How are you E-85 guys tuning the WOT AFR?

[turboglenn]

Okay, since stoich is about 9:1 on e-85, how are you guys that are running it tune the WOT stuff? My wideband only goes as low as 9:1. I've heard the e-85 likes 6:1 at WOT, but like i said, my gauge doesn't read that low, does yours? If so what brand is it.

Mine was built by a guy that was an engineer for Chevrolet and said that my meter is designed off the circuitry they put together to run 5 wire o2's on the V6 saturn wagons in 02 and 03. My readable range is from 9:1 - 25:1, but it's dead accurate. He built some extra stuff into it so it self tests and calibrates on every warm up cycle. (which makes it slower to come on) And NO it's not from the DIY wideband either, the circuitry is well enough different. I hate that it's bulky and takes forever to warm up ( about 2-3 minutes), but i do like that it is so accurate I just wonder how people on e85 are tuning accurately.

But anyway, whos wideband will read as rich 6:1?

 

[Big Al 389]

Glenn,from everything I've read on it and the way it explained to me was that you add 33% and then tune for gas afr's.The reason for tuning this way was givin to me as follows,e-85 is an oxegenated fuel thus it has a differant density than gas so you need the 33% more e-85.After adding the extra fuel for e-85,the wbo2 will see the afr the same as gas afr's.If anyone running e-85 has anything to add or correct with what I posted please feel free,I'm not trying to spread mis-information just relaying what I've been told!
Hope this helps...Al

 

[90laserRSfwd]

ask "biglady" here on tuners.

 

[JayRolla]

Glenn,from everything I've read on it and the way it explained to me was that you add 33% and then tune for gas afr's.The reason for tuning this way was givin to me as follows,e-85 is an oxegenated fuel thus it has a differant density than gas so you need the 33% more e-85.After adding the extra fuel for e-85,the wbo2 will see the afr the same as gas afr's.If anyone running e-85 has anything to add or correct with what I posted please feel free,I'm not trying to spread mis-information just relaying what I've been told!
Hope this helps...Al

That is correct, once you add about 30% fuel tune to a good afr as you would gas. My mechanic always tunes gas and e85 too low 11 afr's. Always makes good power with zero knock.

 

[turboglenn]

so you're saying that i just tuneto say 11.5:1 on pump gas, then i just add 33% across the entire board of fuel tables and add timing to boot and the AFR's should be fine?

Sweet, thanks for the info everyone. This will be easy for me since i can select my entire map and increase or decrease by any precent i want. This would allow me to run the same map with only a 33% increase and more timing on the e-85map, and if i can't get the ethanol, i'll just load the "pump gas map" with low timing and safe AFR's

Is this really that much better than just running added methanol injection on top of pump gas?

 

[JayRolla]

No you want to use a wbo2. Add 30% on top of your wot fuel curve. Tune to a low 11 afr after you add 30%. Dont just add 30% and think its going to be right. Also for cruising you still want to tune to 14.7.

E85 is like running race gas all the time. Some even think its better. I know guys running 30+psi and 24+* timing on t67 to4e turbos making 600+whp. My brother is making 350+whp on a 16g running 25psi and 26* timing with zero knock.

 

[Tarantula]

I have been running E85 for almost 2 years but I run a mix of E85 and 91. I tune it for 11:1. I run only 5 gallons with the rest being 91. Zero knock. I love this fuel!

 

[turboglenn]

WEll, I guess now i just have to wait for E-85 to get a tad more popular at the pumps here and save for some big injectors and another (2nd) pump to keep teh fuel flowing, On pure e85 what size injectors would you recomend and what's a good brand/good quality injector in those sizes of 1000cc's and up?

The biggest i've put in any of the cars i've tuned have been a set of 1000's and i think he ordered them from slow boy racing. Everyone around here either runs moderate boost on pump gas or just runs race gas all the time, buying it by the drum. I'd love to run 26 PSI and 26* timing on my car at anytime i felt like putting the hammer down I still think i'm just going to do alky injection for now.

What is this Bosch "044 pump" i keep hearing about? Gotta link to that?

It's weird when you've tuned cars and motorcycles most of your life, but when you get on your first car forum you feel like such an amiture because you learn of all these new sources and what's popular in the latest parts for DSM's . I mainly end up tuning hondas and have had my car on the back burner for years now. And all this new stuff with the lower prices is awesome, i think i can actually afford to finish my car this year Teh DSM net lingo of acronyms has kept me scratching my head and searching for that post often as well hahaha. When i was big into them you only had Buschur, extreme, and RRE..Magnus was just popping up on the scene at the time i was planning more on other things and got off the DSM track.

