Hard COLD start, bad ISC or something else??

[tsi1991awd]

91 Talon TSI AWD...it is hard to start in the morning. Its been cold here lately (WA) and it takes 3 or 4 times before the car starts. Then when it does start sometimes it'll stutter at a really low RPM before it starts warming up normal.

This is only on the first start of the day. Every other time it starts with no problems at all.

What could it be? I'm changing the spark plugs this weekend and the fuel filter next weekend. I have read the coolant temp sensor can cause it to have a hard start but this is only one time. It will start fine every other time. It idles fine, drives fine. Doesn't stall, die, etc. So I have no idea....

 

[tsi1991awd]

What would I need to check on the FIAV? How would I test it out? If it's leaking coolant, is there a way to make it stop....

Edit: Would an FIAV bypass work fine? What does the bypass do? Just bypass the coolant lines?

 

[tsi1991awd]

I've tried to look up on the FIAV bypass and didn't find much, there's only talk about the blockoff. Now, with the bypass, would I have to keep on the gas in the morning until it warmed up some, or will it be OK? I'm thinking this might be the cause of my hard start, and if it isn't then that's one more thing eliminated.

 

[djordan97]

clean your throttle body really really good. if that doesn't work then you need to mess with the isc and the fiav. mine did what yours is and I replaced my isc and cleaned my tb and it fixed the issue. like I said in your last thread.

 

[tsi1991awd]

Does the whole throttle body have to be removed to get the FIAV off?

 

[2GeNTSi]

I think I'm going to be getting a new one soon, I was thinking about it this past weekend but I didn't have enough time to finish everything.

I have a quick question though, are the first and second part the same thing just named differently?

95 Results

92 Results

I'm running a 6bolt in my 95 Talon and on the previous page about midway up is an image of basically what the sensor looks like. I don't know if I can run the 92 with the two prongs or not.

 

[tsi1991awd]

OK well I've been having this ongoing issue with a hard cold start. After the car finally starts, it has a lot of white smoke coming out. This is on cold mornings, I'm saying "OK it's just steam" since all cars do this when it's cold. There's quite a bit of white smoke, it's not billowing but there's a good amount. And also after it warms up, it still has white smoke going out the exhaust. I had my wife drive behind me, I romped on it and she said it's blowing white smoke when I get on it. So I'm wondering - is that a sign of blown turbo seals? I'm going to be getting a 16g soon anyways, but was wondering if blown seals could cause a hard start when it's cold??

Also, another thing that makes me think the seals are blown is the fact that I lose quite a bit of oil. I have one known oil leak at the filter housing (damn oil cooler leak) and I'm going to be putting in my FFFB soon to take care of all of that. It doesn't leak a whole lot and I'm sure it's not causing me to lose a quart or more in less than 500 miles.

 

[CorrupTTalon]

white smoke means burning coolant and blue smoke means burning oil.

also you can tell by the smell. two very distinct smells.

from what you describe, losing oil, i would investigate towards the idea of the turbo seals.

start by removing the downpipe and check for build up, also check the compressor side and look for oil. then check for shaft play, both in and out and up and down play.

how does your oil look? signs of water deposits? bubbles? is it super thick and lightly colored?

have you changed the oil in the past? you know you can damage the oil filter housing by tightening it too tight. to the point of mixing oil and coolant. you basically crush the honey comb inside.

 

[JusMX141]

If the turbine shaft seal is leaking, it would have no effect on your startup. Sometimes a leaking turbine seal can effect the vehicle's overall operation as it will allow the o2 sensor to become saturated with oil, but otherwise it shouldn't do anything because that oil is never reaching your engine.

 

[tsi1991awd]

white smoke means burning coolant and blue smoke means burning oil.

also you can tell by the smell. two very distinct smells.

from what you describe, losing oil, i would investigate towards the idea of the turbo seals.

start by removing the downpipe and check for build up, also check the compressor side and look for oil. then check for shaft play, both in and out and up and down play.

how does your oil look? signs of water deposits? bubbles? is it super thick and lightly colored?

have you changed the oil in the past? you know you can damage the oil filter housing by tightening it too tight. to the point of mixing oil and coolant. you basically crush the honey comb inside.

Well what I was thinking is maybe the oil is just blowing out of the turbo straight to the exhaust and is burning....would it still be blue then?

Also, there really isn't a coolant smell in the exhaust at all. Doesn't smell like burned oil either so I don't know.

Also, I removed the upper intercooler hose to do a couple things before, and there is oil all the way there. At the coupler for the BOV, in the upper tube. It doesn't reach the throttle body or anything, but there is oil there. Really light film/coating.

I've changed the oil, and I've added oil since losing it. The oil is regular colored, no coolant in it or anything. I'm aware of the oil cooler crushing issue, and it's possible that it's crushed. It's leaked since I bought the car. I'm going to get rid of it and put in the forward facing bracket so that gets rid of that problem. I'll check for shaft play soon....


