alot of people eyes to what anything in a td05h compressor housing could do. Most people would've never put the amount of money into a DSM that Curt Brown would've in a "16g" car. If they did, they'd build somehting that could perform like his car. Joe proved something completely different, you don't have to invest alot of money to make "something for nothing". Nate did the samething with his awd dsm in (grass-roots) trim. I have had a many setups thru the years, with many hours and dollars invested into them. My friends 16g car with a small 175 shot is faster and stonger then most of them with hardly in money in the car. He's on a stock motor with a 264 exhaust cam, and arps that we happened to throw together. Thinking outside of the box, and if I would have known what I know now. I wouldn't have spent more then 20-30,000 on dsm's since i've owned my first one.

The reason people run larger turbos because its a lot easier to make power with a bigger turbo. You can slap a big turbo on and make tons of power on stock blocks, cams, intake mani's and so on. To get the real fast trap speeds on little turbos you spend lots of time and money on all the other stuff, when you could have saved yourself the trouble and bought a new turbo. Also most of those guys had fully gutted cars that where not to street worthy.

That's not entirely true at all, it's what you have and how you drive it. Using gear ratios and tire sizes helped puemo get his desired E/T. If you read Leon's old post, he said 2 years eariler what would work for a 14b car. Tire combo's, cams, engine, he spelled it out for everyone. Just about everyone with a 14b turbo traps the same. Fwd car are the only ones to trap 120-122 without spray. Most awd car's trap 110-116 maxed out. Everyones running the same trap speed proves they're all around the same power-to-weight ratio. Some do it with built motors and then some will do it with stock 150,000+ motors. Some did it with just about full weight cars and stock fuel pumps. What your talking about is strickly in regaurds to Curt Browns car. Danl and Nates car on stock motors are a clear example of what a stock motored 50-trim cars will do with tunning and a hell of a driver. 11.00 @125 for nate, and 11.50's at 130+ for Danl. I say anything with tags, glass, and a driver/ passanger seat is road worthy at this point. I'll drive my Jeep to take out my girlfriend and go to work.

Yea but when you put a bigger turbo on and go the same speeds or slower.

And not true about it costing alot to make a 14b fast.
My car had junk yard parts and hand me downs. It dose not take alot of money. The only reason i stuck with the 14b is because i had no money for upgrades. I really didnt need them.

For the price of a big turbo i made my 14b go 112mph in quarter mile.

Phil is actually becoming a good exapmle of a 14b costing more then what it may be worth. Read his past post and he says "dollar for dollar", once you do so much on a 14b. You start to investing alot more for fractions of a second. He still run's 12.00, but traps more then 3mph faster. He also has lighted the car, and added more parts since 12.02. The difference in the money for what he has done since he ran 12.02 would turn anyone off a 14b. I'm not starting an arguement, and I agree with Phil and Leon. Phil always posted mod for mod, he has one of the most impressive and fastest 14b cars. Leon who was just de-throwned, said faster is faster. Leon always had more mods then Phil, and Phil kind of always wined about it. If you were a newbie and compared cars, even though he said some mods were counter productuve to a 14b. Leons car had way more money into it in parts. So much so you could just throw a 50 trim, fmic, injecters, and a afc in Phils car. At that point you'd still have less invested money into Phills car total, and who would you think would be faster.( Yes, that was a bit of bench racing.) Puemo is the new example of what a low cost 14b will do. Even though he has a built motor/ twin disk, alot of other parts remain stock.

His idea of using the the ecu to cut off the signal to the wastegate, was one of the coolest things i've seen since someone came out for dsmlink for a 2g.