 

[Tarantula]

If running straight E85, most go with 1600cc. The Bosch 044 pump is an inline pump to go with a 255walbro. You need plenty of fuel running straight E85. I heard that theres a kit selling everything including the pump. Look around or google search it. I daily drive my setup but I plan on getting 1000cc and an FP3052. I only add enough gallons to make a mix to resist knock. Since I daily drive, theres no need to run Straight E85. I plan to tune for 25 psi on the FP3052.

 

[JayRolla]

Only problem with mixing is it changes sometimes and you have to readjust the afr. Going straight is alot easier because you wont have to spend the time to mix and retune. You can also run a walboro inline along with the intake unit.

1600cc injectors are the best to go with but if you dont have a full standalone they can be hard to dial in, but I know people doing it with dsmlink. They do say it is a PITA though. 1150's work great with dsmlink but then you may be injector limited if you are going with a crazy setup. My brother has 1000cc injectors on his 16g car and has quite a bit of injector left. He is also running just a 255hp fp.

 

[biglady112]

We tune for 11.5:1 on straight E85 out here. With water/meth injection we shoot for 12.0:1.

It is not a must to run 1600's with E85. I had them, but then again, I was making over 500whp through the stock engine and had plans on going larger. we currently have a car with a rewired 255 walbro, FIC 950's and stock fuel lines to and from the tank. He is just a hair under 600awhp. The thing saving him is the ability to run the methonal injection and getting the proper voltage to the fuel pump.

Here is a rough estimate as to what injector you may need.

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/articles-tuning-ecu/253452-e85-injector-max-lb-min-calculations.html

Steven

 

[Tarantula]

Only problem with mixing is it changes sometimes and you have to readjust the afr. Going straight is alot easier because you wont have to spend the time to mix and retune. You can also run a walboro inline along with the intake unit.

1600cc injectors are the best to go with but if you dont have a full standalone they can be hard to dial in, but I know people doing it with dsmlink. They do say it is a PITA though. 1150's work great with dsmlink but then you may be injector limited if you are going with a crazy setup. My brother has 1000cc injectors on his 16g car and has quite a bit of injector left. He is also running just a 255hp fp.

Not true. I have been doing it for almost 2 years and never ever have to adjust for changes. My fuel trims are dead on everytime. My wideband reading also never changes. I don't know where you heard that it changes but in my case you are wrong. No changes for weather either.
What I do is simple. Run the car until its time to fill up. Go to E85 and pump in 5 gallon. Than move car to 91 octane. Fill the rest of the tank. I don't change my routine never.

 

[90laserRSfwd]

Steven is the man, proven once again. Thanks brother...

 

[90laserRSfwd]

to the OP, not to hijack your thread, but since we're talking about e85 here.

I have the new FP HTA gt35r on order (lucky me huh?)

Steven,

Will a rewired Walbro 255 hi pressure and a (rewired) bosch 044 pump with 1150cc injectors (in your opinion) with 37psi base pressure (1g turbo dsm) be able to handle 32 psi (35 spike) from this turbo? I'm just wondering before I buy the injectors. I have dsmlink and an Innovative wideband. Let me know what you think. I know it depends on my airflow and I have not had time yet (bought my dsmlink in August!) to even start tuning the car, mainly because I don't have injectors or the turbo yet. If I'm incorrect could you recommend an injector size for me then (I'm praying not 1600cc's but if that's the case so be it)

Thanks in advance.

 

[turboglenn]

JayRolla, i do run a ful stand alone, and i tune a lot of them for a 2nd job. So big injectors won't be a problem for me. Teh only place they are ungodly troublesome is at idle. Injectors don't like to be open less than 2ms, and i have to run mine (720's) at 1.064ms - 1.232ms at idle depending on ambient temps from summer to winter. But the 1000's i dialed in on my friends car with a LINK stand alone ( not DSMLink) i got a near perfect but rich idle out of it. My car is happy to run rich at idle.. i shoot for 12.5 - 13 at idle.

90laserRS, i have no idea if your motor will hold, but from what i read, if you're wanting to run 32 PSI you better build the hell out of the bottom end and get the deck O-ringed if you can. We O-ring them at anything getting near 30 PSI as a safetly caution when i'm building the motor.