Would a blown headgasket cause a hard start? What about FIAV problems?

 

[pj91gsx]

Would a blown headgasket cause a hard start?

my brothers bmw wasnt hard to start with a blown HG. There was so much water in the oil that it caused the motor to seize when I parked it though. It will cause lower compression, It depends how bad it is. If you have low compression then it will be hard to start. If your battery is near dead, or your firing order is wrong, or your fuel pump is not working then it will be hard to start.

 

[tsi1991awd]

I went out to the car, used the fuel pump check near the battery to see if my problem is fuel related and it was still hard to start. And since I was cranking for so long, it seemed like my battery was dieing. The dash lights got dim and the cranking slowed down, and it seemed as if it were dieing, but the engine didn't even start yet.

Then all of a sudden there was a little flutter like it was trying to start but didn't. I tried again, same thing. Tried again and it started up. I held the throttle at 3,000 for maybe 10 seconds and then it idled fine and warmed up and that was that.

Do you think the battery is screwed? I JUST did the alternator at the beginning of October. The battery checked out fine at Autozone, but they said it had a low charge, which I attributed to the alternator going out. But I don't know now. The thing is though, I can go out to the car and start it just fine if it hasn't been sitting for 8+ hours. So I can't really attribute that to battery issues.....or can I?

 

[tsi1991awd]

Sorry if this post is long, but I want to be as detailed as I can. I've been having this problem for a couple of months now, and I can't put my finger on what the problem is. When my car sits for say, 8 hours or more, it is extremely difficult to start. If I let it sit for 4 or 5 hours, it'll start right up. I usually park the car after work and don't drive it until the next morning, so it sits for 12 hours, sometimes less. Sometimes it'll take 3 or 4 tries before it starts, but lately it has been taking 3 or 4 MINUTES.

The car will just crank and crank and crank, but it will never start. Today, for example, I used the fuel pump check near the battery, just to see if the fuel pressure had gone down. I left it for about 30 seconds, heard the fuel pump running and everything. Tried starting the car, and nothing....just cranked. Took about 3 minutes before it finally tried starting, but didn't. Tried again but didn't start. Tried again, then started.

The thing is though, I was cranking for so long it seemed like the battery was dieing. The lights on the dash got dim and the cranking slowed down. Then after it started, I held the throttle at 3,000rpm for about 10 seconds then let off. It idled normal, warmed up fine, drove fine, etc. I just replaced the alternator in early October. I tested the battery at Autozone at the same time and it was fine, they said it had a low charge though. I attributed that to the dieing alternator but I don't know.....

Like I said, this only happens if the motor is cold and it's been sitting for a good while. It's been cold out in the mornings and these days it's pretty much just cold in general all day. So this is a problem no matter what time of day it is.

The CTS is reading like it's supposed to, I changed the fuel injector insulators, changed the alternator, radiator/hoses/thermostat. I'm at a loss here. I was thinking it was fuel pressure related, or just fuel related but like I said, I pressurize the system with the fuel pump check and it doesn't help.

Anybody have any ideas???

 

[Boost92awd]

Have you checked your ECU for leaking caps? You could try changing the fuel filter. Whens the last time you changed your plugs and wires? Any maintaince done to the car lately?

 

[tsi1991awd]

Forgot to add that. I did the fuel filter at the end of October. Did the spark plugs 3 days after I got the car. NGK 6es gapped at .28

Would the ECU caps cause the car not to start just when it was cold like that? I'd think that would be more of a consistant issue, and that it would cause drivability problems?

 

[Boost92awd]

you may want to check the two wires that go to the ECUs temp sensor in the t-stat housing. If they are broken, you will also have a hard time starting the car when cold.

 

[tsi1991awd]

Those wires are fine, and the CTS is fine. I ordered new caps for the ECU just because....I have no clue if they were ever changed or anything. Better safe than sorry.

 

[Turbo Talon DL]

I had a similar problem with my 1.8L for a while quite a few years ago now...I left the O2 sensor disconnected and the check engine light came on and gave me MAF codes: air intake temp sensor, barrometric pressure sensor, and coolant temp sensor. After I plugged it back in everything was fine.

 

[turboglenn]

Try turning the key to "ON" and let it prime for the 2 seconds it runs before turning the key to "start"

When you just hit the key straight to start the priming phase gets skipped and depending on the ECU some of them won't add extra fuel during cranking, some will.. not sure on the DSM ECU, but everytime some one tells me of this problem i tell them turn to ON, let prime, then start.. if it don't start in 2-3 seconds, repeat teh process. Although it's not normal this will give you an idea of where to start (or give us some info to further help you)

Does it smell flooded or act funny once it does start????

