Hard COLD start, bad ISC or something else??

[tsi1991awd]

91 Talon TSI AWD...it is hard to start in the morning. Its been cold here lately (WA) and it takes 3 or 4 times before the car starts. Then when it does start sometimes it'll stutter at a really low RPM before it starts warming up normal.

This is only on the first start of the day. Every other time it starts with no problems at all.

What could it be? I'm changing the spark plugs this weekend and the fuel filter next weekend. I have read the coolant temp sensor can cause it to have a hard start but this is only one time. It will start fine every other time. It idles fine, drives fine. Doesn't stall, die, etc. So I have no idea....

 

[tsi1991awd]

When I turn the key to "ON" the boost gauge goes up to zero and the CEL comes on for a few seconds then goes away...just like its supposed to.

I have a Haynes manual, just not sure where to start to look. I don't know any other DSMers, so swapping parts with them is pretty much not an option. I hope I can test everything out and get to the problem.

Like I said, this is pretty much only the first start of the day....cold weather. Sometimes if its warmer and its the first start, it'll take 3 or 4 tries.

Yesterday it took me 15 minutes. It started to get weak from cranking so much and the dash lights would go dim. I had my wifes car hooked up for a jump, but it didn't help much. It was stil weak trying to start up. Then it would act like it was going to start, for a split second and then itd go right back to cranking.

After 15 minutes, it finally started and tried to die so I gave it gas...it bogged and wouldn't go up in rpm, so I kept trying. It finally went up and I held the throttle at 5k for 15 seconds. During that time, my wife said that white smoke was pouring out of the exhaust. I'm wondering if the FIAV is leaking into the intake manifold...would this cause it to start up hard?

 

[tsi1991awd]

I've had this ongoing problem with hard starting when cold. When the engine's cold, been sitting 8 or so hours.....today I tried starting the car, and as it has been for the past week or so, it took about 15 minutes to start. It seems like it is dieing as it is cranking....seems like it's draining the battery or something. Keeps cranking but not firing up.

It'll try to fire up every once in a while but it won't...then goes back to cranking. I'm wondering if the coil pack would cause this to happen? It is ONLY on the first start of the day when it's cold (hasn't gotten over 45 the past week or two)....also it doesn't have any problems when I'm driving and doesn't have any problems after this first startup of the day.

Any help would be appreciated....I've done maintanence work, etc. Can't figure this out!

 

[lo_boost]

Have you checked the plugs?

 

[tsi1991awd]

Already changed them.

 

[Boosted98gsx]

It certainly can, but not likely. Get your battery checked.

 

[tsi1991awd]

It certainly can, but not likely. Get your battery checked.

I was thinking maybe the battery had somethhing to do with it....I replaced the alternator. The only thing is though, it cranks. When the battery was going out on my Vigor it didn't crank or anything. Then all of a sudden it would fire up, which was weird.

I don't know why it would crank if it was the battery....but when I hook the car up to my other car and jump it, it starts after 5 tries or so....and yesterday it got so weak that it was barely cranking, was really slow at doing so, and the lights were very very dim.

The ECU powers on and clicks though.

 

[tsi1991awd]

I have been having this hard start problem for a while now...when the engine's cold, it wouldn't start. It'd keep cranking forever. Lately it's been cranking for 15 minutes or more before it would start. Today I replaced the caps in the ECU. The old ones weren't bad, looks like they were fairly new and there were no burn marks at all. I changed the caps anyways.

That didn't help. I checked the resistance at the CTS and it was reading right. The car kept cranking at this point. The ECU caps didn't help.

So I took the plugs out, sprayed carb cleaner in each cylinder and put the plugs back in. Car fired right up!! So I now know that my hard start is because of a fuel delivery problem.

I am assuming since this only happens when the car is sitting for 8+ hours, the pressure in the fuel line is getting released somehow. I want to know where I should start?? Fuel pump? FPR? I'm planning on putting in a Walbro 255hp and AFPR anyways, but would these two things be the main source of my problem?

Thanks in advance.

 

[PieEyedPiper]

Someone please correct me, but I thought that the lines didn't actually hold much pressure when sitting and that the fuel pump turns on when cranking to pressurize the lines and deliver fuel.
This was the explanation given to me to describe why DSMs don't usually "fire right up" on the first revolution...Though sometimes mine does.

I don't know if that information is useful or not.

When was your fuel filter last replaced?

 

[tsi1991awd]

Well from what I've heard, pressure should be in the line, and when you crank the fuel pump kicks on....as I said, if it sits for more than 8 hours it takes forever to fire up. Otherwise it does on the first try.

Fuel filter was changed at the beginning of October

 

[turbodsm18]

You need four basic things in order for your car to run....

Timing, fuel, spark, compression......Maybe you fuel delivery is actually ok but spark isnt....Im not sure just trying to throw out ideas....

-Kevin-

 

[tsi1991awd]

You need four basic things in order for your car to run....

Timing, fuel, spark, compression......Maybe you fuel delivery is actually ok but spark isnt....Im not sure just trying to throw out ideas....