 

[90laserRSfwd]

sorry my profile isn't up to date. I have Mahle 8.3:1 pistons, scat rods, arp main studs, acl tri metal bearings, BSE, balanced rotating assembly, surfaced block and head (30 something RA), magnus head studs with a Mitsu MLS headgasket. No leaks that know of and I've spiked 27 psi on an scm6152e already.

see my other thread:

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/tur...cm6152e-what-upgrade-too-my-goals-inside.html

 

[Ajax]

The best way to read a WBO2 with E-85 is display it in lambda so that 1 is stoich no matter what fuel you run. And just a reminder if you live in the colder areas like me they they thin out the E-85 during the winter to more like E-70 or so. I also run a set of 1660cc injectors with Megasquirt with the HiResolution code which works great for such big injectors.

 

[biglady112]

90laserRSfwd

If that is the only turbo you plan on going with, I think the 1150's will get the job done. They will be pretty close to maxed out, but it may save you from the issues of the 1600's. But, an injector driver box will make any injector smooth and like stock. So it is your call there. 1600's will give you enough, and 1150's will be pretty close to the edge.

And those pump will work. I used a single Aeromotive Eliminator. But if you go with any kind of twin pump setup, please run them in parallel. There is nearly twice the flow potential. A few guys recently have found that running pumps in series leaves a lot to be desired.

Steven

 

[90laserRSfwd]

thank you...

 

[Street Surgeon]

I sent you a PM on that bosch 044

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[Tarantula]

Heres a dual Walbro intank kit.
Full Blown Motorsports

According to the fuel pump test from AMS, two walbro 255HP's in parallel will flow over 400lph at 80psi, more than any sane DSMer ever needs.

 

[turboglenn]

Pm recieved, Thanks. That dual hangar setup is what we used un my buddies grand national w/ 2 x 255 wallys on it. It was more fuel than he needed, and he was making well over 600 to the rear wheels on it.

 

[Jeff_Jeske]

The best way to read a WBO2 with E-85 is display it in lambda so that 1 is stoich no matter what fuel you run. And just a reminder if you live in the colder areas like me they to thin out the E-85 during the winter to more like E-70 or so. I also run a set of 1660cc injectors with Megasquirt with the HiResolution code which works great for such big injectors.

^^^ Very true and there's no way to tell whats what. Its important to get your E-fuel from the same place so you know the consistency.

The other side effect is cold weather starting..... it tends to take more cranks to get it to fire.

 

[Car Cannibal]

Hey Tarantula, before you go stating that someones post is not true you need to first know what might CHANGE in E85 to attribute to Jayrolla's post.

Take a look at where you are from, and where he is from?
Then ask yourself, will E85 have enough BTU's to start in the winter, do you really have a Winter where you are??

So Jayrolla is right, run a wideband as often as possible and especially if you are in the north around Fall to Winter and watch E85 turn into E70 and run much fatter then change back to E85 in the Spring and run leaner.

Tune your car on a dyno or at the track to see what your car likes as an air fuel ratio, you will be surprised that a lot of cookie cutter ratios don't make as much power on DSM's.

 

[Tarantula]

Hey Tarantula, before you go stating that someones post is not true you need to first know what might CHANGE in E85 to attribute to Jayrolla's post.

Take a look at where you are from, and where he is from?
Then ask yourself, will E85 have enough BTU's to start in the winter, do you really have a Winter where you are??

So Jayrolla is right, run a wideband as often as possible and especially if you are in the north around Fall to Winter and watch E85 turn into E70 and run much fatter then change back to E85 in the Spring and run leaner.

Tune your car on a dyno or at the track to see what your car likes as an air fuel ratio, you will be surprised that a lot of cookie cutter ratios don't make as much power on DSM's.

Yeah you got a point but this is your explanation and not the poster that I responded to. I was merely stating a fact that if the routine is the same (and to justify your post) and if E85 is the same (Not E70) than you won't have to make changes. Yeah I don't have winter, Not much of fuel changes for weather conditions but I guess I'm lucky like that. But I have to worry about other things that California has (Like their strict Smog rules) so he might be lucky in his own way.
I never change my fillup routine and where I live theres only ONE station in all of San Diego (like 100 mile radius or more) that sells the stuff. So my post to Jayrolla still stands in response to what he stated. You just made it a bit more specific and there fore this is my response to you.