 

[tsi1991awd]

I'd like to point out, all the sensors are in tact, plugged in, etc. It doesn't throw any codes.

I always let it "prime", whether that does anything or not is another story. I even used the fuel pump check, which is actually better than just turning the key to "ON" because the pump is running for a while. No luck there. It doesn't smell like fuel or anything once it starts...it blows white smoke and lately once it starts, it dies within 2 or 3 seconds. I fire it up again and it will die again....it USED to fluctuate. It used to start up, idle at 2,000 and then drop to 1,750 or so then back up to 2,000...then repeat. If I gave it gas for 5 or 10 seconds, then it'd idle just fine. But now, like I said it will just die...that's why I hold the throttle at 3,000rpm for about 10 seconds and then it is just fine...idling at 2,000 then as it warms up it will drop. When it's fully warmed up, it idles at 750 perfect. No fluctuations or anything.

This leads me to believe the ISC is just fine....the FIAV on the other hand, I have no idea. Could the FIAV be the case?

Would it be possible that the battery is losing its charge after 8 hours and causes the car to just crank? When I had my Vigor, the battery was going out on me and it didn't do anything. The lights and everything would come on, but when I tried firing the motor up, it didn't even crank. So that's what makes me think the battery isn't the problem, because it cranks. But today it started to seem like it was dieing....so I have no clue.

 

[turboglenn]

Not the battery and when using the pump test plug you are only running the pump..when the car primes it fires the injectos to actually get fuel in the motor... you're just moving it around with the test plug.

When was the alst tune up? And although the sensors are plugged in that does not mean they are working.. have you looked at their readouts on a datalogger? Also it could be corroded wires under the insulation that you can't see. Sould be a CAS going bad, ignition module, coils etc..

 

[tsi1991awd]

There was no tune up, I just did fuel filter, plugs, oil change, coolant flush, etc.

 

[turboglenn]

There was no tune up, I just did fuel filter, plugs, oil change, coolant flush, etc.

Well, that is pretty much a tune up...wires and a few other odds and ends and you've got a deluxe tune up.

Fuel injection is simpler than carbs honesly, it has to be one of the following... Bad ECU (been mentioned) Bad sensors (mentioned but claimed to be good... I am willing to bet they weren't all checked besides a visual and wiggle) Then there's the wires that connect it all....If you have fuel, spark and ignition you have a running motor.. from there it's teh ECU, it's sensors and solenoids along with the wires that's it. If you check all of the ones that aren't emissions related you will find your problem i garauntee it.. I hate wiring but there's never been a fuel injection issue i didn't figure out with a voltmeter and maybe swapping a CAS here and there. usually will take you the better part of a day to check it all but you will find all sorts of stuff that's in need of repolacement and you will think you have a whole new car once you put it all back in spec. Not to mention you'll learn more in that afternoon of teting than any wyo-tech style school could teach you for less than 10k dollars.

 

[tsi1991awd]

Could you give me an idea of what sensors to test that would cause it to hard start like this? And also do you know where I could find proper voltage for each sensor?

 

[Turbo Talon DL]

I had an ECU from Foreign Auto Computer (not the best place to buy an ECU I learned that the hard way) go bad and all the car would do is crank over. None of the sensors would come on and neither did the CEL. When an ECU does go bad and you use an analog meter to pull the code it should be 'flatline' just like a heartrate monitor would show a dead person in the hospital. Does the stock boost gauge work when you turn the key to the 'ON' position? The Haynes manual has sections about testing/checking various sensors for voltage and resistances. You need to get some 'roach' clips and paper clips, connect them in between the sensor and the harness onto the appropriate 'pins', and observe the values. The sensors are usually powered by +5VDC which comes from the ecu.

 

[turboglenn]

Could you give me an idea of what sensors to test that would cause it to hard start like this? And also do you know where I could find proper voltage for each sensor?

Your typical datalogger will tel you everything you need to know if you have one

Other wise you want to check Coolant temp (both of them because one feedsteh ECU the other only the dash guage and i don't rememeber which one is which) Check the air temp (built into the MAF on a stock system) i cen give you specs on some of the sensors and ost can be checked with a vmulti-meter

YOu need to also check the coils and ignition module as well, the info on this can be found on the downladable manaul...i got it from postin on here asking wher to get it so a search will get you that, search "user manual" then filter by using my screen name

YOu really need an asciliscope to test teh CAS but swapping one out and back will be easier and cheaper as long as you know some other DSM owners.... same goes for the ignition module as they test god sometimes when they are really bad an d coils can do the same because a lot of imes they are effected by temperature when going bad

My medication is making it hard to see and type so i'm cutting short here... let me know anythiing specific you might need to know and once the initial effects of my meds wear off i'll try and helpo you more