-Kevin-

No, fuel delivery is the issue. Like I said, the car was just cranking and cranking and cranking. It's been doing this for the past few weeks. It takes 15 minutes or more to get the car to start in the morning.

Today I took out the plugs and sprayed carb cleaner into the cylinders and put the plugs back in and it fired right up on the first try. Spark isn't the issue.

 

[Turbo Talon DL]

Have you tried running the car with the FIAV bypassed? If white smoke was 'pouring' out of the car then yes it is for sure coolant getting into the C.C. somehow. I dont think you have an electrical issue anymore. You answered my question in your last post so that tells me that everything is at least communicating with the ECU but whether or not they are supplying the right info is another story. I'd check compression, the HG, and that FIAV. The head could maybe have a small crack which is allowing water to enter the C.C. How do the spark plugs look? Have you drained the oil or the coolant to see if there are intermixed fluids?

 

[tsi1991awd]

Have you tried running the car with the FIAV bypassed? If white smoke was 'pouring' out of the car then yes it is for sure coolant getting into the C.C. somehow. I dont think you have an electrical issue anymore. You answered my question in your last post so that tells me that everything is at least communicating with the ECU but whether or not they are supplying the right info is another story. I'd check compression, the HG, and that FIAV. The head could maybe have a small crack which is allowing water to enter the C.C. How do the spark plugs look? Have you drained the oil or the coolant to see if there are intermixed fluids?

Yesterday I replaced the ECU caps. When I pulled them out, they looked good and there were no burn marks. I replaced them anyways. That didn't help. The car still just cranked and cranked.

So I pulled out all of the spark plugs and sprayed carb cleaner into the cylinders and put them back in. After that, it fired right up. So I know it is some type of fuel delivery issue. Since this only happens when the car is sitting for like 8+ hours, I'm assuming the fuel pressure is getting released somehow. Where should I start looking? Fuel pump? FPR? I've already changed the fuel filter and fuel injector insulators.

 

[Defiant]

One question, ONE thread.

 

[93'colttsi]

Im having the same problem as you are.

I have narrowed it down to the fuel pressure leaking out of the lines and air getting in there. I dont know why after minutes of cranking that it wont eventually fire, but maybe the air has problem getting removed from the lines.

Im going to have to pull my fuel pump and check the o-ring on the connector for the fuel line, (fuel pump slides into it) and also check all my seals and hoses in the fuel tank area.

This is the only thing I can think of that is causing my problems.

I had this problem in my colt even when it had the 1.5L engine in it. Now its the 4g63 and its ALWAYS done the same thing. I have replaced my ECU, injectors, plugs, ECT sensors, FPR, pretty much everything that could be related to a colt start issue.


I hope oneday to get this problem figured out.

 

[tsi1991awd]

Im having the same problem as you are.

I have narrowed it down to the fuel pressure leaking out of the lines and air getting in there. I dont know why after minutes of cranking that it wont eventually fire, but maybe the air has problem getting removed from the lines.

Im going to have to pull my fuel pump and check the o-ring on the connector for the fuel line, (fuel pump slides into it) and also check all my seals and hoses in the fuel tank area.

This is the only thing I can think of that is causing my problems.

I had this problem in my colt even when it had the 1.5L engine in it. Now its the 4g63 and its ALWAYS done the same thing. I have replaced my ECU, injectors, plugs, ECT sensors, FPR, pretty much everything that could be related to a colt start issue.


I hope oneday to get this problem figured out.

My problem ended up being a combo of bad battery, fouled plugs, CTS wiring (insulation at plug missing, causing short in connection), leaking injectors. Fixed and starts first time every time.

 

[dsmfa9nutter]

My problem ended up being Coolant Temp Sensor wiring

Someone give me some rep points!

 

[talon187]

you what about me? i said it was somthing to do with the coolant temp sensor from the get go

 

[dsmfa9nutter]

you what about me? i said it was somthing to do with the coolant temp sensor from the get go

Everyone that said temp sensor should. It's ALWAYS the temp sensor if the car starts up fine when it's warm out and then cranks forever before starting when it's cold. That should go in a sticky!

 

[91_Eclipse]

i have a 91 eclipse 2.0 1st gen mine had cold start probs too after i got it started it would run like crap till warmed up then drive and run like new if anyone has same prob with hard starts and you know for certain all your sensors are working and once you get it running after a minute or so the engine light comes on i would pull out the ECU and look over it mine turned out that the ECU was burned in certain spots its easy to take out and inspect i would do that first before wasting money on other things cause the ecu can cause loads of probs if not fully functional

 

[xsirspoolsalotx]

You just have to screw it in, no need to tape or lock-tite the sensor. I have the same exact problem as most of you. The car takes 5 or so cranks to start, then idle's low for a second. Then runs fine the rest of the day. It's only a problem when the engine is fully cooled down. I have definitely eliminated all other problems other than the sensor wiring to be bad. How much ohms should it be reading? And, I have a wire tuck which makes it very difficult to just "replace the wiring". Should i tap it from another source?